Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[atom3624]

Obviously it's some time ago, and you can 'never say never', but I'm pretty certain it was 'a smaller 4-6-0 with wheels the same size as the Royal Scot and DoS.

 

I still have it in my mind it was a Jubilee, not a 'Five' - which IS possible, I admit.

 

I'm curious now!!

It would have been anywhere between 1974 to 1977.

 

Al.

 

For looks, even if not correct probably, I prefer DoS without the blinkers - just looked more robust!

Edited July 29, 2019 by atom3624

[MikeParkin65]

2 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

Obviously it's some time ago, and you can 'never say never', but I'm pretty certain it was 'a smaller 4-6-0 with wheels the same size as the Royal Scot and DoS.

 

I still have it in my mind it was a Jubilee, not a 'Five' - which IS possible, I admit.

 

I'm curious now!!

 

Al.

 

For looks, even if not correct probably, I prefer DoS without the blinkers - just looked more robust!

Bressingham is of course not rail connected and there was much less use of road haulage to move loco's around in the '70's and 80's than there is now. I used to (in fact still do!) follow the railway press and particularly preservation very closely - the move of a mainline loco to or from Bressingham would have been a pretty major event. This is what I am passing my 100% not a Jubilee (or a class 5) on.

 

Agree re 6233 though  - I prefer to see it in LMS livery without the deflectors as per Robs magnificent picture further up this thread. 

[tetsudofan]

..and talking about the Princess Coronations I was behind one on Saturday:

 

 

Photo taken at a rather damp, wet and miserable Paddington Station. An "old & new" pic taken later on the way to the West Somerset Railway:

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

31 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

Obviously it's some time ago, and you can 'never say never', but I'm pretty certain it was 'a smaller 4-6-0 with wheels the same size as the Royal Scot and DoS.

 

I still have it in my mind it was a Jubilee, not a 'Five' - which IS possible, I admit.

 

I'm curious now!!

It would have been anywhere between 1974 to 1977.

 

Al.

 

For looks, even if not correct probably, I prefer DoS without the blinkers - just looked more robust!

I prefer it without them too.

If my notes are correct, it got the double chimney in 1941 then deflectors in 1946 before being painted in 1946 black a year later.

The deflectors were fitted to lift smoke away from the driver's view, so were fitted for safety reasons. I can't imagine anyone who knows that would allow it to run on the main line without them.

 

I have wondered if the problem of drifting smoke was made worse by the double chimney & that with a single, the exhaust blast would have been more fierce, carrying the smoke away more easily?

[Paul_sterling]

34 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

[snip]

 

I have wondered if the problem of drifting smoke was made worse by the double chimney & that with a single, the exhaust blast would have been more fierce, carrying the smoke away more easily?

 

Correct, single chimney, fiercer blast, changing to double chimney and smoke drifting was an issue for many classes of locomotive. 

 

Cheers, Paul. 

[cctransuk]

4 hours ago, Paul_sterling said:

 

Correct, single chimney, fiercer blast, changing to double chimney and smoke drifting was an issue for many classes of locomotive. 

 

Cheers, Paul. 

 

Presumably, though, there were benefits in changing to a double blastpipe that outweighed the problems of smoke drifting; they weren't daft back then!

 

Changes that cost money had to be justified financially.

 

Can the more technically gifted elucidate?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[robmcg]

I'm by no means technically gifted but double blastpipes especially Kylchap types meant far better exhaust scavenging and use of available energy in steam...  equals economy and more easily-sustained power at high work-rates.

Gresley A3s were transformed at higher sustained speeds, by all accounts.

 

I DO know about internal combustion engines and valve overlap. Nothing is simple!

 

Many other factors are involved.

 

Here is Montrose in the favoured style early in WW2...  will remove if it offends.  Another 'mostly' Hornby model...

 

 

Bevelled front wheels, front brake shoes, double chimney. ..  early 1940 I think.

 

 

[Paul_sterling]

10 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Presumably, though, there were benefits in changing to a double blastpipe that outweighed the problems of smoke drifting; they weren't daft back then!

 

Changes that cost money had to be justified financially.

 

Can the more technically gifted elucidate?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

In the case of the LNER Pacifics, it took a fair bit of convincing by Kings Cross shed that the double chimney cost could be justified, but ultimately it was. 

 

Rob has covered the double chimney admirably, in its simplest sense, increased fire draught for no increase in throttling of the exhaust. Improved economy, but more critically, in the case of the LNER engines, longer between services, and greater tolerance to poor fuels. 

Paul. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Paul_sterling

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Presumably, though, there were benefits in changing to a double blastpipe that outweighed the problems of smoke drifting; they weren't daft back then!

 

Changes that cost money had to be justified financially.

 

6234 Duchess of Abercorn was used as a test loco early in its career, when it was still the newest of the class (February 1939 I think, while it was 6 months old).

It got its double chimney during these tests, the first of its class to be fitted.

Starting with 6235 City of Birmingham in July 1939, every member of the class carried a double chimney from new & it was retro-fitted to all existing class members, all 14 of these being done during the war.

I doubt they would have done this if the benefits were not significant.

 

The last to be doubled was 6220 Coronation in December 1944. I find that ironic considering it was the one which achieved 114mph on its maiden publicity run.

 

[Paul_sterling]

32 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

6234 Duchess of Abercorn was used as a test loco early in its career, when it was still the newest of the class (February 1939 I think, while it was 6 months old).

It got its double chimney during these tests, the first of its class to be fitted.

Starting with 6235 City of Birmingham in July 1939, every member of the class carried a double chimney from new & it was retro-fitted to all existing class members, all 14 of these being done during the war.

I doubt they would have done this if the benefits were not significant.

 

The last to be doubled was 6220 Coronation in December 1944. I find that ironic considering it was the one which achieved 114mph on its maiden publicity run.

 

 

Which is one of the reasons behind my musings about the Duchesses/Princess Coronations could probably have challenged the A4's ultimately. No.s 2509 and 2512 ran around 112/113mph in single chimney form, and 4468 extended that to 126 with a double chimney. A single chimney Princess Coronation achieved 114, so I do wonder what a double chimney streamlined princess coronation would have achieved, especially with a longer, straighter route. Fascinating stuff! 

 

Paul. 

[atom3624]

1" larger diameter drivers as well ......   

 

 

Al.

[Paul_sterling]

1 minute ago, atom3624 said:

1" larger diameter drivers as well ......   

 

 

Al.

 

as i keep suggesting to my wife, an extra inch makes all the difference..........

 

anon!

 

 

[atom3624]

BACK TO TRAINS .... !!

 

Al.

Edited July 30, 2019 by atom3624

[robmcg]

I have no knowledge of the alleged incident.

 

If people enjoy reading about efficiency from steam they could do worse than read about Andre Chapelon...  most of his books, essays, and so on are in French but one in English is excellent, 'Chapelon Genius of French Steam' by Col. H.C.B.Rogers.

 

His compound 4-8-4 of about 1946 (242. A1)could produce a sustained 5,000hp  (not sure if that was 'developed' or drawbar) from a grate little more than half the size of the New York Central S-1a 4-8-4... which is considered by many to be the zenith of steam power, being rated at about the same power as 4 F7s and cheaper...

 

Chapelon planned efficient post-war steam engines including a 4-6-2 or 4-6-4 with 7' 3" drivers, design speed 125mph.   He would have done it but for the SNCF choosing electrification.   Probably the nearest British equivalents were Riddles Standards, which had certain constraints like less-skilled crews...  not that every crew was poor by any means, heaven forfend! 

[robmcg]

I'll just make myself feel a bit better with something thoroughly British!

 

[atom3624]

I'm like most on this forum, a 'choo-choo fanatic' but have always had a preference for Stanier pacifics - I do have 2 'Royals' and I think 7 Coronations / Duchesses (most streamlined) - I think - I'm not home.

 

Having said that, a slight aside, but watching YT videos, I always get the impression that either the Duchess of Sutherland is down on power, or that the Merchant Navy's are at least it's equal, seeming to out-perform it on similar blasts - like up Hemerdon.

 

I understand a lot will relate to load, conditions, track, crew, coal quality, steam generated .... just an impression.

Must admit, MN's are near-equal favourites for me - rebuilt.

 

Al.

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, atom3624 said:

I'm like most on this forum, a 'choo-choo fanatic' but have always had a preference for Stanier pacifics - I do have 2 'Royals' and I think 7 Coronations / Duchesses (most streamlined) - I think - I'm not home.

 

Having said that, a slight aside, but watching YT videos, I always get the impression that either the Duchess of Sutherland is down on power, or that the Merchant Navy's are at least it's equal, seeming to out-perform it on similar blasts - like up Hemerdon.

 

I understand a lot will relate to load, conditions, track, crew, coal quality, steam generated .... just an impression.

Must admit, MN's are near-equal favourites for me - rebuilt.

 

Al.

The Princess Royal Loc Trust which own 6233 are known to discourage mainline crews from using the full power available -  I suppose given that they have to pay the bills thats fair enough! Have a look at clips of the 46229 when she was on the mainline - generally it was operated far more enthusiastically!

[atom3624]

Hi Mike, I have done and that's precisely the impression I've gained.

 

It seems that 6233 as is now, seems to be down on power cf Clan Line for example - looking at videos of Hemerdon Bank for example.

I've seen OLD ones and as you say, power is there.

 

Having ridden on the footplate 45 years ago, I was hoping it wasn't going to be yet another demise!

 

Al.

[robmcg]

Just for fun I made a picture of 46232 Montrose using a a Google image search for a background, finding a nice B+w pic of 6231 Atholl  so with grateful acknowledgements to the latter here are the results;

 

Firstly with the model and some embellishments with editing, and secondly with the driving wheels from the original pic.

 

What amazing work Hornby have done!   Hard to tell the difference!  Will remove if required.

 

 

 

 

Nice rainy day, proper green!

 

of course if you prefer red....

 

 

cheers

Edited August 9, 2019 by robmcg

[G-BOAF]

8 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

of course if you prefer red....

 

 

cheers

 

Which base model did you use for the Maroon pic? Hornby have not done a destreamlined maroon model of the latest Duchess (except for awful glossy Hamilton). Is it the older model?

[robmcg]

7 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

 

Which base model did you use for the Maroon pic? Hornby have not done a destreamlined maroon model of the latest Duchess (except for awful glossy Hamilton). Is it the older model?

 

Yes. Created using photo-editing from 46245 recent tooling 2005 ?  and latest tooling version (can't remember which one) for wheels, plus photos of real engines.

 

Not sure if 46245 had that particular tender c1960.

 

edit; I think 46229 Hamilton in glossy red looks grand.

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by robmcg

[robmcg]

I have bought a lot of Duchesses in my time, I got hauled over the coals in this very forum for showing one which did not exist...

 

 

But the riveted non-streamlined tender on 46245 three posts back I'm not sure about unless I consult my books...

 

Picture is edited, will remove if it offends.

Edited August 11, 2019 by robmcg

[robmcg]

On 10/08/2019 at 01:55, G-BOAF said:

 

Which base model did you use for the Maroon pic? Hornby have not done a destreamlined maroon model of the latest Duchess (except for awful glossy Hamilton). Is it the older model?

 

To my eternal shame I used the tender from 46256 for the pic and as far as I know 46245 had a more common type with higher recess at the front, as well as being fully welded, unlike the one in the pic.

 

Thus the pic of 46245 in rain, on shed, a few messages back, was probably created from 46256 with wheels, trailing truck and so on copied from 6231, and boiler name and numbers from earlier model 46245 . And 'real' front wheels.

 

I should have been more careful with the tender type. 

 

cheers

Edited August 10, 2019 by robmcg

[atom3624]

I don't have a fixed layout at the moment - simply collecting for now with a view to eventually doing something ...

 

Occasionally, given an opportunity, I do that frowned-upon thing of laying a temporary track down in the living room, when the house is quiet for a few days - my 2 lads are away for a couple of weeks, and I've just returned from a company trip, so just had to.

 

I've been running Southern Region restored Merchant Navy locomotives and LMS - had to finally test out the R3677 Duchess of Hamilton - it is superb - smooth, quiet and pretty fast if opened up - rake of 7 'red Coronation' coaches plus a 12-wheeler diner - got to eat haven't you? ... not too heavy, but reasonable.

 

Very free-running coaches, including the diner, so easy pulling for the Duchess.

6233 loco-powered DoS is out as well - nearly as smooth and just as fast - superb.

 

Good fun.

 

Al.

[pH]

On 08/08/2019 at 21:59, robmcg said:

of course if you prefer red....

 

On 09/08/2019 at 06:33, jf2682 said:

Doesn't' everyone?

 

Nope!