nor here

[iak]

This thread is getting very horny gents...

Fascinating to see a beastie like this appear from a melange of sources B)

[Guest stuartp]

Hope that helps your deliberations.

 

Certainly does Dave, thank you very much. That's exactly what I was thinking of for the BT. I see the difference in the door widths now as well - the wider frame either side of the window is quite noticeable. I think I might have to deal with that . Unfortunately my prototype pics are less than clear and there's no way I would have picked up that subtlety by eye. Lovely build there.

[davefrk]

Hi Stuart, don't worry, we've all done things like that.... I bet the air was blue though.

I do think you would be happier if you stripped and redid the job, others may not notice but you always will.....

 

Regards

Dave Franks

www.lanarkshiremodels.com

[pete_mcfarlane]

I'm glad it's not just me who does a good paint job followed by an awful mess with the varnish......

 

They do look good despite the varnish problems.

[31A]

Oh dear, how very tiresome for you Stuart, after all this time and effort, too!

 

Good luck with the salvage operation....

[Jamie]

Can't believe I've been messing about with these b_____y things for 6 months now !

But it's only 2 months per coach really

They look superb... but I don't envy you the glazing, no sir!

[Guest stuartp]

But it's only 2 months per coach really

They look superb... but I don't envy you the glazing, no sir!

 

 

Well yes, when you look at it that way , apart from a bit of tail traffic that's another service ticked off ! Ta !

 

Thanks for the comments gents. They don't look too bad after the second coat of Klear, not great but not intolerable. I will cycle them through the painting programme at some point in the future but they'll be a long way down the list.

 

I've started glazing them using Airfix and Dapol glazing chopped up, and discovered that the later glazing is a very tight fit (and of course, I don't have 3 coaches' worth of the older stuff !) Nothing that a couple of passes with a file around the window won't cure but another chore. They'll be done by the weekend though I hope !

[jwealleans]

That's very encouraging, Stuart - I have one of those for the Thurston fish train which I haven't put together yet. It looks very nice. Spurred by your post I had a quick flick around and there is a picture in 'The LMS Coach' although it's in full lined LMS livery. There was apparently another diagram, 1887 which, superficially at least, looks quite similar.

[31A]

Surprised there was anything left after you put a plastic body into brake fluid , Stuart - or am I missing something here?

[Oldddudders]

Surprised there was anything left after you put a plastic body into brake fluid , Stuart - or am I missing something here?

No, it's a traditional route to starting with a fresh bodyshell. "Most" high-impact plastics do not react with the fluid and in the days before the trade offered us a bespoke substance, it was the only game in town.

[Guest stuartp]

Yes, I've never had any problems with it. It works better on enamels and you need the cheap DOT 3 or 4 version, the posh silicone stuff doesn't work. It's very much the last resort though, it's foul stuff to use. Another option for acrylics is Windolene (ammonia) or oven cleaner.

 

Thanks Jonathan, that's one book I don't have. I'm holding out for a second hand copy of Volume 1 ! Fortunately the meat van versions are amply illustrated in An Illustrated History of LMS Wagons and David Larkin's Pre-Nationalisation Freight Wagons on British Railways.

[31A]

Sorry guys, my mistake - must have been thinking of something else!

 

Better luck next time with the painting, Stuart!

[Barry Rhys]

Hi Stuart, good to see you putting a pregrouping coach in a Nationalisation-era setting. Apologies for the length of the following, before I start.

 

I hope the following information is useful to you, and comes in good time before you force unnecessary hardships upon yourself! Basically, it's about a major error in the Ian Smith drawing that should make your conversion a lot easier!

 

Over the last year or so, I've done quite a lot of checking of available information about the Caley Grampians from various sources (I'll mention them in a minute), and came up with some quite surprising results - surprising to me, that is - not because it was new research or anything, but because I'd never read it in any of the well-known published sources.

 

In particular the fact that, of the 77 Grampian 12-whl Corridor coaches to 7 different Diagrams (1 X Composite, 3 X Brake Composites, 1 X Full 3rd, and 2 X Brake 3rds), only 15 of the coaches had the supposedly iconic 'cove roof' flattened end profile - and none of the 2 coach types shown in David Jenkinson's Historic Carriage Drawings: Volume 2 LMS. In fact, the cove-roof profile end views drawn by Ian R Smith are hybrid views comprising bits of each of the 2 possible types, and correct for neither.

 

For anybody reading who doesn't have this extremely useful book (and I'm not being sarcastic here; I think if it wasn't for this book, and its well presented mix of pregrouping and postgrouping LMS coach drawings from all 3 LMS Eras, I would never have the interest I do in coaches) to compare my comments with, I should give a little background. In the book there are 2 drawings of Grampian coaches, namely a 7-compartment Brake 3rd and a 4x1st/3x3rd-compartment Composite, with side and end views (Stuart's pic above shows one of these side views), plus a bit of text and a lovely clear photo of each in BR days. At the end of the extended photo caption is the cause of many an hour spent searching for photos of Grampians, a single short statement: "Although notionally built to the limit of the structure gauge, these carriages actually displayed a slightly flattened roof centre compared with the full elliptical profile of the carriages on the next two pages (My note: later Caley 8-whl corridor and non-corridor designs), which difference can just be appreciated in these views."

 

So I stared at these photos, tried squinting sideways-on, turned the book around at varying degrees of rotation, but... I was buggered if I could appreciate this difference. Hence my search for further photos to convince myself that my vision was obviously at fault or I was just having a bad night - Caledonian Cavalcade, Caledonian in LMS Days, 40 Years of Caledonian Locomotives, LMS Album No.2 (photos of LMS Constituent locos), anything that might have a picture of a Caley Grampian coach in it! Nearly all have typical shots of locos with trains, but critically a lot were of Caley expresses, and quite a few had 12-whl Grampians in them - especially, several had the 7-compt Brake 3rd as a leading coach (the Caley nearly always put a Brake end at the front of a train). But in all of them I seemed to be seeing only elliptical-ish shaped rooves, not just as a subjective judgement, but also in comparison to other adjacent coaches that I knew did have elliptical rooves - eg. postgrouping shots showing a Grampian alongside LMS standard stock. I felt a bit like the little urchin in the story "The King With No Clothes", where everybody knowledgeable fawns and says "Look at the lovely elegant cove-roof profile clothes on those luxurious Grampians, only a genuine coach-lover could appreciate them", and I stare at his nakedness and shout "But he's not wearing any clothes!!"

 

Well, to miss out all the boring stuff and tell you the ending, I finally worked out the details after joining the Caledonian Railway Association, and combining details from various archive reprints of Carriage Diagrams and building/order information.

 

Basically, the coaches that got all the publicity at the time of instatement of the Caledonian Railway "Grampian Corridor Dining Car Express" in 1905 between Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen were built to 4 Diagrams - Composite, Brake 3rd and Brake Composite (but neither of the types shown in the Ian Smith drawings), and Full 3rd. These are the 4 made as kits by Caley Coaches, on whose website you can see the basic side views. These first batches of coaches, comprising only 2 CKs, 2 BCKs, 3 TKs and 8 BTKs - ie. the aforementioned 15 coaches, were all built in 1904/05 with a new cove-roof style and corresponding end profile - however the end view by Ian Smith has totally incorrect panelling style for these cove-roof coaches. For anybody (Stuart?) who fancies converting the Triang/Hornby Composite - which does have the correct compartment configuration for these coaches - into one of the 2 1904/05-built cove-roof Composites, you can find accurate drawings of the end views in another invaluable David Jenkinson book 'British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century: Vol 1 The End of an Era 1901-22' (p.183, to save you searching!).

 

Then, between 1906 and 1909, the vast majority of the 12-whl Grampian corridors were built, all having a new (semi-)elliptical roof style. To the previously mentioned Diagrams, but with the new style roof, a further 8CKs, 9 BCKs, 13 TKs and 6 BTKs were built. However in addition, 2 new Brake Composite designs - yes, you guessed, one of them the Ian Smith/Triang Hornby type - and a new 7-compt Brake 3rd, as drawn by Ian Smith, were introduced, all having the elliptical roof style. So 8 of the Triang-style Brake Compo were built, 3 of which lasted all the way through to 1955 - in fact the one shown in the Historic Carriage Drawings photo No.SC7390 was the very last of all the Grampians to be withdrawn, in December 1955.

 

The good news for those wanting a correct end view with correct elliptical roof profile and correct panelling, is that the Ian Smith end view basically shows the correct panelling layout for the elliptical roof. To get the correct elliptical profile, have a look 4 pages further on, p.127, where you will find a Caley 50' Full Brake. Although this is the later matchboard-style end, the elliptical roof profile is exactly the same as that of the Grampian BCK (12'3" high - Note this is not the same as the 57' Corridor Composite end profile further down p.127, which is even higher and hence of a different elliptical profile!). So all that is required is to transpose the 50' Full Brake roof profile onto the Grampian end, then extend the Grampian end panelling upwards to meet the new roof line. I did this literally by photocopying the drawings and literally 'cutting-and-shutting' the photocopies, drawing the new lines and photocopying the result! Probably unnecessary, but it did allow me to see that everything looked right.

 

If you want to see what the end should look like, there is an excellent photo in 'British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century' on p.100 of a 50' 8-whl 3rd Class Corridor Saloon - this was built at the same time as the later Grampians, and has the identical end - panelling style, roof profile, height, everything, and shows a really good view of the end into the bargain!

 

Sorry to all for the length of this diatribe - you'll no doubt be pleased that I've got to go home now (trouble from SWMBO). Maybe you can do something with this info Stuart.

 

Neil

[BernardTPM]

To get the correct elliptical profile, have a look 4 pages further on, p.127, where you will find a Caley 50' Full Brake. Although this is the later matchboard-style end, the elliptical roof profile is exactly the same as that of the Grampian BCK (12'3" high - Note this is not the same as the 57' Corridor Composite end profile further down p.127, which is even higher and hence of a different elliptical profile!).

Ironic that the real 123 ran with the 57' stock (If they'd tooled it in the late '70s instead of the early '60s the coaches could have gone on the then new 57' 'generic' chassis). Interesting info., non-the-less. And good for use of the old mouldings!

[Guest stuartp]

Wow ! Took me a while to take that all in and digest it ! Thanks very much indeed Neil for taking the trouble to put all this down in writing, not just for my benefit but for anyone else reading this.

 

I was aware of the two different BCKs (and relieved that the Tri-ang one matched the prototype pic !) but I freely admit that I fell straight into the 'all Grampians have depressed rooves' trap, and also to feeling slightly puzzled that although I could see the difference in a couple of photos, in others I couldn't. I put this down to two things - my longstanding blindspot when it comes to subtleties in the exact shape of carriage rooves generally, and the fact that, well, David Jenkinson and Ian Smith said so so it must be right ! I should know better, I'm currently picking my way through Caledonian Railway Liveries where Jim McIntosh meticulously picks apart 150 years of received wisdom on exactly what colour Caley Blue was !

 

Thank you so much for sharing your research and confirming that it's not just my duff perception. I didn't quite get as far as marking out the ends last night (based on the Ian Smith drawing) so this has come just in the nick of time !

 

there is an excellent photo in 'British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century'

 

(Trots off to local library - they've got a copy of that...)

[Redkiterail]

Barry Rhys:

I am right in saying the triang bck is correct but the other two coaches are not and that all three have incorrect ends, chassis and bogies

[Barry Rhys]

Ironic that the real 123 ran with the 57' stock (If they'd tooled it in the late '70s instead of the early '60s the coaches could have gone on the then new 57' 'generic' chassis).

That's an interesting thought, although to be honest I think that, if Triang hadn't released the 2 Caley coaches at that time on the back of the nostalgia created by the two then newly restored 57' Caledonian coaches tootling around Scotland (and England too?) behind the gleaming blue Caley Single 123, we would still now be waiting for a first Caley coach of any type. I have a feeling that when 123 was finally run into the ground and pensioned off to retirement in the Glasgow Transport Museum, the 2 coaches were pretty much forgotten about, and we're very lucky that somebody saved them (now in the tender care of the SRPS at Bo'ness) at a time when preserved coaches were not really the 'in' thing.

 

Purely from a selfish viewpoint, I'm happy too that Triang chose to model 2 authentic coach bodies at their nearly correct lengths to fit the Mk 1 chassis (ie. 65' Grampians with their fully-panelled body style), instead of the alternative of "correctly" representing the semi-panelled/semi-flush bodywork style of the 2 restored coaches but stretched from 57' to the Mk 1 chassis length. If Triang had taken the latter option, adding compartments, stretching window lengths etc to reach the full 10-inch chassis length, it would be impossible to use them as a basis for anything realistic now, and Stuart's would probably still be in the loft (mine too, but we don't have a loft). And even if Hornby had made more accurate models of the 2 restored coaches on their 70's 57' chassis, the late-Caledonian bodywork style could only be used for a few other similar variants, whereas at least the fully panelled style is more widely applicable.

 

 

 

I was aware of the two different BCKs (and relieved that the Tri-ang one matched the prototype pic !) but I freely admit that I fell straight into the 'all Grampians have depressed rooves' trap, and also to feeling slightly puzzled that although I could see the difference in a couple of photos, in others I couldn't. I put this down to two things - my longstanding blindspot when it comes to subtleties in the exact shape of carriage rooves generally, and the fact that, well, David Jenkinson and Ian Smith said so so it must be right!

 

 

Yes, that was exactly my feeling too. When so much of the information that I have devoured down the years has come from the likes of David Jenkinson and other superheros, it is difficult to imagine that you may know something better. And yet, I suspect that if DJ and Ian Smith were still around today, they would be very encouraging of somebody questioning what they had written through a little research. Especially, for anybody nowadays who criticises somebody's reputation based on inaccuracies found in drawings such as these, it needs to be remembered just how much of the vast quantity of today's published material, on which such judgements are based, has only been unearthed in the last 20 or 30 years. So much archived material now used to produce the authoritative, hefty and gorgeous-smelling works-of-art now published by the likes of Wild Swan had never been discovered when Ian Smith was drawing prototypes that he was seeing shortly before their final demise, never to be seen again. I came across this comment in a recent thread on RMweb:

 

"From first hand experience, the only accurate way of obtaining detailed drawings is to climb all over an existing prototype with tape measure and camera. Obviously this is not always possible, so careful transposing from pictures is usually ok.

 

Never trust anybody elses information."

 

(Only fair for me to say this comes from a thread here regarding the accuracy of purchasable drawings - please check it out to understand the proper context)

 

Quote: "Obviously (climbing all over an existing prototype with tape measure and camera) is not always possible". I would like to ask, is it ever possible? And, to a person who has "first hand experience of measuring prototypes with tape measure and camera", I would like to ask, how does one measure the width of a gangwayed coach with a tape measure? (Let's not make this difficult, let's assume the coach is uncoupled.) OK, so maybe Ian Smith was able to make chalk marks on the ground beneath the tumblehome and measure between them. But how do you measure the height of a coach? Where do you hold the end of the tape measure?

 

We know that Ian Smith made drawings from actual observation - that's why, for example, one of his drawings includes post-nationalisation matchboard repairs, and even a broken window in the brake compartment end! But there's some things I think he could not measure, and then he can only use his impression, and potentially other available sources. Although this is only my speculation, I suspect that he measured the end panelling on the Grampian, but then used the only other source material then obtainable (an Engineer article published in 1905 when the cove-roofed Grampians were introduced to the public, complete with drawings of these new wonders) to complete the roof profile he was unable to measure.

 

As far as I'm aware, all the information I've used additionally (such as end-profile drawings included in the Caledonian Railway Association reprint of the LMS Carriage Diagram Book) has only recently become available. If people like DJ hadn't worked so hard to create interest in preserving historical railway information, I think a large amount of the currently available documents would have gone into the skips into which they were supposed to be thrown as drawing office after office was closed down, instead of being recovered by those who saw their worth.

 

And Stuart, since my time out of the institution is now up and the men in white coats are approaching, with regard to David Jenkinson's book 'British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century: Vol 1 The End of an Era 1901-22'

 

(Trots off to local library - they've got a copy of that...)

 

I think you may be happy to find that p.23 also includes a drawing of the Caledonian Grampian's 6-whl bogie

 

Looking forward to seeing the next instalment. By the way, that matchboarded panelling is bloody great!

 

Neil

[BernardTPM]

That's an interesting thought, although to be honest I think that, if Triang hadn't released the 2 Caley coaches at that time on the back of the nostalgia created by the two then newly restored 57' Caledonian coaches tootling around Scotland (and England too?) behind the gleaming blue Caley Single 123, we would still now be waiting for a first Caley coach of any type.

Purely from a selfish viewpoint, I'm happy too that Triang chose to model 2 authentic coach bodies at their nearly correct lengths to fit the Mk 1 chassis (ie. 65' Grampians with their fully-panelled body style), instead of the alternative of "correctly" representing the semi-panelled/semi-flush bodywork style of the 2 restored coaches but stretched from 57' to the Mk 1 chassis length.

I agree with you on both points. Interesting also that if the 57ft stock is accurately modelled it will have upper panelling as fake as that on the Hornby corridor clerestories!

 

 

 

I came across this comment in a recent thread on RMweb:

 

"From first hand experience, the only accurate way of obtaining detailed drawings is to climb all over an existing prototype with tape measure and camera. Obviously this is not always possible, so careful transposing from pictures is usually ok.

Never trust anybody elses information."

 

True, but with the proviso that what you measure now may not be what was there in the period you're modelling it. As ever, photos to the rescue!

[Guest stuartp]

Purely from a selfish viewpoint, I'm happy too that Triang chose to model 2 authentic coach bodies at their nearly correct lengths to fit the Mk 1 chassis ... at least the fully panelled style is more widely applicable.

 

Funnily enough, an experiment is brewing to see how practicable it would be to alter the panelling to the semi-flush style, either by filing it off or filling it in. I fancy a semi-corridor non-gangwayed brake compo ! More practically, apart from possibly the 'long' brake third, the other diagrams should be do-able with a razor saw and enough spare sides. (Pragmatic 'Tinto Hills Express - BTK/CK/BCK ?)

 

And yet, I suspect that if DJ and Ian Smith were still around today, they would be very encouraging of somebody questioning what they had written through a little research ...

 

... it needs to be remembered just how much of the vast quantity of today's published material, on which such judgements are based, has only been unearthed in the last 20 or 30 years ...

 

... If people like DJ hadn't worked so hard to create interest in preserving historical railway information, I think a large amount of the currently available documents would have gone into the skips into which they were supposed to be thrown

 

Absolutely. On all three counts.

 

David Jenkinson's book 'British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century: Vol 1 The End of an Era 1901-22'

 

stuartp, on 12 July 2011 - 14:34 , said:

 

(Trots off to local library - they've got a copy of that...)

 

I think you may be happy to find that p.23 also includes a drawing of the Caledonian Grampian's 6-whl bogie

 

Turns out they've got volume 2 . I think a trip to 'Search Engine' is called for, I bet they've got a copy.

 

By the way, that matchboarded panelling is bloody great!

 

Ta ! Took longer to take the photo than it did to do the panelling but it makes all the difference !

[45568]

Watching this particular part of the thread with interest as many years ago I repainted the CK into crimson and cream to provide variety in an LMR rake. Might be tempted?

Also admire the articulated set from Airfix bodies, superb idea well modelled!

Cheers, Peter C.

[Barry Rhys]

Afternoon Stuart (well it's afternoon here), hope you won't mind me dragging this thread up screaming from page 4. I'm afraid that although I'm able to look at RMweb frequently, for various reasons I don't get much chance to write - hence the very delayed response to some of your posts (a month - sorry, that's ridiculous!)

 

Looking back to your earlier posts, I noticed you wrote that this coach "has no place in Galloway" - but are you so sure? Apparently by the end of their lives these coaches could be seen pretty much anywhere, even outside Scotland, particularly as extra 'strengthening' stock when required and especially for excursions and the like, where the odd jam sandwich down the seat back would blend easily into the aged fabric, and with plenty of standing and luggage space - ah yes, and toilets! I've just finished reading David Smith's G&SWR "Tales of..." and "Legends of..." pair (brilliant books!), and I can imagine the chaos of Summer Weekend excursions arriving at Stranraer and trying to find temporary storage space for trains of empty carriages just to get them out of the way to allow more in. He also mentions Glasgow Fair Saturdays, with one day 10 trains returning to Stranraer crammed full from Glasgow, 7 of which were Relief trains to the 3 regular services - ideal stuff for aged Grampians! So maybe your harbour at Portwilliam could have developed its charms a little to at least attract a couple of coaches of excursionists off the main Stranraer trains? Or maybe even just to temporarily store empty stock to relieve the space problems at Stranraer - put your Grampian and a couple of other oldies (like the Mainline LMS Period 1 coaches, fr'example) in one of your goods yard tracks for an afternoon. Sorry, just rambling....

 

 

Funnily enough, an experiment is brewing to see how practicable it would be to alter the panelling to the semi-flush style, either by filing it off or filling it in. I fancy a semi-corridor non-gangwayed brake compo ! More practically, apart from possibly the 'long' brake third, the other diagrams should be do-able with a razor saw and enough spare sides. (Pragmatic 'Tinto Hills Express - BTK/CK/BCK ?)

 

Thoughts on cutting-and-shutting Grampians:

 

Although it's fortunate for us that Triang decided to milk the preserved Caley Single's popularity at the time by producing it and these 2 Grampian coaches, unfortunately their choice of coach types was just about the worst possible for any prospective cutter-and-shutter! Firstly, the Compo has 5 x 1st class compartments, but only 3 x 3rds. Then, instead of choosing a matching Brake 3rd, Triang decided to make a Brake Compo that also has more 1sts than 3rds - 4 x 1sts and only 3 x 3rds. So whatever combination of coaches you have, there are always more 1st class compartments than 3rds.

 

At least, I thought, for a 7-compt Brake 3rd I could use 2 coaches' worth of 3rds and fit a spare 1st class compartment as the seventh 3rd. Unfortunately however, the Caledonian (and other railways) made the 1st class compartment windows wider than the 3rds - so you can't use a 1st compartment as a substitute for a 3rd in a cut-and-shut.

 

And as if that weren't enough, the Caley also varied the Grampian compartment sizes to suit each coach layout - correctly modelled by Triang. Hence the Compo 3rd class compartments are wider than the Brake Compo 3rds. Although the difference is only ca.1mm, it falls in the narrow panel between the compartment windows (which is only 2.5mm wide on the Brake Compo), effectively preventing intermixing compartments between compo and brake compo - and nearly everybody has one of each from their childhood! (Just out of interest, having followed many sales of these coaches on eBay, there seem to be approximately 3 compos advertised for every brake compo.)

 

So the attrition rate on coach bodies is horrible. The 7-compt Brake 3rd, for example, realistically requires 3 Triang Brake Compos to supply sufficient 3rd class compartments. You then have 12 1st class compartments left over, which can be used for...errr.... why didn't the Caley ever build any all-First Grampians??? Also, with so many corridor sides left over, I'm still on the lookout for possible coaches with a corridor on both sides....

 

 

Almost done with the body now, I've been putting off doing the bogies !

 

 

Apart from torpedo vents, of which I've run out, that's it for the body until painting. I suppose I'd better get on with the bogies then ...

 

Yes, I actually started writing this that long ago! I thought these phots were really nice, not the overused "I thought this was real, until I saw the bricks in the background" comment (after all, when was a Grampian ever photographed in photographic grey, with white-painted bogies and battery boxes and gold plated truss rods and buffer stocks?), but because the 2 full coach views really do make it look like an O Gauge or maybe even Gauge 1 model. Possibly because the wood beneath it seems like a really hefty 3" x 8" beam or something, I dunno, it just really has some bulk about it - exactly like a 65' Grampian should have.

 

 

I couldn't find any combination of coach springs and axleboxes which looked like those in the photos or drawings, so this is a bit of a lash-up. Axleboxes are by 51L with the top portions cut off to look a bit more like carriage ones:

 

 

12,000 views - blimey !

 

Possible low-stress bogie alternatives:

 

The bogies look good, but stressful. Sorry to have come too late to help you with this - actually the following info could not have improved yours, just maybe saved you some finger nails - but 2 years ago I found an unlikely source of whitemetal castings of combined axleboxes and springs with hangers ideal for these Caleys - Roxey Mouldings. Evidently the SECR, LSWR and LBSCR were all major users of Fox 8ft wheelbase 4-whl bogies, and Roxey Mouldings do a range of etched brass bogies for their etched coaches in a multitude of combinations of Lightweight/Heavyweight, with 3 different patterns of axleboxes, and 3 different types of bolster springs (transverse leaf springs; double coil bolster spings - same as the Caley 4-whl bogies; and (I think!) single coil bolster springs - same as the Caley 6-whl bogies). One of the axlebox types was a 2-sidebolt pattern very similar to yours, but including the leaf springs and secondary end-springs as a single casting (from an SECR bogie I believe, but unfortunately the piccies of each type are no longer on the Roxey site so you'd have to contact them to find out, and likewise for the single coil bolster springs).

 

My plan for bogies was to use one of Bill Bedford's (now Eileen's Emporium's) etched bogie frame sets with the closest wheelbase to the Caley 6'0" - 6'0" as possible, which turns out to be the GNR 5'9" - 5'9", then to fit plasticard overlays and castings mirroring yours. I wasn't particularly interested in springing, but I couldn't find any other etched 6-wheel bogies - the only other bogie that the Caledonian Fox 6-wheel bogie looks like is a Fox 4-wheel bogie! At least with the Bill Bedford etch I would know that all the wheels lined up, and the brake gear is included. Just a possible alternative when you move on to the compo (whoops, did I say that?).

 

 

As well as torpedo vents I've also run out of door handles and lining transfers. The lining goes along the bottom edge of the waist panelling so a bow pen isn't an option, too many lumps and bumps in the way. Just to complicate things the waist panel as moulded by Tri-ang is about half the width it needs to be so it'll be a bit of a compromise anyway. I'll come back to this when the bits arrive.

 

By chance at the weekend I unearthed an ancient Ian Allan booklet of photos in a dusty cardboard box in my cupboard, entitled "British Railways in the 'Fifties - London Midland Region", with a printed-on cover price of 25p! I have no recall whatsoever of where it came from, only that the back cover advertises the monthly Ian Allan railway mags and shows 2 mag covers from 1976 - at which time 25p would just about have been in my pocket money range. Just a 32-page approx A5 sized booklet that apparently was a reprint of a similar publication from the aforesaid 1950's, with all the original captions. Anyway, inside there's a photo taken at Penrith in 1954 of a Manchester - Glasgow express, headed by a Clan and with a Grampian Brake 3rd - the 7-compartment type drawn in Historical Carriage Drawings - as first coach. The photo is from behind the loco, so the coach is passing the photographer in close-up. Just in case it helps, the black/gold waist lining is inside the waist panel, immediately touching the lower moulding but not on it - is that what you meant in your description? It also has the word GUARD in the waist panelling on the left-hand door of the pair, which is not visible on the Historical Carriage Drawing's BCK photo. Sadly, the Penrith photo's great but the coach state isn't, with the brake portion side panels (where you've matchboarded yours) being really filthy, not just faded, with massive great stains on the cream panelling.

 

Look forward to seeing the next stage on these - when you get the vents, I guess.

 

Neil

[Guest Max Stafford]

Stuart, your coach bashing efforts from unlikely origins never fail to impress me. You're like a Punk Coachmann...! ;-)

 

Dave.

[Barry Rhys]

Hey Punk, you lookin' at me?

 

Managed to get permission to come on here, so let's get on with it.... 'Fraid some weird things appear to have happened with the text and quote colouring etc, due to me drafting in my Yahoo E-mail account (to avoid me losing it through RMweb's occasional mid-draft logging-out habit...) then copying + pasting here, so sorry for that if the following message looks unusual.

 

Stuart, astonishing thought transference about the Mainline LMS 'Period 1's! Do you remember how exciting it was when Mainline first started up, I remember seeing their coaches in Beatties and falling in love with the paintwork on the Crimson and Cream Mk1s. Absolutely gorgeous finish, compared to the plasticky shiny self-coloured crap on the Hornby stuff. I think Mainline and Airfix really turned the model railway business upside-down.

 

 

I love this forum - I throw a half-thought-out idea into the ring and somebody else does the research for me

 

 

Actually I didn't do the research just for you

 

Just joking, I know what you meant! You've probably guessed by now that I didn't just do the research for the hell of it - although I must admit I have enjoyed doing it. My plans for building a Grampian or two followed exactly the same genesis as yours. In fact I inherited my 2 Triang Caleys free from a mate at school who was more interested in meaningful things like the Buzzcocks and The Damned - ah, sweet memories - than his childish trainset, and who needed the space to store more of their latest singles. Fast forward several years to when I discovered an article in an old Model Railway Constructor of Feb 1977 where a bloke upgraded his Triang Caley to a 12-whl Grampian by cutting the BR Mk1 ends up to flatten them and converting the bogies to 6-whl by inserting bits of frame, axleboxes and wheels from spare Mk1 bogies! - OK it wasn't the most accurate model ever, but it was damned creative and still looked good. And then finally there was a thread in the last version of RMweb (sorry I can't find it now - but I think you probably contributed) about Triang Caleys to Grampians, maybe even with your photo of the 'GWR Caley' side overlaid on the Historic Carriage Drawings drawing? So maybe you even inspired my research!

 

I still have the first iteration of my glorious plans, awaiting framing and hanging as an epitaph to failed dreams - an enlarged photocopied plan of the 7-compt Brake 3rd, embellished with beautifully drawn sectioning to show which portions would be cut from which parts of my Triang Compo and Brake Compo - 3 x 3rd Class compartments from the Compo, 3 from the Brake Compo, plus a 1st Class compartment reduced to 3rd spacing.... Err, no, I didn't actually think of checking the model sides to see whether the compartment and window sizes were all the same! That came later. Hence the painfully acquired knowledge about the respective window widths. Thankfully I hadn't begun cutting any of the coaches up.

 

Although I did start the project, I got diverted into another coach project that has left the Grampians on the back burner for the moment. But it's great to see you carrying this one through as evidence that it can work - I hope you'll go on with the Brake 3rd too, having gained all the experience with this one I think you'll find it would go very smoothly, and you'll finish up with something fairly unique. Amaze your friends, maybe attract lots of new girlies? Maybe not.

 

 

Thanks very much for the tip about bogies, Roxey is a range I've never used before so I'm not familiar with its contents, looks like some investigation is required. It looks as though they do curly commode handles as well so that might save another job. I had thought about using Comet LMS bogies and just changing the sideframes, but they're 3" a side out in the other direction ! (6'3" + 6'3")

 

 

Regarding the Roxey handrails, when I discovered their Fox bogies I also saw the wealth of other useful coach fittings such as commode handles, and even bought a couple of packets to sample. Unfortunately though none of them match the Caley door handles, which begin at the waist top moulding and continue a couple of mm below the bottom moulding. The LSWR ones are too short, only stretching between top and bottom waist mouldings. The LBSCR ones are much too long, and (on the Roxey LBSCR coaches) begin at the bottom moulding and weirdly stretch upwards way a long way up the door. They are all beautifully fine etchings though. The SECR ones are swan-neck style, and hence perfect for the Midland and - more close to home for you - the G&SWR - ideal for when you turn the Historic Carriage Drawings pages and decide to scratchbuild some 43' Mansons!

 

Having looked at the Comet LMS 6-whl bogie, it would definitely be OK too. I was confused when I first looked at the website some time ago by the mention of "whitemetal casting sideframes", and had thought that the bogie had only an etched centre stretcher and rigid whitemetal sideframes, hence preventing plasticard overlays, wheel removability, bogie flexibility and all the other benefits of etched frames. But now I see that the key word I missed is "whitemetal cosmetic sideframes", and looking at the PDF instructions the full brass etch looks very good, and a bit cheaper than the Bill Bedford ones - and maybe the LMS sidebolt axleguards resemble the Caley's and could be used too, it's difficult to see. I'm not sure whether 6'3" + 6'3" would look better or worse (or no different) than 5'9" + 5'9", or may affect the minimum curve radius at all. I wonder what wheelbase the Comet GWR 6-whl bogie has? - unfortunately the website doesn't say.

 

 

That's exactly what I meant - the lining runs across the bottom inside corners in exactly the right place to cause all sorts of bowpen problems. I'm hoping lining transfers and setting solution will work but I've used all my stock up and not got round to ordering any more yet. The lining on the brake third in CJ Gammell's Pre-Grouping Trains on British Railways has the lining straight through the middle of the panelling which would have been easier. I'm working off a photocopy of Historic Carriage Drawings but I think the GUARD lettering on the BCK is on the lower panelling of the left hand door, with the waist panels painted a darker colour - presumably grey.

 

 

I see what you mean about the lining being difficult - right along the curve of every moulding joint. I suspect you're going to have fun with a fine brush and paint touching up the bits of transfer that won't go round the corners.

 

After your comment about the 'GUARD' lettering placement, I checked my photo again. Unfortunately I had forgotten the basic rule "Depress clutch - engage brain - open mouth", thereby stalling my memory. Indeed on my photo too, the word GUARD appears on the lower panelling of the left-hand door, not in the waist panel as I had said. Sorry. However, only the right-hand door waist panel is painted the dark colour, and the left door has the normal cream colour. As you say, the Historic Carriage Drawings photo has both guard's door waist panels grey. So with your CJ Gammell photo having a different lining position, that's 3 photos, 3 different variations! That's what I love about British Railways' standardisation, so many variations!!

 

OK, permit's expired, got to think of an excuse for getting home late now...

 

Neil

[carlislecitadel]

I've thought about making some GSWR 43' stock as well. I'd looked at using ratio MR suburbans, taking out one compartment, slicing the along their length in the middle of the waist panelling to reduce the height there, and filing the bottom of the windows square. Does anyone who knows about this stock think that is a viable method or would it be quicker to do it all from scratch?

[James]

Not a very constructive post but just been right through this thread and thoroughly enjoyed it