Fenman Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 ... Personally I would say that one of the driving cars deserves saving by the NRM due to the number of 'firsts' the class demonstrated and its celebrity status (the first 23m EMU, the first Mk3 with power operated doors, Its role as a flagship new train which launched NSE, etc) - but like I said above it needs to be displayed indoors like the 4COR driving car, not left to rot like the 2HAP. Don't they also still hold the world speed record for 3rd rail traction? Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 And during the winter, wheeeeeeeee BANG, on the ice as the motor coach struggled for grip Don't they also still hold the world speed record for 3rd rail traction? Paul In freezing conditions yes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) The 442s are based on but are by no means standard Mk3 body shells. The electrical gear is second-hand and dates from the mid 1960s though is to a design dating back, in its fundamentals, to the 1930s. Everything about them is old and tired despite the comfort many regular users enjoy compared with more recent stock. They are, by virtue of their Mk3 origins, banned from some sharp curves which has always prevented them reaching Littlehampton (banned Arundel Junction - Littlehampton Junction) and I believe they are also banned from Cosham Junction - Portcreek Junction which would preclude use on Porstmouth - Cardiff duties. It cost BR dear when Mk3 stock came out to realign the tracks through Northam Junction (a substation had to be moved and the tracks are in a brick-walled cutting) so that these vehicles could reach Southampton. There should be no shortage of 377 / 387 stock for Southern / GatEx duties now and the 700s are entering service on Thameslink. No comments required upon the quality of seating there compared with the 442s! They are off to storage but no-one has taken any interest in them so this is likely to be a step on the way to scrap. They have no future as third-rail units and are a unique and not entirely trouble-free type which makes them unattractive to any operator. As for the third-rail speed record does not a 4-Rep unit hold that? Albeit very unofficially. I have mostly enjoyed their stay of execution on the Brighton expresses despite their nickname of plastic pigs. They represented the last in a long line of soft-seated stock which was OK to sit in but a little rough riding at times. Modern stock is better-riding but the seats are woeful. There was always a touch of class about taking a seat next to a wide window and having the trolley service come through. "Wine, beer or coffee tonight, Sir?" was not an unknown opening line. Not, perhaps, the style of an at-seat Pullman meal or bacon-sandwich snack but a generation later they were as good as it got. From Bacon Belle to Plastic Pig. Farewell 442s. The last gasp of Southern style. Replaced by board-seated inner-suburban style 387s which no-one seems to like. Edited September 1, 2016 by Gwiwer 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 Some rhetorical questions that just came to mind: How much would it cost to get one into preservation? What location could cope with a five-car unit, and that could include both storing and running it? What facilities and skills would be needed to keep one running? I think the answers to all the above might be 'not worth the attempt'. However, hopefully somehow one might get to survive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) Don't they also still hold the world speed record for 3rd rail traction? Didn't the 387s break the 108mph record? DfT actually offered the 442 as part of the TransPennine franchise with the idea they could be converted to LHCS with cabs but First didn't want them. Unless an overseas buyer could be found for at least some of them (New Zealand?) then it's probably scrap. Cheers David Edited September 1, 2016 by DavidB-AU Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2016 Notice the stupid headboard requires the night headlight to be used during the day. Would be an interesting one at an enquiry if God forbid it killed someone on the track. ' why was the night headlight being used instead of the serviceable day headlight?....' Hi Russ, What are the reasons for having different day and night headlight positions? Or is the position irrelevant, but the bulbs different? Cheers Ben Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) Hi Russ, What are the reasons for having different day and night headlight positions? Or is the position irrelevant, but the bulbs different? Cheers Ben Morning BenThe lamp units themselves are different, as the nigh unit is designed not to dazzle oncoming trains where the day unit is more akin to a car headlamp being on main beam. Both units have standard halogen 55w bulbs but the shading over the bulbs are different The day setting is to make trains more visible to track workers Edited September 1, 2016 by russ p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2016 The night one is set to reduce dazzle to other trains but provide enough light to pick up reflective signs, the day one is set to be visible from maximum distance for track workers. Bit like full beam and dip on a car really. According to a fitter I knew who once worked on them no two are really wired the same with the wiring being put where it'd fit by the guys working that shift which caused a lot of problems initially in finding the loom with the fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 zomboid: those Derby built trains you write about are little more than meccano sets being assembled here. Certainly your are not talking about the same Derby that used to design and build from the rail upwards. More like (plastic) Lego bricks than quality metal Meccano? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2016 From Bacon Belle to Plastic Pig. Farewell 442s. The last gasp of Southern style. Replaced by board-seated inner-suburban style 387s which no-one seems to like. That's progress. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2016 That's progress. Mike. I wonder which toc will be the first to be brave enough to scrap seating on short commuter hauls in the name of increased capacity..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D854_Tiger Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Isle of White. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 I wonder which toc will be the first to be brave enough to scrap seating on short commuter hauls in the name of increased capacity..... London Overground... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 If they were refurbished to the same standard as the Chiltren railways MK3 coaches and converted for push pull they would be great trains. Half the class 67s have no booked work. There are plenty of class 90s in storage as well. They would be good for the Settle Carlisle line. Kyle of lochalsh or west highland services. It's crazy that these are being put into storage while there are overcrowded trains elsewhere. You are forgetting the effect of the Anglia franchise announcement. Dual voltage EMUs like the 379s, AC EMUs like the 360s plus the entire fleet of Sprinters and Turbostar DMUs will all be looking for a new home in the next five years so why would any leasing company spend money on an assert like the 442s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 Some rhetorical questions that just came to mind: How much would it cost to get one into preservation? What location could cope with a five-car unit, and that could include both storing and running it? What facilities and skills would be needed to keep one running? I think the answers to all the above might be 'not worth the attempt'. However, hopefully somehow one might get to survive. 1. A lot. More than you or I could afford. Not the allure of steam to attract the big bucks and not even the romance of the Brighton Belle project to attract corporate funding and the middle-bucks. 2. The preserved 4-Cor cannot be found a home and is currently distributed between two sites a couple of hundred miles apart; hardly ideal when it is supposedly under restoration and preserved. Many more recent units which have entered "preservation" have failed to be conserved to a meaningful extent and are therefore not really "preserved" at all. A few haven't lasted and are no longer with us. If a home cannot be found for a currently-preserved 4-car unit what chance a 5-car unit? 3. A working knowledge of 1963-style traction and control gear, a functional knowledge of Mk3 vehicle construction, access to vehicle diagrams and drawings, a safe working environment ideally under cover, tools, spares, money ..... The traction equipment is represented in preservation by the 4-Vep and other units already privately owned. The general Mk3 design is not about to become extinct just yet but in any case is already represented by the prototype HST coaches. Unless someone with a very significant sum of money, ongoing reserves of cash and a suitable private location for the unit comes forward I see little reason to preserve one as there is nothing sufficiently unique about a 442 to trouble the National Collection. All the above notwithstanding I can confirm that the suggestion to preserve a 442 has been mentioned (in a sufficiently public place, their bimonthly magazine, that this can be posted) within the Southern Electric Group who own the holding charity and company responsible for the preserved 4-Cor 3142. Reversing that number there is a notional preference to retain (44)2413 though I stress this is NOT official policy and I am NOT speaking for nor on behalf of the SEG. Anyone with serious intent, resources or expertise is however cordially invited to contact and discuss their position with the SEG via admin@southernelectric.org.uk Off-topic but anyone willing or able to assist with the 4-Cor in any way (practical, financial or administrative) is also invited to contact the same address. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) London Overground...And SWT - their new class 700s feature 2+1 seating (as opposed to the 2+2 or 3+2 typically used) with extra wide aisles to accomadate lots of standing passengers instead. While obviously a step backwards in passenger comfort - I do sometimes feel as though people complaining about such things rather misses the point - namely with the physical capacity to handle trains totally maxed out, what else is the railway industry supposed to do? Edited September 1, 2016 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 SWT - their new class 700s Class 707s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2016 It's a difficult call in preservation of modern units, no one could see diesels as desirable either at one time. Problem is by the time they are old enough to stir nostalgia most are gone. Where would Western and Southern preservation, particularly, be without the anomaly of Barry? There's a good reason the majority of preserved coaching stock is mk1's as they were coming out of service as the preservation movement really took off. No doubt people will regret them going but laying third rail on a preservation site would require a lot more restrictions on access and better training than currently as it has implications for engineering and emergency access. I've been part of briefings for the fire brigade on third rail risks and even though they said their hoses shouldn't make the circuit we pointed out it only needs to ground to a metal fence or similar lineside equipment and their insulation is gone. They agreed that in an emergency there was a definite risk that that could occur as people focus on the rescue not those sort of details. The Science Museum and NRM already have too much to display so the decisions need to be hard and personally I don't think there's much ground breaking about a unit that was basically a cheap fix using recycled parts. It did the job fairly well but apart from the 'comfy cushions' it didn't feel like a leap forward over the Veps etc and I regularly rode both and didn't mind which turned up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Central Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Personally I would say that one of the driving cars deserves saving by the NRM due to the number of 'firsts' the class demonstrated and its celebrity status (the first 23m EMU, the first Mk3 with power operated doors, Its role as a flagship new train which launched NSE, etc) - but like I said above it needs to be displayed indoors like the 4COR driving car, not left to rot like the 2HAP. A 442 Driving Trailer has indeed been earmarked for the National Collection at the NRM, the Advisory Board discussed it late last year I believe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 Thinking aloud: If 33/1s can work a 442, then perhaps a third rail wouldn't be required? Could Swanage use one in that arrangement as a secondary to their 4TC? What other heritage lines have a 33/1 that could perhaps make use of a unit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 The discussion of only 33/1's able to work with these is a misnomer. Extentions to the brake piping is readily available for low piped traction. Further, the DEMU's and other slam door stock was sold off to preservationists for a quid a pop. If these 442's are as useless to the leasing company as suggested, if they cannot garner monetary gain via the scrapman, the same may well happen again. C6T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2016 Storage is the issue for many railways including Swanage. Steam earns the money so two sets to run with 33's doesn't really make financial sense for occasional use. They've gone for dmu's for Project Wareham for a standard form of traction so drivers only need to keep current in that and there's a spare. Getting two, two car units to mainline standard is cheaper than two 33's and 9 coaches altogether. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 1, 2016 ISTR a story when the 442s were being built. The manufacturer of the sliding/plug door equipment saw the 442 and said it was the worst installation of his kit he'd ever seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 As much as I like the 442s as something a bit different, I have to say, I can't see one being preserved, for the reasons mentioned already. Unfortunately as time goes on, it will get harder and harder to preserve things, especially big things like trains, planes, and so on, as the currently preserved ones are joined by this decades retirees, then the next decades, in 50 years time we'll really be struggling for space as everything becomes multiple units, in 100 years time, where will they all go...? Maybe we also need to plan ahead about HOW we're going to preserve things in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 The discussion of only 33/1's able to work with these is a misnomer. Extentions to the brake piping is readily available for low piped traction. Further, the DEMU's and other slam door stock was sold off to preservationists for a quid a pop. If these 442's are as useless to the leasing company as suggested, if they cannot garner monetary gain via the scrapman, the same may well happen again. C6T. As hauled stock anything with ETH could pull them and keep the lights on, but for push pull it would need both ETH and the high level connections (I'm assuming that the 442s had compatibility with the rest of the southern stuff of the time). Unless the 73/9s have kept their high level connections, only a 33/1 can do that, or a 73 on electric. But if you had the juice rail the shoebox would be unnecessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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