West Highland Line V4, a 1980's West Highland Line layout

[franciswilliamwebb]

43 minutes ago, meanach said:

Ooh 9 stanchion Thames water board OTA ! Do you know what year this is please? 

 

From Flickr, dates are: 5th May 1988, 5th May 1988 and 21st April 1986 (top to bottom)

 

Edited January 7 by franciswilliamwebb
PICNIC

[meanach]

4 minutes ago, franciswilliamwebb said:

 

From Flickr, dates are: 5th May 1988, 5th May 1988 and 21st April 1986 (top to bottom)

 

Thankyou so much!  I have searched for years to find photos of Thames OTA on the west highland prior to 1989 and found nothing. Now the 5 boxed Hornby OTA I’ve had sat in a drawer for years will be getting a legitimate re-spray! 

[Daddyman]

24 minutes ago, meanach said:

Thankyou so much!  I have searched for years to find photos of Thames OTA on the west highland prior to 1989 and found nothing.  

There are hundreds out there - you should have asked! 

24 minutes ago, meanach said:

Now the 5 boxed Hornby OTA I’ve had sat in a drawer for years will be getting a legitimate re-spray! 

Well, strictly, the TB ones have a different stanchion pocket spacing/position from the Hornby ones.... 

Edited January 7 by Daddyman
clarification

[young37215]

Interesting pictures and thanks to those for their input. Ernie Bracke's albums are a priceless resource. I think that the trunking to the south of Arrochar identified by 03060 is new, it looks quite clean and was probably installed post RETB when the signal box was decommissioned. Prior to this I fancy the catch point was moved at the same time as when the point giving access to the yard was moved. Post signal box closure I presume a ground frame will have been installed for yard access although I am not aware of its location. Below is a pre RETB photo showing 3 point rods which I am guessing were the actuator and facing point lock for the main point with the third rod controlling the catch point. There is no sign of any trunking in this shot and on the basis this means less work, I will settle for this as my template for the south end of Arrochar.  

 

 

To the north I have also found a picture that shows the trunking is channelled to the side of the down platform. This is good news because it means on WHL4 the trunking cannot be seen from normal viewing angles so nobody will ever know if I actually install any! 

 

 

 

 

[young37215]

 

Whilst away I have been looking at the Arrochar signal box with a view to deciding on the internal fit out for WHL4. I would like to get this as close to reality as I can hence my researching for pictures of the internal layout in the 1980's. The signal box on the south end of the station platform was bog standard WHL design, the 1984 view below shows very little of the usual paraphinalia that would be expected to be seen in a signal box. I have read that that token machines, telephones and other associated equipment were frequently housed in the station building which I assume must have been the case at Arrochar.  

 

 

Mr Llangollen Signal Man has some helpful material covering much of the WHL, his 1984 view of the Arrochar 17 lever Saxby & Farmer frame is a good starting point.  

 

 

The internal signal diagram on the wall above the lever frame has reflections of what might be token machines although these are not visible in other pictures around the same date. More pictures of the internal layout would be helpful.

 

 

Externally there were a couple of unique features namely the adjoining relay box and the chimney. Other pictures indicate that there was no fire in the building on the 1980's, again I am guessing that the fire had been removed some time earlier.

 

 

This 1978 view appears to support my view of a lack of fire, there is no smoke coming from the chimney and if there was no fire on a day like this then I suspect there was no fireplace!

 

 

In summary I have enough information to fit out the signal box although I am not 100% certain on all of the detail. If anyone has any more detailed information I would like to hear from them.

 

 

[Fishplate]

48 minutes ago, young37215 said:

more detailed information

 

Hi @young37215, have you seen this site? :

 

 https://signalbox.org/photo-gallery/north-british-railway/arrochar-tarbet/

[37081LochLong]

I take it Ardlui was different since the station building burnt down and there was always someone in the little box when I was there?

[young37215]

On 12/01/2024 at 15:53, Fishplate said:

 

Hi @young37215, have you seen this site? :

 

 https://signalbox.org/photo-gallery/north-british-railway/arrochar-tarbet/

 

Yes thank you. It is of limited use for the WHL although Arrochar is one of the few signal boxes it covers albeit in relatively superficial detail.  

 

On 12/01/2024 at 18:43, 37081LochLong said:

I take it Ardlui was different since the station building burnt down and there was always someone in the little box when I was there?

 

The 1970 shot pre demolition shows the lever frame to the eastern side of the box. There is nothing else visible indicating that the rest of the equipment must have been in the station building. Again there is a chimney but no evidence of a fireplace which leads me to suspect that electricity had been connected and an electric fire had replaced the coal stove of old.

 

 

The 1977 picture shows how the residual equipment was crammed in and the thunder box added for the signalmans convenience. All were removed after the introduction of RETB and the destaffing of the station. Note the roof has  had the tiles slates removed which appears to have been replaced with felt of some decription.

 

 

No expense was spared to provide passenger comfort on the WHL in the 1980's as the extensive, airline style passenger lounge shows! The token machines can just be made out at the back of the box on the western side.

 

 

The Ardlui box on WHL made by Ed Hall matches the 1984 shot quite nicely although I need to add the thunder box. 

 

 

Edited January 14 by young37215

[Dunalastair]

29 minutes ago, young37215 said:

 

Note the roof has  had the tiles removed which appears to have been replaced with felt of some decription.

 

 

Before the time of your evocative model, but were they tiles? They look much more like typical Scottish slates - quite probably from the Ballachulish quarries. If not Ballachulish then perhaps Aberfoyle, as the NG tramway down the hill connected with the Strathendrick and Aberfoyle / NBR, whereas the lochside pits at Ballachulish connected (by a shorter NG tramway) to the C&OR / CR branch. It might make more sense to use material which generated carriage revenue for your own railway. 

Edited January 13 by Dunalastair

[37081LochLong]

I remember that "waiting room" extremely well, spent many a long wet day hour in there (and the slightly drier but more cramped phone box on the A82 just across the road). Fond happy memories though :)

[young37215]

19 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

 

Before the time of your evocative model, but were they tiles? They look much more like typical Scottish slates - quite probably from the Ballachulish quarries. If not Ballachulish then perhaps Aberfoyle, as the NG tramway down the hill connected with the Strathendrick and Aberfoyle / NBR, whereas the lochside pits at Ballachulish connected (by a shorter NG tramway) to the C&OR / CR branch. It might make more sense to use material which generated carriage revenue for your own railway. 

 

Unquestionably slates, my error. This is what can happen when a southerner models Scottish landscapes!

 

I am considering approaching Modelu to see if they can do a custom order of token machines. I need 8 and only want the machine, not the machine and cabinet which is what Modelu currently offer. I would also like the machine to be a Tyers No 12, at present they only make a Tyers No 8 because my research has identified that the Tyers No 12 was what was used on the WHL. You can see the red machines in a couple of the pictures of the last few days. 

 

Tyers No 12 is subtlely different from the No 8

 

 

 

Crianlarich token machines,

 

 

Tyndrum token machines, 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Modelu Chris]

Good afternoon! Venturing off my usual page. If you drop us an email I'm sure we can sort something. Not having it on the cabinet is fine (Please see picture) but some CAD work would need to be done for your changes. 

 

 

Kind regards,

Chris

[young37215]

36 minutes ago, Modelu Chris said:

Good afternoon! Venturing off my usual page. If you drop us an email I'm sure we can sort something. Not having it on the cabinet is fine (Please see picture) but some CAD work would need to be done for your changes. 

 

 

Kind regards,

Chris

 

What a constructive response which sounds very positive. I will correspond with Modelu and see where it leads. If anyone else is intested in the Tyers 12 it might be an idea to register your interest with Modelu, obviously the more they sell, the more attractive it becomes to produce a new design.

 

My researching the signal boxes has led me to conclude that only 2 of the signal boxes on WHL4, (Ardlui and Crianlarich) had more than lever frames in them. Photgraphic evidence of Arrochar and Garelochead shows this reasonably clearly which simplifies the work I plan for now which will be signal box detailing only. I plan to fit out my station buidings at some stage meaning I will still need 8 token machines. What will be more challenging is finding pictures of the internal layout of the station buildings along the line. I have plans of the internal layout of the standard building but nothing for Crianlarich. Given it has been quite a challenge to find signal box pictures and I do not recall seeing any internal pictures of buildings along the way, I am not optimistic of internal station building pictures being available. Of course if anyone knows or can suggest where I might find anything I would be grateful.

 

The last of my research projects, Garelochead. Another chimney with no obvious signs of an internal fire/stove can be seen as late as 1987.

 

 

Only the lever frame can be seen in this internal shot

 

 

 

 

[37Oban]

Hi,

regarding the chimneys yet lack of stoves in the signal cabins, I wonder if when they were orignally built stoves were fitted but it was soon realised that they weren't really necessary in a cabin that would only be used for a few minutes for each train then not needed for some hours until the next one, the signalman either performing other duties or keeping warm with a brew in a station office?  If that's the case then I would presume the stoves would be removed for use elsewhere.

 

Roja

 

[young37215]

On 15/01/2024 at 22:12, 37Oban said:

Hi,

regarding the chimneys yet lack of stoves in the signal cabins, I wonder if when they were orignally built stoves were fitted but it was soon realised that they weren't really necessary in a cabin that would only be used for a few minutes for each train then not needed for some hours until the next one, the signalman either performing other duties or keeping warm with a brew in a station office?  If that's the case then I would presume the stoves would be removed for use elsewhere.

 

Roja

 

 

I am not sure we will ever know the reasons unless an old WHL employee materialises on RMWeb and can explain. 

 

Modelu have done themselves proud in producing a Tyers 12 token machines in a very short time. My thanks to Chris for his help, I collected several token machines yesterday which will help in my signal box detailing efforts. First for detail was Garelochead which using the Ratio signal box detailing kit of which I had bought 3, I created the 18 lever frame that was found at Garelochead. I painted the levers in different colours and using a picture from Flickr, installed the levers to reflect the actual set up in the signal box. The only other item that I can find in the signal box was a track diagram which I printed out from a picture found on Flickr and stuck this to the window frame in the box. Job done, all of the residual signalling equipment will go in the station building when I get around to detailing it. 1 signal box done, 4 to go.

 

Ratio signal levers painted in their sprue for ease of handling

 

 

Lever frames were painted black

 

 

Track diagram in minature

 

 

Completed internal layout of Garelochead signal box

 

 

 

Edited January 20 by young37215

[meanach]

On 15/01/2024 at 22:12, 37Oban said:

Hi,

regarding the chimneys yet lack of stoves in the signal cabins, I wonder if when they were orignally built stoves were fitted but it was soon realised that they weren't really necessary in a cabin that would only be used for a few minutes for each train then not needed for some hours until the next one, the signalman either performing other duties or keeping warm with a brew in a station office?  If that's the case then I would presume the stoves would be removed for use elsewhere.

 

Roja

 

‘They pretty much all had the fireplaces in place when I started Ian , not sure when they were removed though . Most of the signalmen had electric heaters on though . ‘This is a reply from John Hynd who is a bit of a legend of a driver at the fort. He started late 79. 
 

Fantastic interior work Rob ! 

[young37215]

On 20/01/2024 at 19:05, meanach said:

‘They pretty much all had the fireplaces in place when I started Ian , not sure when they were removed though . Most of the signalmen had electric heaters on though . ‘This is a reply from John Hynd who is a bit of a legend of a driver at the fort. He started late 79. 
 

Fantastic interior work Rob ! 

 

Given that most of the signal boxes only contained lever frames and were uninhabited for most of the day, I cannot see that heating the boxes will have been a major concern. I do'nt recall seeing chimney smoke coming from any of the signal box or station building pictures that I have looked at along the way. My suspicion is that post the end of steam, coal for the fires will have been less easily available hence the introduction of electric heaters in signal boxes and, in all probability, station buildings. I also think more widespread use of electricity for lighting explains some of the cable trunking that appeared in the 70's and 80's.

 

Ever onwards, yesterday I completed Arrochar signal box and made good progress with Ardlui. In the course of working on Ardlui I discovered an error made on the construction of my signal box where there door faces west, not south as it does on the real thing. It is no big deal and I won't be changing anything, it is just a minor irritation which I have been blissfully ignorant of for the last 5 years. It is largely invisible on the layout being on the farside of the usual viewing angle. Of greater concern is a lack of pictures of the inside of Ardlui signal box other than the lever frame. By this I mean the area where the residual signalling equipment was relocated on the demolition of the station building which leaves little option but to make an educated guess as to the make up of the area.

 

 

Completed internal arrangement of Arrochar signal box, 2 down

 

 

Ardlui 15 lever frame takes shape, the 2 end levers were repainted and are currently drying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22 by young37215

[BoD]

Looking good, Rob.

What was the purpose of the wheels?

[37081LochLong]

32 minutes ago, BoD said:

 

What was the purpose of the wheels?

I know in my 35 years of signalling, wheels is boxes served two purposes. First was level crossing gates so we can rule that out lol. Second were connected to semaphore signal cables which expanded and contracted in the heat and cold in extreme weather and went from too stiff to pull to too slack, the wheel was to adjust the tension. I'm guessing this was the case here

[Nick C]

34 minutes ago, 37081LochLong said:

I know in my 35 years of signalling, wheels is boxes served two purposes. First was level crossing gates so we can rule that out lol. Second were connected to semaphore signal cables which expanded and contracted in the heat and cold in extreme weather and went from too stiff to pull to too slack, the wheel was to adjust the tension. I'm guessing this was the case here

In this case (in fact in most cases...) , probably the two distant signals.

[BoD]

Thanks @37081LochLong and @Nick C.

 

I know point rodding has the expansion widgets and often wondered how signal wiring was dealt with.

[Nick C]

23 minutes ago, BoD said:

Thanks @37081LochLong and @Nick C.

 

I know point rodding has the expansion widgets and often wondered how signal wiring was dealt with.

Here's the LSWR equivalent in Alresford box - please excuse the rubbish photo, it's a crop from a larger view.

 

 

The chain and ratchet (handle stowed) in the left circle is for the outer home signal, about 1000yds from the box - so similar to many distants. The vertical bar in the right circle is for a closer signal, and is turned by the handle hanging on the wall behind. The distant in this case is motor worked so has no adjustment. 

[37081LochLong]

The wheelin one of the boxes I worked was a sod when it got really tight. The ratchet was so hard to release and if you weren't looking at what you were doing it would try to rip your fingers off when it spun to unravel, definitely a two handed job, one to hold onto the wheel, the other to lift the rathet then slowly let it unwind

[young37215]

Ardlui lever frame completed and the track diagram installed but the box remains work in progress. I need to complete the residual furniture and equipment for the box which includes 2 token machines. These are so small that painting is real challenge, I will need a smaller brush to do the detail on the machine. A new pair of eyes would also help!

 

 

The Tyers 12 token machine out of the 3D printer looks like something out of Star Wars

 

 

Trimmed and filed with an initial coat of paint on the casing, the pictures do not show how small these are.

 

 

Other furniture comes from the Ratio signal box detailing kit, the desk contains the signalmans train register. 

 

[03060]

Great attention to detail Rob, be thankful that you are not modelling in N gauge ... I don't think that I'll bother troubling Modellu for a potential size reduction of the token machines, reckon I'll get away with a blob of glue !! LoL

 

All very educational for me is this section on the signal boxes, I'd not even picked up on the change of roof covering at Ardlui until you pointed it out.

 

Regards,

Ian.