Minority Report: The Wish-List Poll & the Pre-Grouper

[J C Fenton]

Well, I have now wish-listed, which means I have verbed (twice!)

 

I have voted for GW prototypes that favour both the pre-Grouping era and the Thirties, as I have an interest in both.

 

For others, I have tended to focus on pre-WW1 prototypes from the Pre-Grouping companies for which I have a genuine intention of building up stock: LSWR, SE&CR, LB&SCR, GER, MR and one or two others.

 

I hope my catholic tastes do not cause my entries to be disqualified.  They are all things I'd buy!

 

I was pleased to see the E4 (GE T26) on the menu - I hope you voted for that!!!! 

[Penlan]

I seem to recall a few years ago, there was a review of RMwebbers interest,

Pre-Group came out at around 3% of the total people registered on RMweb.

 

Then you take into account the strong camps for individual railway companies - LNWR, LSWR, GWR, Camb. Rlys, etc., etc.,

I think we will lucky to get anything.

 

Agreed the LNWR Coal Tank is great news, but..... 

[Andy Hayter]

Agreed the LNWR Coal Tank is great news, but.....

 

....... it will be just another orphan - that is a pre-grouping model with no close relatives to run with it.

 

At least it can join the others in the orphanage.

 

C Class - until the birdcage coaches arrive - but ideally we should have pre-1914 wagons and a brake van, not even available in kit form today.

LYR 2-4-2T

GCR Pom Pom

GCR 2-8-0

LBSCR E4 - at least the terriers have a brake van

MR 4F - I was lucky / foresighted enough to get the Slaters wagons and brake van. Today even ebay offerings are thin on the ground.

MR compound - again Slaters to the rescue but getting increasingly hard to find.

[Nick Holliday]

....... it will be just another orphan - that is a pre-grouping model with no close relatives to run with it.At least it can join the others in the orphanage.C Class - until the birdcage coaches arrive - but ideally we should have pre-1914 wagons and a brake van, not even available in kit form today.LYR 2-4-2TGCR Pom PomGCR 2-8-0LBSCR E4 - at least the terriers have a brake vanMR 4F - I was lucky / foresighted enough to get the Slaters wagons and brake van. Today even ebay offerings are thin on the ground.MR compound - again Slaters to the rescue but getting increasingly hard to find.

Not quite sure about these comments. If we are talking RTR then the Slaters references are a red herring. If we are talking kits then many of these locos can be matched with currently available kits, although early SECR goods stock is thin on the ground, but exLCDR kits from Roxey can be used. The Hornby LBSC guards van is a very late design, so only appropriate for an umber Terrier, and the E4 is a mixed traffic loco too. As for Midland coaches, the Ratio range is still alive and well, with others from Wizard and Branchlines to add to the mix

[Andy Hayter]

You are right Nick, I am guilty of mixing the message.

 

The orphan comment referred to rtr offerings.

 

I then thought to add some of the problems of even matching kits due to their production having disappeared, and in the process of course left out some important current players who can supply matching kits.

[PaulRhB]

Bachmann do a MR brake now.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jusr the one? If so, then that really underlines how the RTR manufacturers don't get behind the idea of a reasonably comprehensive range of pre-group models.

 

Of couse, given the preoccupation with locomotives shown my buyers, it isn't rsally surprising.

[Mad Carew Too]

Well, I have done my bit by voting in the poll.  Apart from a lingering desire to do some UK pre-Grouping modelling, any smaller profile Victorian loco designs are good for me as a basis for regauging to 5'6"!

 

I voted with both ideas in mind. 

 

To my mind, more could be done to produce after-market products to back-date RTR.  Without this happening and the resultant conversions being aired in the press etc, I think it would be a struggle to demonstrate significant growing interest in PG.

[Edwardian]

Double-take of the day:

I misread that as "lingerie desire".

 

Also, disappointment of the day.

 

Clearly, you've reached that difficult age!

[Edwardian]

This is by way of an experiment, a trial, if you like, and is not intended to be a comprehensive or substitute poll. 

 

So, let us say there was a manufacturer actually interested in producing primarily for earlier periods.  If you can willingly suspend disbelief just enough to accept that improbable premise, what would you wish for?

 

What if you were give an reasonable choice of prototypes for each of a number of pre-Grouping companies.  Let us sat that we focus on late 1890s to WW1, because the further back we go the less coverage there is.

 

Starting with locomotives, what if our Mythical Manufacturer said you could choose 1 express passenger locomotive, 1 passenger or mixed traffic locomotive for secondary services, 1 passenger tank, 1 six-coupled goods, 1 six-coupled tank/shunter/pilot.  What if you were then told you had a choice of only 3 being made?

 

Let us start with a list.  The list can be added to and debated.  If it were to be a real Wish-list, the descriptions would need to be fuller, but it isn't, so I restrict myself to a brief description of the class/variant.

 

I will start with that popular-but-divisive line, the Great Western.  Needless to say, there are more classes that could be candidates, and there are many different detail differences in the classes selected, so the idea is to identify the major variants/rebuilds only:

 

Queen Class 2-2-2 in c.1899-1900 rebuilt condition - cab, dome on 2nd ring, tender coal rails

 

Queen Class 2-2-2 with belpaire firebox, domeless parallel boiler and central brass safety bonnet, from c.1903

 

157/Cobham Class 2-2-2 in rebuilt condition - cab, dome on 2nd ring

 

157/Cobham Class 2-2-2 with belpaire firebox, domeless parallel boiler and central brass safety bonnet

 

3001 Class  2-2-2 built 1891-2 - looks like a 2-2-2 version of the famous 4-2-2 Dean Single, to which most were converted

 

Dean Single 4-2-2, 1894 - as built condition 

 

Dean Single 4-2-2 rebuilt with belpaire firebox, from 1910

 

Armstrong Class 4-4-0 of 1894.  This was a class of just 4 and one was given a belpaire boiler in 1901 and rebuilds startred in 1905, so they did not last long in their original condition.  They are in looks essentially a 4-4-0 version of the Dean Single and more than one commentator has singled them out as exceptionally handsome.  

 

Duke Class 4-4-0 of 1895-7, - as built

 

Duke Class 4-4-0 - with belpaire box and B4 boiler as was the standard replacement boiler for the class by 1904.  Top feed to some 1913.

 

Badminton Class 4-4-0 of 1897-9, as built. This is the first class to be built with belpaire boxes and, as a consequence, to my mind wear them better than many Dean passenger classes to which they were subsequently fitted.

 

Earl Cawdor in various and rapidly changing guises - do we want to go there?!?

 

Bulldog Class 4-4-0, of 1899-1910.   A large class built over a long period. We have 3 major frame variants to consider: Curved, Straight (from 1900), and Deep Straight ("Bird" series of 1909-10). As built I believe the curved framed and the first 40 of the straight frames came out with belpaires and parallel boilers.  From 3381 (1903) onward, they were built with short-coned boilers.  From 1906, with long-coned boilers.  The short-cone boilers were all replaced by 1913.  Take your pick?!?

 

Atbara Class 4-4-0, with parallel or cone boiler

 

Flower Class 4-4-0, 1908,

 

3232 Class 2-4-0 of 1892-93, one of the larger wheeled 2-4-0 classes (6' 8 1/2" drivers), a very handsome inside frame design - as built (dome on front ring) or re-boilered (dome on second ring)

 

3232 Class 2-4-0, belpaire firebox

 

River Class, 2-4-0 of 1895-7, a small but very elegant named class with pierced outside frames and 6' 8" coupled wheels - as built (dome on front ring) or re-boilered (dome on second ring)

 

Barnum Class, 2-4-0 of 1889, a relatively long-lived class with examples surviving in Wales in the Grouping years. Pierced outside frames and 6' 2" coupled wheels - as built (dome on front ring) or re-boilered (dome on second ring)

 

Barnum Class, 2-4-0 with belpaire firbox domeless BRO boiler or B4 boiler with dome

 

Stella Class 2-4-0 of 1884, very much the baby, with 5' 2" coupled wheels.  Outside frame -  Roundtop firebox, dome on front ring or S4 with dome on second ring

 

Stella Class 2-4-0, with belpaire box and dome on second ring (from 1903)

 

Standard Goods (Armstrong Goods)  0-6-0 - outside frame - S4 boiler and round-top firebox

 

Standard Goods (Armstrong Goods)  0-6-0 - belpaire, dome on front ring 

 

Standard Goods (Armstrong Goods)  0-6-0 - belpaire, dome on second ring

 

Dean Goods 0-6-0 - Roundtop firebox. Domeless (first 20 as built)

 

Dean Goods 0-6-0 - Roundtop firebox. Dome on front ring

 

Dean Goods 0-6-0 - Roundtop firebox. Dome on second ring

 

Dean Goods 0-6-0 - Belpaire, selected rebuilds from 1901, top-feeds to some 1913

 

1076/Buffalo 0-6-0 Saddle Tank outside frame, 4' 7 1/2" drivers - various boiler/boiler fittings variants

 

1076/Buffalo 0-6-0 Pannier Tank outside frame  - rebuildings from 1911.  A long-lived class, with, e.g. in the Newton Abbott Division until at least 1934.

 

1854/1701 0-6-0 Saddle Tank inside frame, 4' 7 1/2" drivers

 

633 Class 0-6-0 side tank

 

850 Class  0-6-0 Saddle Tank inside frame, the gorgeous little Wolverhampton class

 

517 Class 0-4-2 - Another pretty little Wolverhampton class and a firm favourite of mine.  Many variants (!) and already rebuilt  from their original 1860s form by the time we look at them in this survey.  Original short-frame saddle tanks, but rebuilt in 1880s with side tanks and lengthened frames - examples in Russell: 539 with Roundtop firebox and R4 boiler, in 1910, and 555 in 1902 condition with Roundtop firebox and R2/3 boiler and extended smokebox (with wing plates!).  Class featured both flat top bunkers with coal rails and bunkers with raised backs.

 

Small Metro 2-4-0T - a typical Small Metro for the period might be Roundtop firebox, S4 boiler and dome on the second ring with half-cab. 

 

Aberdare/2600 Class - parallel boiler

 

Aberdare/2600 Class - cone boiler

 

Birdcage/3600 Class 2-4-2Ts of 1900-1902, in many ways a more typical passenger tank than choosing to back-date a Prairie - as built

 

100 and 98, the first 4-6-0s?

 

The De Glehns?

 

The Atlantics?

 

Saint/2900 Class 4-6-0

 

County Tank 4-4-2T of 1905

 

3100/5100 Class Large Prairie, 2-6-2T

 

Great Bear?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[BG John]

Late 1890s to WW1! Only if they have the potential to backdate

Standard Goods with an S2 boiler

1076 Saddle tank

 

I'll buy them with someone who just wants the chassis, so I can have the body, as they both need to be P4, and the 1076 needs to be turned into a broad gauge convertible!

[Northroader]

Echoing bg john, to me an available chassis would an excellent start. I'm working in O, and always thought the old LIMA 4F 0-6-0 job had great potential, the only putting off feature being lack of see through wheels. The superstructure was cheaply made and could be hacked about or thrown away. Presumably if you're a manufacturer, making cheap items doesn't give you the same margins as dear ones?

[BG John]

I'm actually moving away from a desire for RTR stuff. My 1905 EM GWR layout is probably the end of that combination, and for the future I'm aiming towards the mid to late 1880s, where I can have broad and narrow gauge in one layout. As this will be P4, I'll normally need to build chassis rather than modify RTR ones. If some suitable RTR comes along, I'll use it, which is why I've just bought an Oxford Adams Radial, as the LSWR will have running powers to add a bit of variety. But I don't think there's any point in hoping for anything else suitable to be produced.

 

Apart from my planned O gauge K&ESR layout, nothing 20th century I model will be taken very seriously, and any RTR I buy will be battered old wrecks that I can knock into something presentable. I would be tempted by a low price RTR O gauge K&ESR Hawthorn Leslie 2-4-0T, but I doubt if anyone will produce them, as only two were built.

 

I probably ought to give up following all the topics on new RTR, but they tend to get quite entertaining!

[Edwardian]

You see I think that attempting to build consensus for a particular model is one thing.  A manufacturer imposing a specific model is another. People who preferred Class A might buy Class B.  People who wanted Variant 1, might still buy Variant 2; albeit they may do so in order to convert the model. 

 

The existence of the model means many buyers will shift position to some extent in order to accommodate it.  If the Egg/Chicken theory holds good, we've also just kicked the Chicken and the resultant eggs will build appeal. It is important not to over-state the effect of simply producing models.  Even if a limited run can be made viable, there is no guarantee that the minimum quantity would sell out.

 

So, let us suppose that Mythical Manufacturer acts in at least one respect like a Real Manufacturer; he makes the choice for you:

 

Dean Single 4-2-2, 1894 - as built condition

 

Dean Single 4-2-2 rebuilt with belpaire firebox, from 1910

 

Duke Class 4-4-0 of 1895-7, - as built

 

Duke Class 4-4-0 - with belpaire box and B4 boiler

 

Bulldog Class 4-4-0, of 1899-1910:

 

• Curved, parallel boiler

 

• Straight, long cone boiler 

 

• Bird, long cone boiler

 

 

3232 Class 2-4-0 of 1892-93 - as re-boilered (dome on second ring)

 

3232 Class 2-4-0, belpaire firebox

 

River Class, 2-4-0 of 1895-7, as re-boilered (dome on second ring)

 

Barnum Class, 2-4-0 - as re-boilered (dome on second ring)

 

Barnum Class, 2-4-0 - with belpaire firebox, B4 boiler with dome

 

Stella Class 2-4-0 of 1884, Roundtop firebox, S4 with dome on second ring

 

Stella Class 2-4-0, with belpaire box and dome on second ring (from 1903)

 

Standard Goods (Armstrong Goods)  0-6-0 - outside frame - S4 boiler and round-top firebox

 

Standard Goods (Armstrong Goods)  0-6-0 - belpaire, dome on second ring

 

Dean Goods 0-6-0 - Roundtop firebox. Dome on second ring

 

Dean Goods 0-6-0 - Belpaire,

 

1076/Buffalo 0-6-0 Saddle Tank outside frame, 4' 7 1/2" drivers - various boiler/boiler fittings variants

 

1076/Buffalo 0-6-0 Pannier Tank outside frame  - rebuildings from 1911.  A long-lived class, with, e.g. in the Newton Abbott Division until at least 1934.

 

850 Class  0-6-0 Saddle Tank inside frame, the gorgeous little Wolverhampton class

 

517 Class 0-4-2:

 

- One round-top firebox with straight-back bunker variant

 

- One round-top firebox with low bunker and coal rails variant

 

Small Metro 2-4-0T - Roundtop firebox, S4 boiler and dome on the second ring with half-cab.

 

Aberdare/2600 Class - parallel boiler

 

Aberdare/2600 Class - cone boiler

 

Birdcage/3600 Class 2-4-2T - as built 

 

Saint/2900 Class 4-6-0

 

County Tank 4-4-2T

 

How many of each might he sell?

[wagonman]

As I have kits for at least five of those locos mouldering away in my "if I retire before i die" pile, I'll pray no one does introduce RtR models...

 

[JCL]

This has been an interesting read. I didn't vote this year, only because there wasn't anything I was really interested in.

 

I suppose for myself, joining the GNR Soc was a mistake as it has meant that my desire to model what I know (BR blue) has turned into a rather more involved, and deeper desire to model a Lincolnshire branch line of the late Victorian, early Edwardian era.

 

I realise it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but since changing focus, I've learnt a 3D modelling software package and put together a GNR 0-4-4 tank (G1) and a couple of Singles which Chris P Bacon is currently trying to make sense of. The design of the G1 on its own took about a year of research and development and many revisions even before it was printed the first time, and I put it up on Shapeways with a tiny margin that will just about cover the cost of printing prototypes. It would be nice if complete chassis were available, but I've a feeling that it's going to be another skill I'm going to have to get around to. Oh, that and lining...

 

Again, this worked for me, but maybe wouldn't for the majority of people.

[Edwardian]

I'm confused.

 

Are you suggesting that a (fictional) manufacturer produces all of those, or are you trying to gauge which one would be the best/safest bet?

 

Simply if they were produced, might anyone buy them?

 

With RTR, Manufacturers necessarily choose what we buy, so trying to build consensus for particular models pre-release, given the number of potential prototypes, rebuilds, liveries and variations in the pre-Grouping years is rather hopeless.

[BG John]

Ah.

 

Well, Tri-ang thought so: "Lord of the Isles", anyone?

Also, their rather strange interpretation of GWR 101, and the 2721.

I've already got enough of those!

 

- Lord of the Isles may one day become a broad gauge 2-2-2

- Three 101 bodies for conversion to O-16.5

- Three 2721 bodies (one with chassis) for:

-- Quick conversion to EM by shoving the wheels out

-- Conversion to 1814 class as first fitted with panniers in 1904, on new EM chassis

-- Conversion to broad gauge saddle tank, on new P4 chassis

[Edwardian]

The short answer is that all of those would sell, but not in very high numbers.

 

 

 

Agree.

 

 

If you take something like the 517 class, they are a modeller's dream, as there are so many variations. That makes them a manufacturer's nightmare. Do they go for the more frequent variants? Do they go for the one with the most potential for conversion? I remember Iain Rice's series of articles using the Mallard kit as a starting point. Varying degrees of new parts were required, according to which engine at which time... So, if one was produced, it would need to be something which could be easily converted, to maximise sales.

 

 

 

Indeed. I have at least one of the articles, from back in the distant past when Mr Rice rambled around Cornwall, before he became lost in East Anglia. 

 

 

Here's a thought, though. The Midland standardised on wheelbase and driving wheel size (with a small number of exceptions) for its 0-6-0s. There are RTR models of 3Fs and 4Fs, and various patterns of tender. A new body, and there you have a 2F. A new body with outside frames, and outside cranks on the axles, and you can have a 1F. How many modeller's have done this, or is everyone waiting for it to be mass produced?

 

Good point.  People have not done so to a noticeable extent.  No-one has stepped forward to make resin or 3D print alternative bodies for these MR types.

 

But.  You produce a RTR Johnson 0-6-0 or 4-4-0 in Midland livery, or MGNJ in Golden Gorse and its sheer gorgeousness would sell it.  Perhaps not in vast numbers, but in reasonable numbers at least.

[Edwardian]

My point was more that this could be done using, maybe, the footplate and some of the existing cab/smokebox, with some brass, styrene or ABS tube, and styrene sheet or thin metal, certainly for a 2F or indeed an earlier 3F. Doesn't have to be 3D or resin.

The key issue is that the working part, the chassis, is already done, and this is often the biggest worry for many who want to have a o at building their own.

It would depend to some extent on the version of engine, but I suspect that there would be enough interest to support some limited editions in these paint schemes, so that should hel increase demand for production in LMS and BR liveries, as appropriate.

And don't forget the SDJR!

 

I agree.  That is the approach I would like to take.  Currently, however, the Midland is a company for which I have few photographs and no drawings. 

 

My response was aimed at the issue of the mythical RTR version; evident lack of numbers of homemade conversions or aftermarket bodies for the Bachmann models may suggest a lack of interest in the period.  On the other-hand, it may just reflect the relative difficulty involved in departing from the late condition RTR subjects.  The elegant Johnson designs and the opulent liveries they wore are probably good examples of models that would sell in a certain quantity RTR.  

 

Yes, one in S&DJ blue would sell.

 

Locos like these, pre-Group versions of Hornby and Kernow's ex-LSWR models, and Bachmann's forthcoming Brighton Atlantic, are easily within the manufacturers' power to produce, and would sell in reasonable numbers, I am sure. 

 

You cannot judge the potential  number of RTR purchasers by the number of bashers and bodgers of RTR equipment.  

[Edwardian]

True, but adaptation will be required at some point: with so many variations, manufacturers won't be able to cover them all.

 

True.  But this would be in the context of overall better support for earlier periods.  Knowing me, I'd buy 2 of everything - to run both the version manufactured and a conversion!

[John_Miles]

Ah.

 

Well, Tri-ang thought so: "Lord of the Isles", anyone?

Also, their rather strange interpretation of GWR 101, and the 2721.

 

The short answer is that all of those would sell, but not in very high numbers.

 

If you take something like the 517 class, they are a modeller's dream, as there are so many variations. That makes them a manufacturer's nightmare. Do they go for the more frequent variants? Do they go for the one with the most potential for conversion? I remember Iain Rice's series of articles using the Mallard kit as a starting point. Varying degrees of new parts were required, according to which engine at which time... So, if one was produced, it would need to be something which could be easily converted, to maximise sales.

 

Here's a thought, though. The Midland standardised on wheelbase and driving wheel size (with a small number of exceptions) for its 0-6-0s. There are RTR models of 3Fs and 4Fs, and various patterns of tender. A new body, and there you have a 2F. A new body with outside frames, and outside cranks on the axles, and you can have a 1F. How many modeller's have done this, or is everyone waiting for it to be mass produ

Not necessarily that easy. Fitting a small Victorian loco onto a chassis designed for a 3F or 4F (the 3F as produced dates from 1916) would probably mean that a new motor and gearbox would be required and then you have those dreadfully sloppy coupling rods and tolerances. Given that building a chassis is fairly easy (either scratchbuilt or from kit), then why struggle with trying to make a RTR chassis fit? Just for the record. I have built 2Fs, 3Fs, 4Fs, 1F 0-6-0T, 1F 0-6-0 and various versions of the Jinty.

[ChrisN]

Thoughts, probably confused to answer the comments since the 'new poll list'.

Some RTR modellers do not have the time, or the inclination to scratchbuild, or even make kits, and some may not have the skill.  To some anything before WW2 is a foreign land.  However, if an attractive model came along, they along with the collectors would buy it.

 

Having come from 009 I have always known I would have to build locos, but in 009 there are N gauge chassis to put them on.  I am still quite nervous of producing my first loco chassis so any RTR chassis to put things on would be a boon but the comment about small Victorian locos is also valid.

 

I would vote for in the above list, the 517, a round topped Dean goods, 1076 saddle tank, a 3232 of 1892 or a Stella of 1884, and a Dean single 0f 1894.

 

I also think that with a 4-4-0, and 2-4-0 passenger engines, an Aston Goods 0-6-0 and a Seaham 2-4-0 tank and a few coaches you could cover the Cambrian.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Edwardian

 

The Dean 2021/2181 0-6-0PT seems to be missing from the lists. Or am I just not seeing it?

 

Brian

[BG John]

Hello Edwardian

 

The Dean 2021/2181 0-6-0PT seems to be missing from the lists. Or am I just not seeing it?

 

Brian

For pre-grouping, saddle tanks are mostly needed. Panniers started to be fitted in the early 1900s, but many saddle tanks didn't get them until well after grouping.