Where next for the Class 442s?

[phil-b259]

The latter is not really the case as by far the larger part of the GWML HST network is long distance running - I certainly wouldn't fancy my upcoming trip from Reading to Truro (c.4 hours) on some tuppeny ha'penny commuter train and the same goes for my fairly recent trips to/from Swansea.  The real situation is that the GWML network does have some heavy commuter traffic but the vast majority of it is from Swindon and east thereof and it is basically during peak hours only - the rest of the day it is an InterCity network in the market for longer distance leisure and business traffic and over much of its length competing with the motorways.  

 

You don't attract passengers by giving them grotty accommodation in carp trains when they can have their own air-conditoned personal transport with all mod cons - you have to offer something which can at least equal and ideally better that offering this  they can't get in their car or on a road coach.  If you just build long distance commuter trains (whatever on of those is) you are effectively building stock that will offer no commercial advantage during the rest of the day - Crossrail and Class 700 all over again but running even longer distances.  DafT hasn't lost the plot - they're still looking for it and they'll never find it because they lack the commercial knowledge and vision which created trains such as the HST in the first place.

 

To be fair though, when it comes to London commuter services, comfort has always been a secondary consideration - something the 1920/30/40s Southern Railway was well aware of. To be blunt you can make the stock as uncomfortable as you like (within reason) and you will still get hordes of commuters using them simply because driving into London in peak hours is such a nightmare - even in a luxury air conditioned car.

 

Of course on routes like the GWML the road option dies have a slight advantage over Southern (and to a lesser extent SE & SW services) thanks to the M4 penetrating quite a long way in with the A4 continuation being a half decent dual carriageway (compared to the slow slog up from Hooley along the A23), but the principle still stands.

 

What does take a hit, if trains are uncomfortable are the discretionary or non time critical journeys though.....

[black and decker boy]

Word on WNXX from GWR employee is that plans are being made for 4 sets of 442 top & tailed by 67s acting as loco hauled stock to be used by GWR as a short term stop gap due to delays in turbos moving west from Thames Valley but the west fleet of 150/1 having a set date to move to Northern. 1 set out based at Cardiff and 3 in Bristol is stated.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Word on WNXX from GWR employee

 

Ah.  God's Wishful Rumour-mill

[Joseph_Pestell]

Word on WNXX from GWR employee is that plans are being made for 4 sets of 442 top & tailed by 67s acting as loco hauled stock to be used by GWR as a short term stop gap due to delays in turbos moving west from Thames Valley but the west fleet of 150/1 having a set date to move to Northern. 1 set out based at Cardiff and 3 in Bristol is stated.

How long would one have to run with this set up (extra access charges for 2 locos, extra fuel, etc) before it costs more than a fairly simple modification to make the 442s compatible with the 67s (and others) for push-pull, work which would have short-term (4/5 years) benefits elsewhere?

['CHARD]

That one car could be kept in the national collection is a bonus as it probably represents the last design of BR 3rd rail electric stock. 

 

Sadly it doesn't, because Class 365, 456 and 465 are all later.

[Gwiwer]

Costs would include hire of 67s and their drivers as no GWR staff sign them to my knowledge.  You may then have route-training for the drivers to add on.  You would also have traction knowledge to learn and maintain for on-board staff and maintenance depots.  No-one in the SW knows 442s.  I'm guessing at least some of the electric gubbins would also have to be removed from them as well which also costs.

[Dunsignalling]

Costs would include hire of 67s and their drivers as no GWR staff sign them to my knowledge.  You may then have route-training for the drivers to add on.  You would also have traction knowledge to learn and maintain for on-board staff and maintenance depots.  No-one in the SW knows 442s.  I'm guessing at least some of the electric gubbins would also have to be removed from them as well which also costs.

There have been a number of T&T operations in the Taunton/Bristol/South Wales patch, using various locos, including Class 67s, in relatively recent times.

 

I also understand that some GW drivers trained on Class 67 a year ago when it was mooted they were to take over the Penzance Sleeper service from the Class 57s. This is not now going to happen and I am told the plan is for HST power cars to be used on the overnight trains once they are released from day-time duties.

 

There would be no train crew issues (bar door operation) in using Class 442s as hauled stock, and most of the "electrical gubbins" would disappear along with the central power car. The control gear would be isolated by removing the jumper cables from the cab ends. What remained would not be massively different from the Mk3 stock already familiar to the local maintainers. 

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

Costs would include hire of 67s and their drivers as no GWR staff sign them to my knowledge.  You may then have route-training for the drivers to add on.  You would also have traction knowledge to learn and maintain for on-board staff and maintenance depots.  No-one in the SW knows 442s.  I'm guessing at least some of the electric gubbins would also have to be removed from them as well which also costs.

 

It would be simpler, and cheaper, for GWR to train their own Drivers on the 67s - better to do that than hiring men who need to learn the road and leaving your own drivers sitting on their backsides on full pay while others do their work  Artisan train I suspect wouldn't be too big a task as the coaches would effectively become just that (but is the heating voltage compatible?).  Routes would need to be cleared for the locos and stock so that's another potential cost beyond the hire costs.  

 

In the end it will all be down to practicality, availability and cost and comparing that with whatever alternatives might be available but you can bet your bottom dollar that if they use loco-hauled stock it will be top & tailed as that is going to be cheaper than trying to run-round and all the messing about that will entail and probably cheaper than starting to go in for any sort of fancywork such as a push-pull conversion of the 442s.  And of course it also depends to what extent GWML electrification will actually allow dmu sets to be released to other work - possibly very little in May next year but quite a step forward in December (officially and possibly slightly earlier in reality).

[dale159]

The GBRf 73/9s for Caledonian Sleeper services have a different arrangement for the high level connections.

 

Looking at pictures on Flickr, the 73/9s in Caledonian Sleeper livery have lost their high level air pipes but retain the high level jumper whereas the ordinary GBRf 73/9s have retained everything albeit stowed away at a funny angle as not to block the Wipac lights.

 

And of course a re-engineered 73 has more diesel power than original so could be well suited as a push/pull loco for a 442 away from the juice.

 

Dale

Edited September 8, 2016 by dale159

[modfather]

I'd be more inclined to expect 67/mk2 sets appearing in the south west to cover the cracks.

 

Don't let me stop the wild speculation though.

[nightstar.train]

 

I also understand that some GW drivers trained on Class 67 a year ago when it was mooted they were to take over the Penzance Sleeper service from the Class 57s. This is not now going to happen and I am told the plan is for HST power cars to be used on the overnight trains once they are released from day-time duties.

 

John

Ooo. A sleeper HST. That sounds cool. Will they actually run top and tail? Would seem more sensible than running them coupled as a sort of engine. Can they deliver the correct voltage for hauled stock ETH?

[frobisher]

Ooo. A sleeper HST. That sounds cool. Will they actually run top and tail? Would seem more sensible than running them coupled as a sort of engine. Can they deliver the correct voltage for hauled stock ETH?

I'd have thought the modification would be relatively trivial (taking the three phase AC to either a single phase or DC supply).

[dale159]

As long there were enough coaches available to keep the existing services running while a full rake was rewired for HST power cars as obviously it wouldn't be possible to do them one at a time.

 

Dale

[Gwiwer]

Ooo. A sleeper HST. That sounds cool. Will they actually run top and tail? Would seem more sensible than running them coupled as a sort of engine. Can they deliver the correct voltage for hauled stock ETH?

 

 

I'd have thought the modification would be relatively trivial (taking the three phase AC to either a single phase or DC supply).

 

A Night Riviera formation typically comprises 3 or 4 sleeping cars each of which is ETH index 7X plus three "sitters" of which the brake is 5X, the all-seated car is 6X and the lounge is 14X.  Occasionally additional vehicles are included for traffic or stock balancing purposes which will take the ETH load to above 50X.  The class 57 locos are ETH-rated 100 so have plenty in reserve in that department.  The X indicates 600a wiring not 400a and I believe all use 1000V single phase.

 

To utilise HST power cars as sole traction these would need some degree of modification.  They have worked the sleepers as traction a couple of times in emergency though with the 57 "inside" to provide train power.  Their three-phase would need to be altered to a single-phase output if they were used alone and would thus render them useless for HST workings.  They would be, as the 57s are now, a small unique pool of traction incompatible with anything else in daily use.  

 

But where they could score is in allowing longer formations by use of modified HST trailers (three-phase to single-phase again) offering more seats and potentially being made available for a day trip as well as overnight.  Four or five seated cars might make that viable even if the sleepers were locked out of use and included as dead weight.  As an example the down train which arrives Penzance around 08.00 could return about 09.00 arriving in London some six hours later (being generous), retire to Old Oak Common and be serviced before once again taking up overnight duties at Paddington by 22.00 for 23.45 departure.

 

Whether any of the former class 442 vehicles would be of any use for such an operation ....... frankly I doubt it as they are quite different in many respects and there will soon be a glut of retired standard Mk3 HST trailers.

[cheesysmith]

Altering the HST power car to provide a DC ETH would not be too difficult. You could just get brush to knock up a rectifier and put it into the ex luggage compartment. Then you could have both the 3 phase and normal DC, but you would have to modify the engine governor to a higher RPM for the ETH.

[modfather]

Altering the HST power car to provide a DC ETH would not be too difficult. You could just get brush to knock up a rectifier and put it into the ex luggage compartment. Then you could have both the 3 phase and normal DC, but you would have to modify the engine governor to a higher RPM for the ETH.

Not quite that easy. The train supply circuit already runs the engine up to a higher rpm idle. You also don't have that much space to play with in the back due to the emergency gear, mdec and atp.

[royaloak]

If it was possible to work them push-pull with a locomotive, surely a better proposition would be to wire them for Blue Star/AAR/whatever the new CAF stock is getting, removing the slidey rail/traction equipment and actually use them in revenue service elsewhere in the country.

 

Cheers

David

Who wants a fleet of no PRM-TSI compliant trains that will cost a lot of money to get usable in the short term and a hell of a lot of money to make PRM-TSI compliant in the long (post 2019) term?

 

Realistically its a one way trip to Rotherham because they are not much use as they are, legislation has moved on and although decent units they are old in the grand scheme of things!

Edited September 11, 2016 by royaloak

[royaloak]

Altering the HST power car to provide a DC ETH would not be too difficult. You could just get brush to knock up a rectifier and put it into the ex luggage compartment. Then you could have both the 3 phase and normal DC, but you would have to modify the engine governor to a higher RPM for the ETH.

Scotrail are taking HSTs in 2+4 and 2+ 5 formations meaning there will be lots of spare trailer coaches around but not many Power Cars so why would you modify a load of old coaches when there are spare coaches available but no Power Cars to haul them?

[royaloak]

A 317 v 442 for passenger comfort? That is a no-brainer. I shan't be sorry to see the last of them on GN services.

 

Stewart

A 317 V 442 for leasing costs, loading times, running costs is also a no brainer, guess which will win yours or mine?

[Glorious NSE]

and there will soon be a glut of retired standard Mk3 HST trailers.

 

Also plenty of recently refurbished hauled day stock courtesy Anglia...

[royaloak]

Word on WNXX from GWR employee is that plans are being made for 4 sets of 442 top & tailed by 67s acting as loco hauled stock to be used by GWR as a short term stop gap due to delays in turbos moving west from Thames Valley but the west fleet of 150/1 having a set date to move to Northern. 1 set out based at Cardiff and 3 in Bristol is stated.

That was last weeks rumour, this week its Plymouth HS men working the 2+4 sets, next week it will be something else.

 

GWR have made their feeling known on being forced to take on these worn out units!

[royaloak]

How long would one have to run with this set up (extra access charges for 2 locos, extra fuel, etc) before it costs more than a fairly simple modification to make the 442s compatible with the 67s (and others) for push-pull, work which would have short-term (4/5 years) benefits elsewhere?

Plus hiring in drivers etc?

 

How easy is it to convert the 442s to work with the 67s?

I would say not very easy at all!

Edited September 11, 2016 by royaloak

[royaloak]

I also understand that some GW drivers trained on Class 67 a year ago when it was mooted they were to take over the Penzance Sleeper service from the Class 57s. This is not now going to happen and I am told the plan is for HST power cars to be used on the overnight trains once they are released from day-time duties.

 

John

You understand wrong, DB would only supply the 67s if they also supplied the drivers, an option not acceptable to GWR hence the continuation with the 57s on the sleeper.

 

What is your source for the HST PCs taking over the sleepers?

 

If this idea is happening why have GWR just taken on another 2 57s?

Edited September 11, 2016 by royaloak

[royaloak]

It would be simpler, and cheaper, for GWR to train their own Drivers on the 67s - better to do that than hiring men who need to learn the road and leaving your own drivers sitting on their backsides on full pay while others do their work  Artisan train I suspect wouldn't be too big a task as the coaches would effectively become just that (but is the heating voltage compatible?).  Routes would need to be cleared for the locos and stock so that's another potential cost beyond the hire costs.  

All well and good if the loco supplier agrees to it, what if they want to use their drivers as well as supplying the locos!

Edited September 11, 2016 by royaloak

[nightstar.train]

Scotrail are taking HSTs in 2+4 and 2+ 5 formations meaning there will be lots of spare trailer coaches around but not many Power Cars so why would you modify a load of old coaches when there are spare coaches available but no Power Cars to haul them?

Scotrail aren't taking the whole fleet. I think GWR have 52 sets, and Scotrail are taking less than 40. So there'll be a number of spare power cars.

 

I would hope that Scotrail are being sensible and storing enough coaches to lengthen all the HSTs to 2+6, or whatever the platforms will handle.