Eurostar scrapping class 373s

[Tim H]

Wasn't corrosion a reason for the early withdrawal of so much early-build Mk1 stock in the late 60s and early 70s, much of which was less than 20 years old at the time?

[Fat Controller]

All the more reason for them to subscribe to preserving one.

 

Does the third-rail capability on these units still function? Given they possess overhead as well, we could use them on Thameslink!

 

Chris

The third-rail shoe-gear was removed once CTRL Section 2 was completed, and services switched to St Pancras from Waterloo

[Foulounoux]

Lochnagar wrote -

 

"Havant had chance to read the whole thread but heres my two penneth."

 

That is typical of the people in Havant, they never take up the opportunities offered to them - probably never seen a 373 running through the station though.  

Oi I know I live in the posh part but I'll have you know we take up all opportunities offered us, some have even been known to take up opportunities not offered just that the window was ajar m lid and I was guarding said property for the owner

 

 

Colin

[beejack]

Chris Higgs, on 03 Nov 2016 - 12:04, said:

All the more reason for them to subscribe to preserving one.

 

Does the third-rail capability on these units still function? Given they possess overhead as well, we could use them on Thameslink!

 

Chris

 

I thought one already had been saved after seeing this at the NRM in August 2016

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by beejack

[jamie92208]

 

Chris Higgs, on 03 Nov 2016 - 12:04, said:

All the more reason for them to subscribe to preserving one.

 

Does the third-rail capability on these units still function? Given they possess overhead as well, we could use them on Thameslink!

 

Chris

 

I thought one already had been saved after seeing this at the NRM in August 2016

 

 

 

It has been saved, it's one of the ones from the never used North of London set that ended up being used as a spares donor.

Jamie

[russ p]

Absolutely criminal really that something such as this was never used. When you add the night stock and 92 and 37/6 fleet all this was funded or partially funded by the tax payer at the time

[cornish trains jez]

At least one has been preserved. That's the main thing. There are far too many locos from the last decade or two that are being scrapped rather than refurbished. If we look back, most of the modernisation plan locos from the 60's have lasted well over 35-40 years. EWS is a prime example of a company who was clearly clueless on how to run a good rail freight business efficiently. Importing 100's of unnecessary new locomotives when we already had more powerful and ready to go locos like the 58's and 60's (built 80's and early 90's) which had plenty of years left in them if they had been looked after properly during their EWS years. Thankfully DBS is refurbing some class 60 locos and getting them back in traffic, hopefully all of them!

Also seems a shame to see stored 90's rotting away when again class 66 or 70 diesels are running under the OHLE, what a waste. Class 90's are far more powerful and even the class 92's which, although have had their problems, are being exporterd as surplus to requirements! Even the class 87's could have been used more productively on freight turns rather than being exported. At nearly 5000hp, they are seriously powerful and very capable.

 

I've said my piece now. Rant over and probably a subject for another thread!

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

Edited November 5, 2016 by cornish trains jez

[Ron Ron Ron]

Absolutely criminal really that something such as this was never used. When you add the night stock and 92 and 37/6 fleet all this was funded or partially funded by the tax payer at the time

 

 

Rather it was criminal that they were built in the first place for services that were never really going to happen and were certainly not viable propositions.

 

 

.

[cornish trains jez]

Absolutely criminal really that something such as this was never used. When you add the night stock and 92 and 37/6 fleet all this was funded or partially funded by the tax payer at the time

Was this one never used in service then?

[russ p]

Rather it was criminal that they were built in the first place for services that were never really going to happen and were certainly not viable propositions.

 

 

.

Thats more or less what I meant

[jamie92208]

What happened to the generator cars.  I know that at one time the EM2 society were toying with the idea of coupling one up to their loco so that it could run on the main line.

 

Jamie

[John M Upton]

Still rusting away unused somewhere I believe.  There is the standard article in Rail mag every couple of years saying how someone has a plan for them that usually fizzles away into nothing pretty quickly.

[jjb1970]

Unfortunately the whole Eurostar sleeper and North of London debacle struck me as a text book example of what can happen when political pork barrelling and gesture politics go silly. The whole sorry saga was just about trying to make voters outside the South East feel like they'd get something out of the tunnel and pretty much a political bribe in my opinion. And that is not based on hindsight as it was pretty obvious some of the ideas were hopelessly optimistic at the time.

[Zomboid]

There might have been some genuine merit in the sleeper services, but Eurostar north of London would probably have had a hard time competing with the airlines even in the pre-budget airline environment that they were conceived in.

[royaloak]

Also seems a shame to see stored 90's rotting away when again class 66 or 70 diesels are running under the OHLE, what a waste.

Are the start and finish terminals wired?

If not how do you get the train to where the electric loco can pick it up and then how do you get the train from the end of the overheads to its destination?

 

You would effectively need 3 locos for one train or alternatively use the one diesel for the whole journey!

Such are the joys of electrifying the mainlines but not the terminals/sidings that feed into them.

[Reorte]

Are the start and finish terminals wired?

If not how do you get the train to where the electric loco can pick it up and then how do you get the train from the end of the overheads to its destination?

Buy Class 88s.

 

 

Such are the joys of electrifying the mainlines but not the terminals/sidings that feed into them.

Presumably that would get in the way of the loading arrangements.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Reorte

[Tim H]

Buy Class 88s.

 

 

Presumably that would get in the way of the loading arrangements.

 

They seem to manage on the continent; where the overhead would get in the way (like an intermodal termnal) they electrify the reception roads and use a diesel shunter to move the wagons into the loading/unloading roads.  Where it doesn't (like pallet vans), they just electrify the siding. 

[caradoc]

Coatbridge Freightliner Terminal is electrified, and no diesel shunters are required either.

[jamie92208]

Coatbridge Freightliner Terminal is electrified, and no diesel shunters are required either.

 

So is Willesden IIRC.  They have a couple . of 08's available and the wires terminate at the end of the crane tracks.  there's a similar arrangement  at a small station on the Algarve in Portugal where the aviation fuel for Faro airport comes in electrically hauled every night.  The loco is able to get the container flats far enough into the yard then uncouple and stables for the day.

 

Jamie

[Titan]

Class 90's are far more powerful and even the class 92's which, although have had their problems, are being exporterd as surplus to requirements! Even the class 87's could have been used more productively on freight turns rather than being exported. At nearly 5000hp, they are seriously powerful and very capable.

 

It would seem that you don't understand electrics capabilities all that well. With freight, tractive effort is king, not power. A diesel may be less powerful, but it can get all of its power down on the rail from about ten mphish upwards. With a lightweight electric on only four axles, particularly an older one with tap-changer control, give it full power at anything less than about 50-60mph and even on a dry rail you will get wheelspin. That is why you often find electrics having to double head freightliners that a diesel could shift single handed.

 

The exception to this of course is the 92 - heavy as a diesel and with six axles there is nothing it can't pull. It is essentially two electric locos on one chassis - it's tractive effort has to be electronically limited in order to avoid breaking couplings, and with its high power and almost 90mph top speed is absolutely perfect for lifting either heavy freights or intermodals over Shap etc.

[The Stationmaster]

Rather it was criminal that they were built in the first place for services that were never really going to happen and were certainly not viable propositions.

 

 

.

 

Exactly so - yet again an example of how politics led the railway down a relatively blind alley with the peculiarly political idea of 'involving the rest of Britain in the Channel Tunnel project'.

 

Regional Eurostar was never a truly clever idea and it was dead in the water once cheap airfares became the norm on shorthaul flights although there was a bit of potential there - but not a lot.  Some parts of the sleeper proposals were probably viable especially the German route but the ones beyond London were in reality non-starters because of their very long journey times and the seating section of the Amsterdam route was also knocked into oblivion by cheap air fares.  The fact that they all lasted as long as they did as proposals and spending was entirely down to what the politicians and Merstham St were demanding - once Eurostar was sold the Regional trains were immediately under various microscopes in an effort to find something which actually made commercial sense (instead of political non-sense) while the sleeper services were starting to get similar attention.

Fortunately (unless anything happend later in respect of the Regional sets) the capital costs all remained on Govt books.

Unfortunately the whole Eurostar sleeper and North of London debacle struck me as a text book example of what can happen when political pork barrelling and gesture politics go silly. The whole sorry saga was just about trying to make voters outside the South East feel like they'd get something out of the tunnel and pretty much a political bribe in my opinion. And that is not based on hindsight as it was pretty obvious some of the ideas were hopelessly optimistic at the time.

 

Yes JJB - very much pork barrel politics at its worst.  And it is perhaps an understatement to describe some of the ideas as 'optimistic' as some of them were downright ridiculous and in one or two cases they were actually technically impossible.  One amazing example of the latter was the electrics on the night stock with one of the control units specified and bought on the basis that it would tolerate only a particular number of losses of power supply before it closed itself down and needed an electrician to reset it, the number of shutdowns was actually less than the number of times a Class 92 would be 'gapped' between London and the Channel Tunnel.

[Dava]

The Metro-Camm built sleepers were sold to ViaRail in Canada where they are used on the Ocean service, Montreal-Halifax where they are not loved or considered either roomy enough or reliable in the temperature ranges encountered. Not a happy episode all round.

 

Dava

[DavidB-AU]

They are called the Renaissance cars in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_(railcar)

 

Part of their problem is they are unnecessarily heavy to meet the draconian Channel Tunnel safety requirements.

 

Cheers

David

[Talltim]

 There are far too many locos from the last decade or two that are being scrapped rather than refurbished.

What locos from the last decade or two have been scrapped? None of the 92s have been scrapped, although some are unlikely to run again. The only 66s scrapped have been accident damaged ones. None of the 67 or 68s have been scrapped. Even the 70 that was dropped is still running, although not here.Pushing the two decades a bit, have any of the 60s actually been scrapped?

[HillsideDepot]

What locos from the last decade or two have been scrapped? None of the 92s have been scrapped, although some are unlikely to run again. The only 66s scrapped have been accident damaged ones. None of the 67 or 68s have been scrapped. Even the 70 that was dropped is still running, although not here.Pushing the two decades a bit, have any of the 60s actually been scrapped?

And to turn the debate around, why are we still running old locos? We often say that we want investment in the railways, and if we'd had the levels of investment we'd have liked the class 37 refurbishment programme of the 1980s would have been class 38 new builds. If things had gone to plan, as BR saw it, we'd have had fleets of APTs and not class 47s hanging on for decades working class 1 trains, and the Sprinter revolution would have happened sooner and on a wider scale basis than it did, just to pick on a few examples. Then again, if certain politicians had had their way, we could have ended up with a very, very much reduced network.

 

We are where we are, and that includes the businesses who see trains as a means to an end (and that 'end', in the commercial world, isn't even transporting people or things) and those of us who derive pleasure out of observing how they do (did - for the historically minded among us) that.