Where next for the Class 442s?

[phil-b259]

That's a good question but would there actually be any need for it as they have a perfectly good friction braking system ?

 

 

Like I said, regen braking will result in less wear on brake components leading to them lasting longer. While this does obviously give cost savings (and is cleaner for maintenance staff) there is also the wider environmental picture to consider in that given the way human society is progressively destroying the planet through over consumption is it not a noble idea to try and be as efficient as possible. As such returning kinetic energy (movement) back to electrical energy so that another train can use it, rather than simply turning it into heat via friction brakes is the way forward and if the EE546 motors cannot handle that then its a good enough reason to junk them.

Edited October 1, 2017 by phil-b259

[Peter Kazmierczak]

When I first met my wife, she had a flat right by the Brighton line at South Croydon. Her nice new white car, parked outside, gradually gained little brown spots from all the passing trains.....

[keefer]

The regen braking would seem to depend more on the infrastructure being able to redistribute/ absorb the currents generated. It's easier to manage if there are other trains in the area which can use it, but I've read on here that some schemes were built to a price and are therefore more limited in overall electrical capacity.

[Gwiwer]

 

On slightly more recent developments - these are rumoured to be 442's working under their our power tomorrow  ................................http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K13613/2017/10/02/advancedhttp://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K79502/2017/10/02/advanced

Oh - words ruder than bottom.

Almost passing my front door but at times when I have to be elsewhere

[phil-b259]

.... but I've read on here that some schemes were built to a price and are therefore more limited in overall electrical capacity.

 

To an extent you are right, but in recent decades there has been quite a lot of money spent on enhancements as with trains coming with air con, wifi and what not, they were drawing more current than the slammers did anyway. Moving forward re-gen braking is already common in OLE equipped areas and its extension to the DC network was the logical next step.

 

I guess its a bit like the whole electric car thing - which do you provide first the cars or the charging points as a good BCR to invest the latter is directly related to the former, with both ideally needing to grow at the same rate.

 

While I'm not sure of the current situation on the Portsmouth route, I believe the Desiros can technically do regen braking under DC so given the current traction setup in the 442s needs replacing (regardless of how good the motor may be, the 1960s designed package cannot achieve the acceleration rates essential if they are to keep pace with the Desiro fleet) its logical to provide the regen braking ability in any case.

[phil-b259]

When I first met my wife, she had a flat right by the Brighton line at South Croydon. Her nice new white car, parked outside, gradually gained little brown spots from all the passing trains.....

 

Indeed - and while not ideal if the energy has to be dissipated as heat through resistors, doing so still brings many benefits compared to friction braking.

[Southernman46]

Oh - words ruder than bottom.

Almost passing my front door but at times when I have to be elsewhere

Looking forward to the whine as they pass but a) they have to be 442's b) they have to run c) It will be raining and feckin' grey as usual as it's been for every 442 transfer so far ....................

 

 

I think (stand to be corrected) the only site where regen is used on Wessex ATM is between St Johns (Woking) and Barton Mill (Basing) as indicated by "PR" signs trackside

[Zomboid]

The regen braking would seem to depend more on the infrastructure being able to redistribute/ absorb the currents generated. It's easier to manage if there are other trains in the area which can use it, but I've read on here that some schemes were built to a price and are therefore more limited in overall electrical capacity.

On DC, regen is only about having other trains in the area to use the power. Diode rectifiers don't allow current to flow towards the grid, and the strength or otherwise of the network is not really a factor in that.

A weak network supports a sparser train service so less chance of there being a train to take the power. If there's no receptivity then the regenerating train detects that and stops trying to regenerate.

 

I believe the old woodhead locos supported regen, and there were large resistor grids at the substations in case there weren't any trains around to use the power, because they couldn't detect receptivity.

[Gwiwer]

On DC, regen is only about having other trains in the area to use the power. Diode rectifiers don't allow current to flow towards the grid, and the strength or otherwise of the network is not really a factor in that.

A weak network supports a sparser train service so less chance of there being a train to take the power. If there's no receptivity then the regenerating train detects that and stops trying to regenerate.

I believe the old woodhead locos supported regen, and there were large resistor grids at the substations in case there weren't any trains around to use the power, because they couldn't detect receptivity.

The EM1 and EM2 locos built for the Woodhead electrification did indeed have regen. Working in pairs they could usually help their mates coming the other way over the long steep gradients especially Worsborough. They were contemporaneous with the Australian NSWGR 46 class (also 1500vDC locos) which also worked heavy freights over steep gradients in their case through the Blue Mountains. All could also "motor in regen" which I understand to be having their traction motors powered by their own regeneration rather than by another loco. That ability was built out of the later Aussie DC classes 85 and 86.

 

Back to the topic and if 442s could motor in regen over the hills of the Pompey Direct they might not need to draw much current at all south of Chalk Tunnel.

[EastbournePigLover]

I used to ride 442s from 1991 onwards, from Bstoke to Waterloo, i was 5 the first time and have always loved them, then i relocated to Eastbourne some years ago and low and behold having needed to travel from here or Brighton up into London it would seem the 442s followed me over here lol it is a shame that from now on i will need to specifically travel to see them again but to me it will all be worth it

Edited October 15, 2017 by EastbournePigLover

[John M Upton]

Out of interest is that open access operator who are supposed to be taking the six SWR supposedly don't want actually still going ahead as it seems to have fallen very quiet lately.

[uax6]

Passed Papworths at Ely Yesterday, and there are now just 4 units sat at the stops.... I hope it was worth them putting in all that track for such a short use.....

 

Andy G

[Gwiwer]

Reports, without authenticated source, are appearing which suggest 2x442 (10WES or 10PIG as you care) are to assume a Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour roster from December.

 

I have some problems with this. Firstly the source is neither offered nor corroborated. Then there is the matter of crew training. There is no current 442 traction knowledge on SWR. Then the sefs would have to run "as is" with existing motors and couplers and very much in "as stored" condition.

 

However on the basis that there is no smoke without fire and my source is the normally reputable Southern Electric Group then watch this space .....

[Glorious NSE]

Passed Papworths at Ely Yesterday, and there are now just 4 units sat at the stops.... I hope it was worth them putting in all that track for such a short use.....

There's going to be lots of call for storing assorted MUs by 2020...

[phil-b259]

Reports, without authenticated source, are appearing which suggest 2x442 (10WES or 10PIG as you care) are to assume a Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour roster from December.

 

I have some problems with this. Firstly the source is neither offered nor corroborated. Then there is the matter of crew training. There is no current 442 traction knowledge on SWR. Then the sefs would have to run "as is" with existing motors and couplers and very much in "as stored" condition.

 

However on the basis that there is no smoke without fire and my source is the normally reputable Southern Electric Group then watch this space .....

It wouldn't surprise me if the people writing the bid (and thus pushing the rapid introduction so as to say they have 'delivered on their franchise commitments) had no knowledge of the specifics and are thus assuming the 442s can be put into service 'just like that'

 

If true then Portsmouth line commuters will suffer as the shortcomings of the 442s as they currently exsist are very real.

[DY444]

But would they be compatible with regenerative braking ? We hear how the 800s are designed around friction braking only coming into play at very low speeds / emergencies as this reduces wear / the frequency of replacement of brake pads / discs / calipers.

 

In diesel mode the dynamic braking is disabled on 800s.  Rheo is only available in AC mode when the main circuit breaker is open or the ole is not receptive to regen.  802s do have rheo in diesel mode.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

All's quiet at a rather damp Bournemouth depot this evening.....

 

[Gwiwer]

All's quiet .....

Except for the gentle hum of EE507 traction motors

[D854_Tiger]

In diesel mode the dynamic braking is disabled on 800s.  Rheo is only available in AC mode when the main circuit breaker is open or the ole is not receptive to regen.  802s do have rheo in diesel mode.

 

The 800s have a small rheo suitable to provide regenerative braking through neutral sections.

 

As you say, not suitable for diesel working, however by all accounts the 800s are going to have rehostatic braking retrofitted because of the electrification delays.

 

I could be wrong but it sounds as if all the various retrofits (engine uprated etc) will effectively turn all the class 800s into class 802s then later, once electrification is complete, I believe the plan will be to convert them again either to class 801 (all electric) or possibly back to some sub-class of class 800.

 

I can imagine the bi-modes engines being derated but presumably it would make sense to keep the rheostatic brakes once they've gone to the trouble of fitting them.

[D854_Tiger]

Reports, without authenticated source, are appearing which suggest 2x442 (10WES or 10PIG as you care) are to assume a Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour roster from December.

 

I have some problems with this. Firstly the source is neither offered nor corroborated. Then there is the matter of crew training. There is no current 442 traction knowledge on SWR. Then the sefs would have to run "as is" with existing motors and couplers and very much in "as stored" condition.

 

However on the basis that there is no smoke without fire and my source is the normally reputable Southern Electric Group then watch this space .....

 

 

They were used on the Portsmouth direct line previously and not all that long ago.

 

Around the time Virgin were taking over XC, I went down to the IOW Steam Railway on a Saturday, HST to Portsmouth Harbour and returned via London with a Wessex unit.

 

That must have been around fifteen years ago.

[uax6]

just been past Papworths, looks like there are still two units there, but there are some new arrivals, 1st class FGW 125 trailers. I couldn't see how many as they were in the furthest road, but if they are against the stops then I think there must be 6 in there.

 

Andy G

[4630]

South Western Railway has appointed Kiepe Electric UK for the refurbishment of the 442s.

 

The press release isn't on the SWR website yet but here is the text from the release issued on 25th October;

 

South Western Railway (SWR) announced today that as part of its £1.2bn investment plans, it has signed a £multi-million contract with Kiepe Electric UK Ltd to refurbish its 18 incoming Class 442 trains.

 

The enhancement programme includes full interior refurbishment; customer improvements to include real-time information systems and at seat power points; and performance enhancements to include new traction equipment and regenerative braking systems.

 

The train enhancement programme is part of South Western Railway’s £1.2bn investment plan to transform the customer experience during its tenure. The plan includes the introduction of new and as-new train fleets to increase capacity; longer, more frequent trains; quicker journey times and better connectivity; station improvements and a better ticket buying experience. It will also work to support the communities it serves, support regional economic growth and improve its social and environmental responsibility. 

Neil Drury, SWR Engineering Director said: “We are delighted to have appointed Kiepe Electric to carry out the refurbishment and retraction of our incoming fleet of Class 442 trains. They have an excellent track record in this field and we know that they will produce a high quality product for our customers which will include refurbished interiors, new information systems and improved performance.”

 

Tim Jenkins, Managing Director Kiepe Electric UK Ltd said: “We are delighted to have been awarded this contract. It is a further testament to Kiepe Electric UK’s, skill, capability and flexible approach in supporting customers to improve their rolling stock through delivering complex turnkey projects”.

The Class 442 trains will operate on fast journeys on the London to Portsmouth route via Guildford, Haselmere and Petersfield from December 2018, with standard class passengers benefiting from more spacious 2+2 seating. 

 

The trains will have refurbished interiors including quality Axminster carpets, at seat power for mobile devices and real-time information displays.  Additional benefits for First Class customers include new leather seats and new tables incorporating innovative inductive charging.

 

Work will be undertaken at Eastleigh with investment being made in local facilities as well as procurement from Axminster Carpets, located on the South Western network.

The Class 442 fleet will be maintained and overhauled at SWT’s depot facility in Bournemouth, safeguarding local jobs and providing further investment in facilities and capabilities within its operation.

 

The traction upgrade element will see the existing DC traction equipment replaced with state-of-the-art AC equipment incorporating IGBT technology from Kiepe Electric Dusseldorf. This will increase the reliability and efficiency of the trains by removing the life expired equipment. In conjunction with the new traction equipment will be a new braking system from Knorr-Bremse Rail Vehicle Systems which will improve the environmental performance of the trains and lower operating costs by enabling regenerative braking.

 

The refurbishment will include new seats and carpets with at seat power in all classes and table top charging facilities in 1^st Class. The environmental benefits also extend to the vehicle interiors with the installation of LED lighting. Wi-Fi will be provided throughout and disabled passengers will be catered for with universal accessible toilets and seating facilities.

Edited October 25, 2017 by 4630

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Interesting that the fleet will be "maintained and overhauled" at Bournemouth.

[4630]

Interesting that the fleet will be "maintained and overhauled" at Bournemouth.

 

 

I've taken the wording in the press release to mean that some work will be taken at Eastleigh - probably the replacement of the traction equipment and brakes - as that's probably easier with the heavy lifting facilities that still exists at Eastleigh.  The remaining work on the interiors, plus re-livery and commissioning to take place at Bournemouth.  But that's only speculation on my part.

 

Still, good to see and excellent news.

Edited October 25, 2017 by 4630

[Peter Kazmierczak]

SWT did put in a new paint shop at BM a few years ago, so that makes sense. Of course all the 442s used to be at BM, though with the new traction package it looks like much re-training will be on the cards for the artisan staff.

 

I read it as that when in service, the 442s will be allocated to and maintained at BM. Though three new roads will be provided at Fratton for overnight stabling, I imagine that still means there will be quite a few ECS moves, unless some diagrams include early Poole / Bournemouth - Waterloo turns and corresponding late Waterloo - Poole returns.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Peter Kazmierczak