paul 27 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 (edited) Looks like all the discount ones have sold, is Hornby releasing any more. Edited November 16, 2017 by paul 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 Hi, a nice lineup of LMS power there! What is the provenance of 46251 and the princess? The duchess seems to have reversible valve gear? Hi! 46251 is a build from the Ltd Edition Model Loco kit of about 30 years ago(!) The kit was actually for (4)6230-6234 so the tender wasn't right as 46251 was one of a batch of 4 (6249-6252) that were intended to be streamlined but never were - but the tenders were already built as streamlined. So I had to modify the tender as best I could to represent a former streamlined one. I like valve gear(!) so I depicted her in full forward gear, including working rocking levers. The gear is not reversible - I do fancy the challenge of doing that on a 4mm loco. The princess (46208) is scratchbuilt, also about 30 years ago. Both have done many miles on this and my Dad's previous layout. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 Rather enjoyed the comparison with 30 year old kits, so here is a "me too", comparing my Ivatt Duchess with Turbomotive. Like the post before, the iPhone has lightened the paint colour on the kit loco which is actually closer to Hornby's colour. I have to say, the valve gear on Turbomotive is no where as complex as the other two kits! ;-) Despite having a trailing pony, Turbomotive won,t run on anything less than 3 ft radius. Which was fine for a club with 4ft, but cannot run on my current layout. Enjoy the pick: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul 27 Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 (edited) Has this been totally retooled the body/chassis looks very much like the existing model just wondering what the future models to be released will be like talking about the stanier not the present ivatt one. Edited November 16, 2017 by paul 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Market65 Posted November 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2017 Hello, paul 27. It is totally retooled with nothing left from the original model. You will be pleasantly surprised with the new model, I was! Best regards, Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitalspark Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 (edited) All this talk off 46251 reminds me it was the subject of likely the fastest recorded run of a Duchess in Scotland. 105mph through Beattock station on the up Mid Day Scot running 8 late through Carstairs. Published by O S Nock in his book '60 years of West Coast Running' so its authenticated. Must have been something to have been standing on the platform waiting for the local to Moffat when that lot came through! Dave. Edited November 16, 2017 by vitalspark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 All this talk off 46251 reminds me it was the subject of likely the fastest recorded run of a Duchess in Scotland. 105mph through Beattock station on the up Mid Day Scot running 8 late through Carstairs. Published by O S Nock in his book '60 years of West Coast Running' so its authenticated. Must have been something to have been standing on the platform waiting for the local to Moffat when that lot came through! IMG_1314.jpg Dave. Well there's some inspiration for a photo! Most likely in the 'Best Ever' thread in due course. Thanks for the inspiration! Would that have been in BR green days? I have a Hornby weathered 46251 in crimson but can no doubt find a way, actually it would be nice to know the date so I can get some details right... Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitalspark Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) There was no date given but the adjacent logs of Princesses Jubilees and brits were all '58 - '59 so its likely it would be around then. I went back several pages for a clue to the date but could find nothing regarding this log. Its likely that the date was not linked to it at the time for obvious reasons as it was well over the line speed limit and although the book was published some 15 years later there was possibly still a feeling of keeping it anonymous. Adjacent logs of Princesses in the late 50s were equally impressive with 46208 & 46209 covering the 82 miles Rugby to Euston start to stop in 70 & 68 mins respectively both hauling 490 tons and with speed in the 90s..96 in the case of 46209. Impressive machines indeed. Dave. Edited November 17, 2017 by vitalspark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocp Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Hello, paul 27. It is totally retooled with nothing left from the original model. You will be pleasantly surprised with the new model, I was! Best regards, Rob. That's not completely correct. The deflectors are the ones of the old model, as are some of the lubricators etc along the footplate (not all of them are). Though that seems to be about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) There was no date given but the adjacent logs of Princesses Jubilees and brits were all '58 - '59 so its likely it would be around then. I went back several pages for a clue to the date but could find nothing regarding this log. Its likely that the date was not linked to it at the time for obvious reasons as it was well over the line speed limit and although the book was published some 15 years later there was possibly still a feeling of keeping it anonymous. Adjacent logs of Princesses in the late 50s were equally impressive with 46208 & 46209 covering the 82 miles Rugby to Euston start to stop in 70 & 68 mins respectively both hauling 490 tons and with speed in the 90s..96 in the case of 46209. Impressive machines indeed. IMG_1315.jpg Dave. Great, I think I might be able to do a pic with a maroon 46251.... but I'll check Irwell first. I agree the Princesses were outstanding machines, often overlooked. Thanks Don't know if I'm allowed to post edited pictures here, but here is 6231 at Thankerton just south of Carstairs with an up Royal Scot, based on a pic in another O S Nock book about the 1931-39 LMS era. Will remove if requested. Cheers, Edit; 46251 went maroon in 11/58 so O S Nock's run was probably in maroon, and Hornby have a weathered version... hmmm, I'd be surprised if it was unusually dirty in 1959... but what would I know? Edited November 17, 2017 by robmcg 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ikks Posted November 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 17, 2017 That's not completely correct. The deflectors are the ones of the old model, as are some of the lubricators etc along the footplate (not all of them are). Though that seems to be about it. Hi Brocp, I emailed Islsey re the fitting of metal deflectors pretty much when this model was announced, he answered no, they could not incorporate enough detail in metal and.that I would be pleasantly surprised, as these were new tooling and much thinner than the old design. Having said that I do not own an older version for comparison. I will still replace mine with etched versions as mentioned in an earlier post. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocp Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) Hi Brocp, I emailed Islsey re the fitting of metal deflectors pretty much when this model was announced, he answered no, they could not incorporate enough detail in metal and.that I would be pleasantly surprised, as these were new tooling and much thinner than the old design. Having said that I do not own an older version for comparison. I will still replace mine with etched versions as mentioned in an earlier post. Mike Hi Mike, I've just received mine in the post from Rails of Sheffield (I'm in Australia) and started pulling it down to detail it and repaint it in to LMS 46 lined black. The deflectors in my opinion are the worst part of the model, they have slightly different mounting lugs than the old ones had, but in terms of thickness and detail they are exactly the same as the old ones were and thus they will be binned for the much better Comet ones. Also getting binned will be the whistle, while better and in the right position as opposed to the older tooling, still woild be improved with a brass one. Cab doors as well for the Brassmasters etch. The front bogie is a vast improvement over the older one, though the Comet etched version is probably still better. The mounting for the bogie is fantastic though. Wheels as Coachmann has pointed out will be replaced by the Gibson Bevel bogie type. Rivet detail is on another level, the older tooling looks quite welded in comparison. Thumbs up to Hornby on the completely new tooling for the tender. For me that's the best part of the model. Overall it's a brilliant model, my only question will be, will they retool the Streamlined models as well finally giving us a true super detailed Princess? Broc. Edited November 17, 2017 by Brocp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Hi Mike, I've just received mine in the post from Rails of Sheffield (I'm in Australia) and started pulling it down to detail it and repaint it in to LMS 46 lined black. The deflectors in my opinion are the worst part of the model, they have slightly different mounting lugs than the old ones had, but in terms of thickness and detail they are exactly the same as the old ones were and thus they will be binned for the much better Comet ones. Also getting binned will be the whistle, while better and in the right position as opposed to the older tooling, still woild be improved with a brass one. Cab doors as well for the Brassmasters etch. The front bogie is a vast improvement over the older one, though the Comet etched version is probably still better. The mounting for the bogie is fantastic though. Wheels as Coachmann has pointed out will be replaced by the Gibson Bevel bogie type. Rivet detail is on another level, the older tooling looks quite welded in comparison. Thumbs up to Hornby on the completely new tooling for the tender. For me that's the best part of the model. Overall it's a brilliant model, my only question will be, will they retool the Streamlined models as well finally giving us a true super detailed Princess? Broc. I’m sure they’ve popped into B&Q to look at baths. Perhaps next year or the year after, I think we can expect a streamliner. A Princess would be logical. No doubt Duchesses will promote a demand for Princesses and another West Coast double (Princess and AC electric?) would be nice but Hornby might well decide to go for something completely different. Who knows? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted November 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 17, 2017 That's not completely correct. The deflectors are the ones of the old model, as are some of the lubricators etc along the footplate (not all of them are). Though that seems to be about it. I think its testament to how good the last version of the Duchess was that there are parts of the new one that seem to be carried over, But I do believe the designer when he says its all new. I think what we are seeing is the similarity in 'house style' rather than the same parts. I do agree though that the 3 area's that would most lift the model are etched deflectors, thinner tender sides and replacement bogie wheels. Oh, and etched plates all round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ikks Posted November 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) Hi Mike, I've just received mine in the post from Rails of Sheffield (I'm in Australia) and started pulling it down to detail it and repaint it in to LMS 46 lined black. The deflectors in my opinion are the worst part of the model, they have slightly different mounting lugs than the old ones had, but in terms of thickness and detail they are exactly the same as the old ones were and thus they will be binned for the much better Comet ones. Also getting binned will be the whistle, while better and in the right position as opposed to the older tooling, still woild be improved with a brass one. Cab doors as well for the Brassmasters etch. The front bogie is a vast improvement over the older one, though the Comet etched version is probably still better. The mounting for the bogie is fantastic though. Wheels as Coachmann has pointed out will be replaced by the Gibson Bevel bogie type. Rivet detail is on another level, the older tooling looks quite welded in comparison. Thumbs up to Hornby on the completely new tooling for the tender. For me that's the best part of the model. Overall it's a brilliant model, my only question will be, will they retool the Streamlined models as well finally giving us a true super detailed Princess? Broc. Yes I agree Broc, it is a brilliant model and deserves etched deflectors which with mine is going to happen........there is a thread on here somewhere showing the Hornby Brit with ( i think !) Dave Frank's or Mike Edge etched deflectors and the difference to that front on appearance is absolutely incredible............anyway Hornby have done a magnificent job with this one, just waiting to see what the guru's in MRJ can do do to it. The Princess for me would have to be Hornby's next project....beautiful engines. Mike Edited November 17, 2017 by ikks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitalspark Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 6231 at Thankerton just south of Carstairs with an up Royal Scot, based on a pic in another O S Nock book about the 1931-39 LMS era. 6231_Princess_Duchess_Atholl_country2_5abcdef_r1200.jpg ..complete with Caley 'Bow Tie' which was often carried by Polmadie locos right to the end on certain routes. 2-6-4 tanks on the Gourock/Wemyss bay service carried these well into the mid 60s although I didn't see any on the front of locos on the Carlisle run by then. Would make a interesting addition to any model running on the ex Caledonian routes and sure to raise a question at shows south of the border. Dave. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocp Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 I think its testament to how good the last version of the Duchess was that there are parts of the new one that seem to be carried over, But I do believe the designer when he says its all new. I think what we are seeing is the similarity in 'house style' rather than the same parts. I do agree though that the 3 area's that would most lift the model are etched deflectors, thinner tender sides and replacement bogie wheels. Oh, and etched plates all round Very interesting point Mike in that first sentence. I personally believe it isn't a quantum leap over the older model compared to what Hornby did with the Brit or the A4 compared to their previous models, showing that the older one was actually fairly good overall, at least in terms of the locomotive, maybe not so the tender. The new tender is top shelf and since they are going to be producing 6 different versions to be able to make all locomotives from the class (including 6253-6255 that Hornby haven't done yet since 2000), hopefully they'll retool the 9 ton Stanier tender as well for the Rebuilt Scot/Patriot, Black 5 and 8F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Very interesting point Mike in that first sentence. I personally believe it isn't a quantum leap over the older model compared to what Hornby did with the Brit or the A4 compared to their previous models, showing that the older one was actually fairly good overall, at least in terms of the locomotive, maybe not so the tender. The new tender is top shelf and since they are going to be producing 6 different versions to be able to make all locomotives from the class (including 6253-6255 that Hornby haven't done yet since 2000), hopefully they'll retool the 9 ton Stanier tender as well for the Rebuilt Scot/Patriot, Black 5 and 8F. The previous version did start life by sharing some parts with the tender drives. But these were slowly evolved out meaning the later years versions were practically all new tooling compare with the tender drives. The later previous and current versions can sit side by side on a layout and nothing will instantly strike you that they are different toolings. However when you get close, you quickly see the new bogie set up and full cab detail and opening vents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarnish1 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Hello there, I'm new to the forum - I'm a semi-retired academic back in the UK after a time working in the US. I am reacquainting my interest in railway modelling and have just received "Sir William". Now to work on it. Can you tell me if the factory tender close coupling option works and secondly if it is possible to add a fall plate? Any ideas most welcome. Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Hello there, I'm new to the forum - I'm a semi-retired academic back in the UK after a time working in the US. I am reacquainting my interest in railway modelling and have just received "Sir William". Now to work on it. Can you tell me if the factory tender close coupling option works and secondly if it is possible to add a fall plate? Any ideas most welcome. Many thanks Welcome. The factory tender close coupling option only works if you snip off half of the outer hole to clear the electric plug. There should be a fall plate on the loco. Mine fell off even before I tested the loco, so probably best to look around the floor before you vacuum it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarnish1 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Many thanks for this information. I haven't opened my model yet but will be careful not to lose the fall plate when I do. Something completely different but reminded by the Duchess of Atholl model also just released. I recall that in circa 1939 Hornby Dublo announced their model of this Duchess but it was not released until after WW2. The illustration put out possessed the original single chimney. Hornby did produce a single prototype locomotive with this which might have been used for these pre-war publicity shots. I wonder whatever happened to this very rare model. Any thoughts please? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 (edited) One of the 'real' Duchesses at Rhyl.... Click for clearer view. Edited November 18, 2017 by coachmann 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 I went to Chester this morning to get a shot of Duchess of Sutherland... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 I went to Chester this morning to get a shot of Duchess of Sutherland... Duchess of Sutherland.JPG Worrapenned....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted November 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 18, 2017 Worrapenned....? Someone's taken photo-shopping to the extreme - looks like a Jubilee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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