Beer Barrels and cask wagons

[bertiedog]

Can anybody recommend a 4mm scale model beer barrel, the net is curiously sparse on this item, I see that Hornby is mentioned, but it is not in their lists. Also needed are bigger wooden casks, wooden whisky barrels and wooden crates with bottles.

 

Are there any horse drawn 4mm Brewers drays in the diecast market place? there are kits, but it would save time.

 

Did the UK ever use the large wooden cask wagons that the French and others used in the wine trade, and in the Belgian beer trade? The period is about 1890 onwards, nothing BR or modern.

 

Also hop pockets are needed, these could be made, but if available will be bought, any ideas please.....

 

Stephen

 

[JRSS]

Casks and barrels are available from ten commandments models, will come up in Google, once you get past all the "thou shall nots"

[teaky]

Knightwing

[phil_sutters]

Check the Gaugemaster lists - there are quite a few different options there. The best value pack seems to be the Preiser 17050 set, but that seems to be generally out of stock and of course it's HO.

As far as wagon kits go, the Cambrian range has a lot of Private Owners. You don't say what period you are modelling. Be cautious about r-t-r brewery wagons. There are a lot of promotional models out there - many from the series commissioned by the Burnham MRC. Quite a few are fictional fund-raising designs. Depending on your period and how deep your pockets are, it might be worth looking at the Lightmoor range of books on Private Owner wagons. I don't know whether they do a book specifically on brewery wagons, but if they do that would show which types of wagons they used.

I have no connection with any of these suppliers.

There is a thread from a few years ago, which may answer some of your queries, although I haven't ploughed my way through it. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66468-brewery-traffic/

 

Edit - you did say!

Edited December 10, 2016 by phil_sutters

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Did the UK ever use the large wooden cask wagons that the French and others used in the wine trade, and in the Belgian beer trade? The period is about 1890 onwards, ...

 I believe the answer is 'non' for your target period. With no wine production in the UK, and an established bottled/cask beer trade from brewery to point of UK consumption or export, there was no opportunity for a bulk tanker. Efforts to promote this concept appear to be post WWII.

 

There was a telegraphic wagon code 'CASK', but this was for 'empty cask' wagons, a high sided cage providing maximum capacity for the low density load. Did such wagons depart the brewery only part filled with full casks, or go out empty? Why not use regular general merchandise opens or vans, which could work a balancing turn, assuming loaded casks out and empty casks in ran near equal, with relatively few losses? Or were these wagons for movement of empty casks alone to such as whisky distilleries which required used sherry casks and the like for the maturation of water of life? (The LNER's CASK wagons were from the NBR.)

[Londontram]

I asked a similar question about barrels a few months back as I was looking for a load for an empty barrel wagon I was building

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115150-where-can-i-get-some-barrels-for-wagon-loads/

 

Barrels were the British standard method for shifting pretty much everything in the 1890s and most Scottish companies had special trucks for bulk moving empty barrels around full ones being carried in open goods wagons or box vans as normal freight.

     Here's a picture of my model of a Caledonian railway empty barrel truck built using a Silhouette cutter to cut out all the parts which are then laminated up into this. The empty barrel wagon is the second vehicle behind the open truck.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Londontram

[crompton 33]

Hi Dart castings have some.  3 type's  hope this helps. Link http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/dartcastings.php#DETAILINGPARTS(OOGAUGE) .

Edited December 10, 2016 by crompton 33

[bertiedog]

I have spent an hour or two on the net and found, I think, suitable barrels from several makers, who seem to delight in hiding from Google searches at first.

 

It is all for a quick display micro plank on a shelf, with a Brewery to justify traffic to shunt with the Hornby Peckett locos, plus a Backmann 1F 060, so........... a Midlands Brewery using the carcass of the Metcalfe Brewery and the Factory gatehouse. To look right a lot of barrels are needed! Also beer crates, which I see Langley do in 00 cast metal.

 

I might make a master or two for the beer crates and  cast some in resin, bit it is a lot of fine work. Does anybody know of any other suppliers of beer crates, or bottle crates? Hop sacks or pockets do not seem listed, but can be sewn up and stuffed to make some as can sacks.

It will need a siding for coal delivery to the boiler house, that's easy to model, but I aslo need a couple of horse drawn Brewers drays, any suggestions?

 

Stephen

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

Did the UK ever use the large wooden cask wagons that the French and others used in the wine trade, and in the Belgian beer trade? The period is about 1890 onwards, nothing BR or modern.

 

Stephen

 

Yes. Mainly in Scotland though. Both the Caledonian and North British had examples.

 

Large wooden casks are still used in the maturing process of whisky. After a few uses they are useless for wine as it discolours the product, but they are perfect for whisky/whiskey.

 

 

 

Jason

[gwrrob]

Hi Dart castings have some.  3 type's  hope this helps. Link http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/dartcastings.php#DETAILINGPARTS(OOGAUGE) .

 

Firkins.

 

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/dart/L60BL.php

 

Pins

 

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/dart/L60BS.php

 

Hogsheads

 

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/dart/L71.php

[bertiedog]

Some of the suppliers seem to have far too few staves in the barrels, boy would they leak! Bachmann do them, but only have a drawing, any body know of a photo to assess them?

[phil_sutters]

Another source of barrels is Skytrex - I have just spotted their advert in BRM. Their wooden barrels come in large 10 for £3.50, medium 10 for £3.00 & small 15 for £3.00.

[grahame]

Can anybody recommend a 4mm scale model barrel, 

 

 

A barrel is a size of cask. It holds 36 gallons and is big and heavy when full. Hogsheads and tuns are larger but more common, certainly today, are kilderkins (18 gallons) and firkins (9 gallons). Casks can be made from wood or, again more common today, aluminium.  Kegs, are more modern and used for pressurised beer, are straight sided, made from metal and come in metric litre sizes.

 

G.

[Fat Controller]

Yes. Mainly in Scotland though. Both the Caledonian and North British had examples.

 

Large wooden casks are still used in the maturing process of whisky. After a few uses they are useless for wine as it discolours the product, but they are perfect for whisky/whiskey.

 

 

 

Jason

The cask wagons that Bertie asks about are the wagon chassis with one or two very large wooden barrels .  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wine_barrel_railway_wagons_of_France#/media/File:Ingrandes_sur_Loire_Transport_de_vin.jpg shows a typical rake of them. Each barrel holds 7000 litres or more of 'pinard'; when these wagons were in daily use, the French army used to give each soldier about 3 litres per day (which is why they borrowed my grand-dad as a lorry-driver in Salonika; they'd lost most of their own). It was commonplace for the 'Work's Committee' at large factories to order a tank or two every few months, with everyone bringing their own containers to collect their quota. These barrels are about 35 times the capacity of a normal wine barrel, and were semi-permanently fixed to the chassis.

The barrels or casks used for ageing whisky tend to be ones previously used in the fortified wine business; variously Madiera, sherry and Port, and may be forty or more years old. The ones used for French wine production tend to be cascaded into domestic spirit production. The price of new barrels is such that they only get used for the more prestigious wines; most French wine is made and stored in concrete or stainless steel.

[Andy Hayter]

Beer crates and bottles

 

I can give a perhaps a half useful answer.

 

Some 25-30 years ago I bought a Busch (I think) pick up truck of a Peugeot 302 0r 303 and this came with a number of crates and a sprue of bottles.

 

Now of course this is HO but I think if you could source one it would pass muster to all except those with laser measuring devices. Of course the model is no longer in the range so it will be a second hand job.

[Steamport Southport]

The cask wagons that Bertie asks about are the wagon chassis with one or two very large wooden barrels .  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wine_barrel_railway_wagons_of_France#/media/File:Ingrandes_sur_Loire_Transport_de_vin.jpg shows a typical rake of them. Each barrel holds 7000 litres or more of 'pinard'; when these wagons were in daily use, the French army used to give each soldier about 3 litres per day (which is why they borrowed my grand-dad as a lorry-driver in Salonika; they'd lost most of their own). It was commonplace for the 'Work's Committee' at large factories to order a tank or two every few months, with everyone bringing their own containers to collect their quota. These barrels are about 35 times the capacity of a normal wine barrel, and were semi-permanently fixed to the chassis.

The barrels or casks used for ageing whisky tend to be ones previously used in the fortified wine business; variously Madiera, sherry and Port, and may be forty or more years old. The ones used for French wine production tend to be cascaded into domestic spirit production. The price of new barrels is such that they only get used for the more prestigious wines; most French wine is made and stored in concrete or stainless steel.

 

Probably a no them. I've not seen anything like those in any wagon books that I possess. Not in wood anyway.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

Beer crates.

 

I saw these the other day. But they're far too modern. Maybe of use to someone though.

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/203378/Oxford_Diecast_76ACC002_Pack_of_four_pallets_with_Manns_Brown_Ale_crate_loads/StockDetail.aspx

 

 

 

Jason

[BlackRat]

Anywhere that supplies model ships.

 

I bought a large pack of assorted sizes, so many I ended up supplying a certain Mr Nevard.

[JZ]

Langley also do various barrels. Usually cheaper to pick them up from their odds bin at shows.

[petethemole]

One aspect of most model wooden casks/barrels I find disappointing is the prominent gaps between the staves. These only become apparent in old, dried-out barrels or in crudely made fake barrels for garden or display purposes. See here http://www.123rf.com/photo_4720458_old-wooden-barrel-cask-for-whisky-or-beer-or-wine.html  Dry-brushing or a dark wash makes this even more noticeable.

[phil_sutters]

Anywhere that supplies model ships.

 

I bought a large pack of assorted sizes, so many I ended up supplying a certain Mr Nevard.

A supplier with a huge range of marine fittings and accessories is http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/  I only know them as a satisfied customer.

[bertiedog]

Thanks for the references, I can go with the Bachmann ones if they areas they look in the drawing, but I suspect a bit courser in real  life, and I will try other makes as well. With modern casks it seems you can get moulded piles of them, but I cannot see wooden types.

It would only need a few open beer crates, the other could be stacked and covered with a tarpaulin, saving actually modelling them.

It is basically to scene dress a Metcalfe brewery, a bit modified to fit a tiny space, so not much to show anyway.

I have found a Brewers day kit from Dart, the other can be a lorry, as long as an early type.

Pity cask wagons were never used in the UK, quite an interesting wagon type!.. mind you I might slip one in!

Stephen

[Grovenor]

See
https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=2819#p25230

Regards

[Fat Controller]

The nearest to a 'wagon bi-foudre' in the UK would have been one of the road-rail trailers or demountable tanks. Guinness used one of the former, on a six-wheel chassis like a milk tanker, whilst the latter were used at various times by Bass, Watneys and McEwans.

I once knew an elderly Frenchman who had escaped from his forced-labour in Germany by finding an empty 'bi-foudre' labelled to be returned empty to Beziers or Sete in his home region, and climbing into it. I can't even contemplate what a horrible journey that must have been.

[Tony Teague]

I don't know of any diecast / RTR / RTP brewers drays but I am just building the Langley Models kit and it is pretty easy (no connection etc):

 

http://www.langleymodels.co.uk

 

Kit ref: G4

 

Tony