johnshutts Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 A minefield to be sure John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 May be able to do more train consists from 2009/2010/2011, and some mixed partial consists based on images from Peak Forest in 2007 when most HOA were newly painted for Cemex but before the new EWS/Cemex IIA order bumped the old RMC JGA's out of that traffic - will have a dig and see what I can come up with... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2016 Tops designations work......irregularly. There used to be some logic behind the codings under BR but as things have evolved since privatisation there is less and less logic behind the codes, as reasons for decisions become irrelevant over time. You are better off not trying to understand the logic, some ways things are coded in 2016 are 'wrong' based on the original BR logic for example - including private owner bogie hoppers getting the code HOA! I know that doesn't help much, sorry! No, it does, thank you! As you were everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2016 Hi there, I've seen a few photos of consists which appear to include JGAs in what looks like a debranded version of the Buxton Lime Industries livery produced by Farish. Is there anyone who knows the workings that could confirm whether or not this was the case as it'd make for an interesting combination alongside the HOAs. Cheers John See my notes above - there are JGA / HOA combos in there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted December 9, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2016 Not a Buxton lime JGA, but a debranded RMC JGA next to a HOA. Backing in to Peak Forest JGA HOA.jpg The train was quite a mix of hopper types. HOAa.jpg HOAb.jpg HOAc.jpg Ignore the file names - just my quick shorthand picture edit..... Cheers, Mick Hello all, Thanks for those pics, Mick. One of the reasons for opting for the HOAs was that they are, arguably, the "missing link" in terms of so many aggregate trains. From the top, the orange RMC hoppers are available from Farish, and painting out the RMC markings is relatively straightforward using Halfords black aerosol. The HOA is next to the curved sided RMC hoppers built by Standard Wagon - these are the type depicted in the NGS kit (which builds both batches including the original ones for Hall Aggregates later absorbed into the main RMC fleet.) The next photo shows the RFS type build shortly after the curved sided ones - there are a relatively small number of these (25 I think) but they are not available RTR or as kits. The angled sides and relatively plain detailing make them a good candidate for a scratchbuild though. Then there are the IIAs. EWSjo did a conversion of these from the similar but longer Farish HHA coal hopper a few years back - here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43870-jos-n-gauge-wagon-works/ - but I think a simpler solution going forward might be to start with the forthcoming Dapol HIA Freightliner hoppers; these are already available in OO but should be here in N fairly soon, and possibly before the HOAs depending on how quickly we get to our minimum order and get started. cheers Ben A. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Hi njee, The Hanson (ex ARC) JHAs are attractive but the characteristic inside-bearing bogies present significant difficulties. The only comparable bogies I am aware of in British N are those on the Voyagers, and have much more drag than the pin-point bearing types. This isn't a huge problem on a four car passenger train, where there are six trailing bogies, but on even a relatively light aggregate train of 12 hoppers you're looking at 24 bogies. Cheers Ben A. The only way I can think of to reduce the drag would be to have self-lubricating tubular bearings to hold the axle (i.e.PTFE tube)- this would be fiddly enough in 4mm scale, let alone 2mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Hi there, I've seen a few photos of consists which appear to include JGAs in what looks like a debranded version of the Buxton Lime Industries livery produced by Farish. Is there anyone who knows the workings that could confirm whether or not this was the case as it'd make for an interesting combination alongside the HOAs. Cheers John The ex BLI JGAs are now VTG owned and are plain white, like this, working services in the Peak District still. 10th May 2013 at Westbury - Believe this was also the Whatley-St Pancras working but I didn't record it for sure: Yep that looks like either 6M20 or 6A26, both the same path and wagons but goes to either St Pancras or Hayes. It's the only train out of the Mendip quarries to use those wagons. I've scratched my head whilst watching the Apprentice and I think I've got all the locations that see Mendip traffic in hoppers. If I remember any others I'll add them in. The list is broken into three parts, London terminals served from Merehead, non - London terminals served from Merehead and finally terminals served by Whatley. I can't believe I forgot the Eastleigh and Botley traffic previously, this runs every night of the week! Talk about right in front of your nose... Served from Merehead (any mix of Yeoman JHA, Mendip IIA and Mendip HOA) ActonAngerstein Brentford Bow West Ferme Park Harlow Mill Purley Tolworth Watford Wootton BassettTheale Eastleigh Botley Served from Whatley (any mix of Hanson JHA, Mendip IIA and Mendip HOA) AllingtonArdingly Dagenham Theale West Drayton As previously mentioned, West Drayton also sees services from Avonmouth and Machen and Ardingly from Cliffe Hill, utilising the same Whatley based wagon sets. Jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Anything with an I prefix means it is internationally registered (with a RIV number rather than a shorter wagon number used in the UK). Many TOPS codes cover more than one type of wagon now, presumably because there isn't enough codes for all the possible variations. There is a good description here: http://www.ltsv.com/w_ref_codes_tops.php Cheers, Mike Looking at who owns the internationally-registered wagons, it would seem they're all European leasing companies; perhaps the idea is to have vehicles that already have type approval on the Continent, in the event of a fall in demand on the UK side. Individual TOPS codes have covered a multitude of very different vehicles over the years- IFA being one of the broadest categories, and TTA being another. There is a fourth 'silent' character that appears on documentation, but which is rarely painted on the data panel, so you could have TTA(B), TTA© and so on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2016 A couple of examples with HOA / JGA (and PGA) trains 11 October 2016 (HOA - EWS 320003) 66012 on 6Z43, 11:30, Trowse Yard Redland Siding - Wembley Eur Frt Ops Center (21:23) - empty stone (6 JGA, 1 HOA, 11 JGA) 21 June 2016 66138 on 6L39, 06:37, Mountsorrel Sdgs - Trowse Yard Redland Siding (11:51) - loaded stone (5 HOA, 3 PGA, 2 JGA, 8 HOA, 1 PGA) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Looking at who owns the internationally-registered wagons, it would seem they're all European leasing companies; perhaps the idea is to have vehicles that already have type approval on the Continent, in the event of a fall in demand on the UK side. Individual TOPS codes have covered a multitude of very different vehicles over the years- IFA being one of the broadest categories, and TTA being another. There is a fourth 'silent' character that appears on documentation, but which is rarely painted on the data panel, so you could have TTA(B), TTA© and so on. Trying to put the Tops code evolution of the last couple of years into the context of this fleet - when the EWS batch of HOA were delivered they came with UK domestic numbers (3200xx) and coded reasonably logically in to H**, which was intended for railway-owned hopper wagons. All was relatively predictable (though confusion over what was 'railway owned' and what was 'private owner' already existed elsewhere as privatisation made that a rather different thing to what had gone before...!) When the follow on batch for EWS/Cemex (the IIA-B) arrived a couple of years after the HOA the rules had changed and they had to come with international numbers, and somebody obviously decided to put them under I for International, even then the EWS batch ought properly to have been coded HIA under the old BR system (though that was already in use by non international numbered wagons!) and the MRL batch IIA as one is railway owned (EWS) and the other private owner. After a couple of years of every new wagon on the whole network getting coded I** somebody has obviously twigged that's unsustainable and has gone back to using a first letter denoting a basic type - but the rules appear to be applied a little differently to how it used to be, with HOA being reused for essentially the same wagons, but now private owner versions. (There's still odd inconsistencies though, over on the box wagons Freightliner and DBS's are M, GBRF and private owner's are J.....!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted December 9, 2016 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) Hello Jo, Thanks for that update. I have amended the map to include the Eastleigh/Botley trains, and altered the Dagenham link to Tarmac. The remainder of the London area terminals - Ferme Park, West Drayton, Brentford, Bow, Tolworth, Purley - will have to remain unlisted as there just isn't room. But I think the picture of commonplace these wagons are in the south east is fairly clear! cheers Ben A. Edited December 9, 2016 by Ben A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Hi Ben, Apologies if I've caused confusion, Dagenham is definitely Mendip, it's a Hanson owned depot. It's Hayes and St Pancras that are Tarmac trains Jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2016 The only way I can think of to reduce the drag would be to have self-lubricating tubular bearings to hold the axle (i.e.PTFE tube)- this would be fiddly enough in 4mm scale, let alone 2mm. Mendip Models did some in OO, I had some years ago, I don't remember excessive drag on the axles, nor do I remember them being particularly complex, but I forget how they did it! Lyneux of this parish has done some really nicely detailed ones too with 3D printed bogies here. Weren't the bogies on the JMAs the same originally? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) 2007 partial consists from Peak Forest - all HOA listed are in full Cemex paint, all JGA are in full RMC paint:30th Sep 2007 - Partial rake of empties being shunted - the numbers start from approximately the end of the MEA rake out to the loco:HOA x4JGA RMC192xxHOA x2JGA RMC192xx x2JGA RMC172xx x2then...JGA RMC19245HOA 320055JGA RMC19223JGA RMC17226JGA RMC19231JGA RMC17241HOA 320052JGA RMC19244JGA RMC19236JGA RMC17235 JGA RMC172xxHOA 320028JGA RMC1723860094 - EWS PaintThe rake in the sidings in the distance in the shot above includes (partial rake, not necessarily in the right order either): HOA 320054HOA 320009 HOA 320036HOA 320064HOA 320002HOA 320024HOA 320037Same day - outbound loads with no loco stabled in the runround - this I believe is the complete rake (right of shot) - the tanks might suggest a rake for a Bletchley working?:PCA RMC10042PCA RMC10045JGA RMC17237JGA RMC17230JGA RMC19243 HOA 320039JGA RMC19228JGA RMC17223JGA RMC17243JGA RMC192xxJGA RMC19222HOA 320000HOA 320001JGA RMC17225JGA RMC19225JGA RMC17236HOA 320031 (already heavily graffiti'd!)JGA RMC19242JGA RMC17239HOA 320012HOA 320008HOA 320019HOA 320048JGA RMC17244JGA RMC1922030th Oct 2007 - Partial consist of this departing rake of loads: From the rear - all HOA's in full Cemex branding, all JGA's in full RMC branding:HOA 320044 HOA ? HOA 320058JGA RMC19244HOA 320009 HOA ?JGA RMC17242....JGA RMC17236 was also in the rake...loco was 60039 in EWS paint, unfortunately it took off before I could shoot the rest, occupational hazard! Edited December 9, 2016 by Glorious NSE 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Don't think i'd said, but individual wagon photo's for any I've listed are on my site (link in sig below) - either search by type using the TOPS code, or go into 'Day Tripping' and look at the shots for each day I've listed. If I get chance to dig out old Freightmaster books I might take a stab at train IDs later....North (West) bound empty train at Peterborough - 31/07/09 - all wagons in this train were in patched Cemex livery.66170 - EWSHOA 320018 IIA 33706955082-6IIA 33706955086-7IIA 33706955093-3HOA 320032HOA 320058HOA 320050HOA 320012HOA 320054IIA 33706955098-2HOA 320014HOA 320009IIA 33706955099-0 18th May 2010 - Eastbound empties at Acton Mainline 66025 - EWS HOA 320007 - EWSHOA 320026 - EWSHOA 320002 - Patched CemexHOA 320040 - EWSHOA 320011 - EWSHOA 320021 - EWSIIA 33706955097-4 - Patched CemexHOA 3200xx - Patched CemexHOA 320003 - EWSHOA 320020 - EWSIIA 33706955101-4 - Patched CemexHOA 320060 - Patched CemexHOA 3200xx - Patched CemexHOA 320017 - EWSIIA 33706955093-3 - Patched CemexHOA 3200xx - EWS HOA 320027 - EWSHOA 320024 - Patched Cemex 11th Oct 2011 - Northbound Loads at Doncaster66164 - EWSHOA 320023 - EWSHOA 320057 - Patched CemexHOA 320066 - Patched CemexHOA 320033 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955071-9 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955087-5 - Patched CemexHOA 320012 - Patched CemexHOA 320059 - Patched CemexHOA 320058 - Patched CemexHOA 320019 - Patched CemexHOA 320044 - Patched CemexHOA 320031 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955086-7 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955077-6 - Patched CemexHOA 320006 - Patched CemexHOA 320000 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955089-1 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955099-0 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955100-6 - Patched CemexHOA 320032 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955075-0 - Patched CemexIIA 33706955084-2 - Patched CemexHOA 320043 - EWSIIA 33706955072-7 - Patched Cemex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2016 Todays offering was again 66101 with 14 HOA in tow Eccles Road 09 December 2016 66101 on 6L39, 06:37, Mountsorrel Sdgs - Trowse Yard Redland Siding (11:51) - loaded stone (14 HOA) 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2016 Don't think i'd said, but individual wagon photo's for any I've listed are on my site (link in sig below) - either search by type using the TOPS code, or go into 'Day Tripping' and look at the shots for each day I've listed. If I get chance to dig out old Freightmaster books I might take a stab at train IDs later.... North (West) bound empty train at Peterborough - 31/07/09 - all wagons in this train were in patched Cemex livery. 66170 - EWS 18th May 2010 - Eastbound empties at Acton Mainline 66025 - EWS 11th Oct 2011 - Northbound Loads at Doncaster 66164 - EWS 66170 worked to Peterborough on 6Z17, Dowlow - Peterborough so this was presumably a Peterborough - Dowlow return. 66025 was at Mountsorrel on 17/05 and worked Hayes - Moreton on Lugg on 19/05 which may help identify the working 66164 was 6E51,Peak Forest - Selby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2016 Todays offering was again 66101 with 14 HOA in tow Eccles Road 09 December 2016 66101 on 6L39, 06:37, Mountsorrel Sdgs - Trowse Yard Redland Siding (11:51) - loaded stone (14 HOA) DAS698872.jpg I have 66101 (repainted before Bachmann announced theirs - b*gger) - just need the wagons............... Cheers, Mick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) 66170 worked to Peterborough on 6Z17, Dowlow - Peterborough so this was presumably a Peterborough - Dowlow return. 66025 was at Mountsorrel on 17/05 and worked Hayes - Moreton on Lugg on 19/05 which may help identify the working 66164 was 6E51,Peak Forest - Selby. In the FM book I dug out, 6Z17 was a Dowlow-Barham, which fed a 6Z18 Barham-Dowlow return, it was passing through Peterborough station so must have come from somewhere East of there. The second - pretty sure the train was the 6M68 Hayes to Stud Farm empties at the time. Not sure how the loco would have got from Mountsorrel onto it (but the wagons standard diagram would have done, so far as I can tell something like: Sat 15th - 6Z76 Stud Farm to Acton Mon 17th - ? Acton to Hayes - then 6B35 Hayes to Moreton-On-Lugg then 6A35 Moreton-On-Lugg to Hayes (overnight) Tue 18th - 6M68 Hayes to Stud Farm The loco must then have done a quick turn round at Stud Farm (presumably taking a different wagon rake) to form the overnight 6V76 Stud Farm to Hayes so it's back on the Hayes to MOL train on Weds 19th? (Kinda shows how these rakes get around though!) Third one, spot on. Edited December 9, 2016 by Glorious NSE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I'd meant to add a couple of pictures of the local workings last time I posted. All show 6M20, Whatley - St Pancras First is from August 26th 2016, the standard mix of class 66 and HOAs and IIAs. Class 59/2s are the usual deputising loco when no 66 is available, as a DB working it is booked DB rather than Mendip traction, 59204 on 16/5/14 and 59203 on 3/7/14. Both have an odd RMC wagon in the mix too. Finally, on very rare occasions a Mendip 59 ends up on the set as a result of loco shortages, more than likely to failure. I don't know why this double header happened as I was off work that week, but I'm guessing the 66 had issues whilst still at Whatley. Finally, some interesting weathering to replicate... Jo 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted December 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 22, 2016 In the newsletter we've just sent out we've announced that the deadline for expressions of interest is 31 January 2017. We've been really pleased with the level of interest so far, but it is very helpful to us (in terms of livery choices and running number options) if people express their interest (no financial commitment). Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 6, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) Hello all, I happened to catch the Mountsorrel-Kennet train just outside Whittesea (self proclaimed "Gateway to the Fens"!) yesterday morning when it was bright and sunny. The train was entirely comprised of HOAs... I was surprised how clean and undented the wagons were - not even any graffiti! Cheers Ben A. Edited January 6, 2017 by Ben A 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Robert Shrives Posted January 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2017 Ben, New to traffic and give it time ..... Last week trains were being tagged at signals outside Birmingham New st while waiting for platforms....grr!! However a guick thinking crew and BTP on the double got person following day "paint handed." Robert 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2017 Some of the HOA have been tagged for a while now, here's one earlier this week but there's been the odd one around for a good while. Eccles Road 03 January 2017 66014 on 6L39, 06:37, Mountsorrel Sdgs - Trowse Yard Redland Siding (11:51) - loaded stone (14 HOA) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 6, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2017 Hi Das, Thanks for posting those. (Whispering) From a modelling point of view I quite like the occasional graffitied vehicle in a rake... Cheers Ben A. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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