A database of GWR photo references

[BG John]

 

I have made a holding page for this database project: http://gwr.org.uk/no-photo-database.html

The .xlsx extension isn't available as an option in OpenOffice. It defaults to saving it in .ods format, although you can choose to change it to various versions of Excel.

 

Some advice on the web site about what people who don't have Excel should do (or only have ancient versions of it) would be useful.

[The Stationmaster]

I think there should be an online national database of all railway images; and proposed this for the Millennium.

 

My idea was that anyone would pay a small yearly fee, plus an even smaller image fee (for copyright purposes) in order to access the millions of photographs I predicted would become available, with the pre-2000 publicity.

 

I was told that the Dome would encompass all that.

 

The late Andy Rush was quite heavily involved with a group who were developing a line/location database which would enable any photo or information to be linked to a reference number which would fit its geographical location right down to nearest milepost level.  They were concentrating on GE lines and the East Anglia area and alas I haven't a clue who else was involved but it sounded like an excellent idea for a master reference system (not that I'm suggesting we should go that far of course   ) 

[Miss Prism]

The .xlsx extension isn't available as an option in OpenOffice. It defaults to saving it in .ods format, although you can choose to change it to various versions of Excel.

 

I'm a bit out of my depth. Is .xls ok? (The spreadsheet needs to be as widely readable as possible.)

 

Some advice on the web site about what people who don't have Excel should do (or only have ancient versions of it) would be useful.

 

I think you just volunteered to write me a paragraph...

 

 

[Miss Prism]

Martin - I am aware of Richard Hall's database (and I think I give a link to it somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment, having problems with File Explorer on a foreign Windows 10 machine - XP's Explorer is so much better!), but I think the great virtue of what is being proposed here, if it does have legs and is to succeed, is that it is 'crowd-contributed', for want of a better phrase.

[jonny777]

The link opens ok on my Mac using the 'Numbers' software, but the spreadsheet goes beyond the boundaries of the page structure and is cut off at the beginning of the 'notes' column.

 

Edited, to add that I just tried it on my iphone and although the page comes up, it only goes as far as ISBN, will not scroll and the tabs do not work.

[Miss Prism]

Jonny - my brief acquaintance with Mac Numbers led me quickly to feel it was a rather ancient and limited thing. Is it possible to adjust the column widths (as in normal Excel) in order to read the final column(s)?

[jonny777]

Yes, Numbers is rather naff and is a limited spreadsheet not designed for large database lists, but my thinking was that many folk may only use a smartphone or tablet now, and in the future; and will not automatically have Excel installed.

[Stubby47]

Supplying the data in a plain text file in csv format would allow it to be uploaded quite easily into Excel.

[kevinlms]

Tender type is a good idea, wish I had thought about that earlier...

 

I will go through the 1940s images again and add the detail, at some stage I will re check the rest!  The issue is the more data included the less likely for it to be filled in properly....

At least if you know the loco you want to model its easy to find the photo references and then check the tenders (and inevitably find out it differs to the base model you have purchased...)

I would suggest that instead of ploughing through the books jsut yet, you think seriously about what information you might want to include and its format. Otherwise you will think of some other information the day after and have to go through it all again.

[kevinlms]

I would suggest that instead of ploughing through the books jsut yet, you think seriously about what information you might want to include and its format. Otherwise you will think of some other information the day after and have to go through it all again.

FWIW in my database, I make use of 4 digit codes to assist in grouping similar items together.

 

The first digit is usually a zero. This is preferred as few locomotive numbers start with a 0.

 

For photographs (and similar) I use 07 for the first 2 digits.

 

The 3rd digit depends on the subject matter.

 

1 LOCOMOTIVES 2 WAGONS 3 BUILDINGS & FITTINGS (PASS.) 4 BUILDINGS & FITTINGS (GOODS) 5 COACHES 6 TENDERS 7 BUILDINGS & FITTINGS (LOCOS) 8 BUILDINGS & FITTINGS (SIGNALLING & TRACK) 9 MISC. RLWY STRUCTURES. 0 NON-RAILWAY BUILDINGS ETC

 

The 4th digit covers the railway company/owner.

 

1 GWR & PREGROUP GWR 2 SR & PREGROUP SR 3 LNER & PREGROUP LNER 4 LMS & PREGROUP LMS 5 BRITISH RAILWAYS - STEAM & TRADITIONAL 6 BRITISH RAIL - DIESEL/ELEC.& MODERNISATION 7 GENERAL (RAILWAYS) 8 OTHER RAILWAYS (BRITISH) 9 FOREIGN RAILWAYS 0 UNCLASSIFIED (INCL NON-RAILWAY)

 

 

So for example a photo (or any detailed information) on GWR locomotives have a code of 0711, from the above tables. It means ALL GWR locos will be capable of easily being found on the database, so can be scrolled through or be subject to more refined searches.

Similarly GWR stations, would be 0731. Signal matters, 0781.

Note there is no reason why multiple entries can't be included. Examples could be a locomotive, standing at a platform, with a water crane alongside. So would be 0711, 0731 & 0771.

 

Note the system is easily adaptable for ALL 4 big groups, 2 types of Brit(ish) Rail(ways), 8 includes London Underground & private/privatised/preserved railways, although more digits could be included for the large number of them. Personally, I don't find it necessary, as you can have another field with the name in full if you wish.

 

More examples. 0714 = LMS locomotives, 0723 LNER wagons. 0752 S.R. EMU's, 0788 London Transport track matters.

 

This can be done in Excel, but a relational database has far more powerful searches available & I would recommend that approach at some stage.

 

 

If anyone is interested, I can provide more information & a sample. You need MS Access (2000 onwards IIRC) for this.

 

 

 

Edit - sorry the formatting didn't work for the tables, but I think it ought to be clear enough.

[Clearwater]

Thanks a Kevin. I must admit that my list was based on going through the book and taking what info I found useful and then going back to add the same info to earlier pictures. However, by the end of the second book, id stopped finding new fields to add.

 

I agree a relational database would be a gold standard but whilst most people I know can manage spreadsheets and e excel, few have real ms access skills. If this was a commercial venture, I'd agree with you. I'm aware you can upload excel/csv to access databases but my personal view would be to stick to the ease of use and accessibility of excel

 

David

[BG John]

I'm a bit out of my depth. Is .xls ok? (The spreadsheet needs to be as widely readable as possible.)

 

 

I think you just volunteered to write me a paragraph...

.xls is OK.

 

You may think I just volunteered, but I think you're mistaken . I'm just starting on my second attempt to change from Windows to Linux, and need to concentrate on that at the moment!

[Miss Prism]

File type is now xls

[firebirduk]

Yes, Numbers is rather naff and is a limited spreadsheet not designed for large database lists, but my thinking was that many folk may only use a smartphone or tablet now, and in the future; and will not automatically have Excel installed.

 

Hi Jonny,

 

The latest version of Office for Mac (Nov 2015). Microsoft made it available free to access and edit on the iPad/iPhone. 

 

Mike Spence

[martinT]

I would suggest that instead of ploughing through the books jsut yet, you think seriously about what information you might want to include and its format. Otherwise you will think of some other information the day after and have to go through it all again.

I agree Kevin. The suggestions so far are very loco-oriented. Having gone to so much trouble extracting data from potentially hundreds of books it would be a pity if, for instance, one cannot list all photos of, say, the Barnstaple branch. (A favourite of mine). Yes, I know I could do an individual search for each of the 12 stations & halts, but then there are the 2 major viaducts (both of which go by 2 or 3 names of which I've got to be aware) & there's always the possibility of photos between stations. No doubt others could come up with other requirements.

[Clearwater]

I agree Kevin. The suggestions so far are very loco-oriented. Having gone to so much trouble extracting data from potentially hundreds of books it would be a pity if, for instance, one cannot list all photos of, say, the Barnstaple branch. (A favourite of mine). Yes, I know I could do an individual search for each of the 12 stations & halts, but then there are the 2 major viaducts (both of which go by 2 or 3 names of which I've got to be aware) & there's always the possibility of photos between stations. No doubt others could come up with other requirements.

No matter what fields you pick, you can always make that argument. If only I could do x.... if people were prepared to pay real money, you might get a proper, skilled programmer to produce a fantastic database that could do what you suggest, a field for a branch line, but that would cost £££... the point here, which I support, is to get something that is more helpful than nothing and is "funded" on a volunteer basis. Therefore it has to use a programme most have access to and can understand how to put data in simply and easily. Sure what I produced is not perfect. I did it for my own use but shared it when this thread started as it was pertinent. here the enemy of "good enough" is the best.

 

I know the comments above are well meaning but there is a risk of this thread going the way of the coopercraft threads where all people can do is find negatives about what others are trying to do.

 

David

[martinT]

Martin - I am aware of Richard Hall's database (and I think I give a link to it somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment, having problems with File Explorer on a foreign Windows 10 machine - XP's Explorer is so much better!), but I think the great virtue of what is being proposed here, if it does have legs and is to succeed, is that it is 'crowd-contributed', for want of a better phrase.

Crowd-Contributing is what makes this an exciting project - but I fear that if it becomes really successful then Excel is not the tool to use, there will just be too much data for it to handle comfortably. Unfortunately I know nothing of MS Access as suggested by Kevin, but I guess that CSV files (generated from Excel) could be used as input to Access.

[martinT]

I know the comments above are well meaning but there is a risk of this thread going the way of the coopercraft threads where all people can do is find negatives about what others are trying to do.

David

David - I'm sorry you think I'm being negative, that's definitely not the case, in fact it's a very exciting project & it seems to have captured the enthusiasm of many of us. I regret to say that I think your criticism of me as being 'well meaning' is unneccessarily patronising.  I share Kevin's view that it would be a pity if the efforts of many of us cataloguing potentially thousands of photos in hundreds of books are not fully exploited.

 

You yourself have put in additional fields in the xls file - I'm not sure how you can therefore dismiss my suggestion of a 'Line' field and claim that it 'would cost £££..'

[Miss Prism]

I can put a 'line' column in if desired.

[Stubby47]

Excel allows filtering on multiple options - as there is already a column for Location, a simple filter search will produce all images for a line.

 

Don't over complicate the columns, use the functionality.

[Clearwater]

David - I'm sorry you think I'm being negative, that's definitely not the case, in fact it's a very exciting project & it seems to have captured the enthusiasm of many of us. I regret to say that I think your criticism of me as being 'well meaning' is unnessarily patronising. I share Kevin's view that it would be a pity if the efforts of many of us cataloguing potentially thousands of photos in hundreds of books are not fully exploited.

 

You yourself have put in additional fields in the xls file - I'm not sure how you can therefore dismiss my suggestion of a 'Line' field and claim that it 'would cost £££..'

Martin

 

Great that you're excited by this. My comment about "well meaning" was not intended to be patronising and sorry if you took it that way.

 

I think you misunderstand me. Anyone can add a column to an excel spreadsheet. That's two clicks and you're done. No cost. Dead easy. To build a properly searchable database to allow multiple ways of searching is a huge and costly task. To take your example, yes, you could add "line" as a column. But for some locations, that might be ambiguous - indeed as you comment yourself some locations are known by different names to different people. A properly specified database seeks to avoid such ambiguities and often limits user functionality by limiting your ability on what to put in given fields. A trivial example is filling in an online bank form where you pick your profession from a set of defined choices. That's done to limit data entry error - Junk in Junk Out. E.g. If someone doesn't know that station x is on the Oxford to Cambridge line but thinks it's on the wcml, you create an error and inconsistency. A proper database would prompt the user with the choice and force the inputter towards the correct answer (or flag it for checking etc). Im afraid on the freeform scope of this, I dont think that is possible. Apart from the programming skill, that's part of what you get when you pay for a professional job. There's no reason why under location a user can't type in Station X (Oxford to Cambridge line). Any one of those words would be searchable in excel.

 

To get a professional job, you need a clear specification and to write that is a skill in itself. Here, how do you write the hierarchy of the fields? E.g. Do you divide loco classes into company, wheel arrangement before precise class? On location, station, line, region? Even the latter is fraught as locations changed region particularly in the BR period.

 

The beauty, and problem, with excel is that it is completely free form. Hence the user needs to apply some thought to how they search.

 

The key here to get something to work is, in my view, to keep it as simple as possible. No-one wants to go back over data to add more (albeit that's less of a problem than you'd think) but I think to ask for too much data, the feasibility begins to drop. Suggest the KISS principle is adopted

 

David

[Miss Prism]

Column now titled 'Location (plus line, if desired)'

[Les le Breton]

What a brilliant idea, I'm sure that many RMweb members will find this proposed resource to be a real gem. The database will help lots of modellers and the hosting on the GWR Modelling website is an interesting way to keep GWR information in one place.

Similar databases of other railway companies would be useful also. Are there similar resources like the wonderful GWR Modelling website?

The RMweb is already an amazing resource in its' own right, which has helped me a great deal.

Many members have given me fantastic advice and encouragement with my tentative return to railway modelling in my retirement. Thank you all.

[corneliuslundie]

This is a great idea but I think the essential thing is to keep it simple.

Many years ago I was involved in the HMRS Photocat project. Three of us spent a great deal of time defining locations in South Wales. I still have the file and it is enormous (and was never used in the end). That was intended to ensure that, for example,  photos of a signal box in the country would always be attached to the same location. And also to standardise the names of locations, as they often changed over time. So to formalise locations for all of the GWR alone would be a truly massive job and almost certainly not worth it. An awful lot of work for relatively little benefit.

I have also written numerous indexes for publication.

But there does need to be a protocol about basic things such as how you insert loco classes, wheel arrangement etc or searching becomes laborious. So is it 4-6-0 or 460? Collet goods or 2251 (a problem here as you can't use 22xx and 2251 is also a specific loco).

Not relevant at this stage but I have been trawling sources for relevant photos of Cambrian Railways locos - not just photos in books but also sources of photos and drawings. At the moment it is a text file but it runs to many pages and is not complete. I intend to do the same for other rolling stock but I suspect that the lists will be much shorter. That is probably not true of the GWR proper. I also have an Excel file of private owner wagon photos relevant to South Wales. That has hundreds of entries and is not complete as I still have at least two books to add. This not meant to be boasting, but to point out the magnitude of the task. And there are other such files available on the web.

But it does raise the question of including photos in collections where copies can be purchased. My feeling is not to as it would add greatly to the task and the databases are usually searchable, but it would I think in the preliminary sections be very useful to add a list of such sources. Such lists as the HMRS, RCTS, RCHS, WRRC, other relevant Societies, Lens of Sutton Association, Kidderminster Railway Museum etc.

Incidentally, when doing the Cambrian list it was noticeable that some photos came up repeatedly. There needs to be a way of coping with this in the database.

Jonathan

[Stubby47]

Another point to consider is the same photo appearing in multiple books - not sure how to this could be indicated.