What don't we want to model?

[Bernard Lamb]

Another thread has been derailed entirely as a picture showed a small swastika graffitied on a building. This has been deemed "disgusting" by some.

 

There have also been suggestions that a diorama depicting someone hanging from a bridge is inappropriate.

 

Whilst many of us adorn our buildings or stock with graffiti you very rarely see swear words.

 

What else is a reality which we don't want/like to reflect in miniature?

I don't know about derailed entirely. I do object to your twist by referring to some people thinking it is disgusting. It is disgusting and sick and totally out of order.

I just pointed out that I do not expect things to appear on this forum that would cause me problems if SWMBO walked in the room and saw them.

The vast majority of people who post on here are very civilised and respectful and have a good grasp of what is right and wrong.

I am amazed at the polite and encouraging feed back I get when posting comments and information about Germany and German railways on other parts of the forum. Several people share the odd joke about the DDR, but nobody prior to this incident has ever made a comment aimed at me or my family about the previous era.

Hidden in the forum rules is a reference to the use of swear words and even ** used in their place. I presume that Andy did not think there was a need to actually ban certain tainted symbols as the use of them was beyond what was expected by civilised human beings.

Bernard

[Bernard Lamb]

I find it strange that you rarely see model figures in wheelchairs. And if you look at the model people on layouts there is no ethnic diversity. The Bachman. Figures are all white as well. Just thinking about it my layout is as guilty of this as any other.

Take a look at South Pimlico, I think that is the right name, by Colin of this parish.

Bernard

[jonny777]

Or indeed how much people want to be offended! What could be the ulterior motive beyond amusing/offending people?!

 

This begs the question of why some people find amusing, that which others find offensive?

 

Is it the way the brain is wired, or how they have been brought up?

[wombatofludham]

Slightly off topic but related in a way, when I was involved in the Train Simulator Dublin to Belfast main line add-on, we had to think long and hard about the murals and residual items related to the "troubles" in Belfast.  With the team all being based in England and Wales it was a bit of a conundrum.  I'd read up on the community impact of the murals and how they had become part of the culture of post-"peace process" Belfast, and how it is possible to go on tours of them, but there was a nervousness that if we did include some it might actually depress sales (yes, cultural sensitivity came second to commercial reality) given polarized views still remain.  In the end we wimped out, partly because we felt it best to duck the issue, but mainly because we didn't want to have to spend ages creating unique textures of the kind of murals found in the city - it would have come down to me hand drawing them, scanning them in and adapting them for Train Simulator, and I had my hands full doing the various liveries on the rolling stock, and many of the scenic items. 

 

We did however ask a number of Irish Train-sim enthusiasts for their views from both sides of the border and almost unanimously they said they wouldn't mind as it is part of life and so they wouldn't have taken offence, but in the end it was more of a practical decision to not "decorate" the Belfast end of the route.

 

I must admit when I see exhibition layouts set in the 1930s serving some fictional country town I'm always slightly disappointed when they all look spotlessly clean, the cottages well maintained and everything rosy, comfortable and perfect in "Miss Marpleshire".  From what I recall from my Town Planning degree where we studied rural planning, rural Britain in the 1930s was in the midst of a long agricultural recession, with extensive poverty, neglected farms and general decay, which is why the agricultural intervention boards were created like the Milk Marketing Board, and why the Government at the outbreak of the War had such a job on to bring back large parts of the countryside to productive use.  It's also why you often find isolated Council housing in the countryside even today.  Of course there were some areas which did better than others but it would be nice to see just for once a BLT set in the depressed agricultural scene of the early to mid thirties just to stand out from the chocolate box picture-perfect usual presentations.

[Dagworth]

http://www.hobbylinc.com/preiser-pedestrians-passers-by-wheelchair-5-model-railroad-figures-ho-scale-10469 Wheelchair users are made in model form, I have the older version on the platform at Dagworth though because he is under the canopy he doesn't tend to come up in photos.

I also have the outfall of the train loos represented on the track in places, it only takes a small splodge of white paint. 

 

I have graffiti, I have political graffiti ("coal not dole") that is relevant to the period of the layout.

 

What I don't and won't have is hate speech. Call me a snowflake if you like but hate speech has no place in any society, real or model. If I see it in real life I WILL remove it, I and a few friends went round town removing posters advertising a hate-speech radio station a year or two back.

I will call it out wherever I see it, whether online or offline.

 

Andi

[Dunsignalling]

All modelling tends to be selective, with things we don't like edited out or periods/locations chosen because they don't feature our dislikes. However,  don't think we can fairly object to the modelling of others who don't bowdlerise their work. Warts-and-all modelling isn't for everyone but I admire those with the determination to present the "whole truth", even the unpalatable bits.  

 

I tend to support graffiti if it was present on the prototype structure; it's all part of evoking time and place. For me, "that" swastika (or other accurate graffiti) is acceptable within context where it wouldn't be if it were added gratuitously. I admit that effectively perpetuates the "work" of the original "artist" but all prototypical modelling does that albeit normally by following admirable practitioners whose names we know.

 

OK, most of us model through rose-tinted specs but some are certainly more rose-tinted than others. Working railways were (and are) mucky things even without being defaced by outsiders. If we clean everything up too much, we risk modelling the over-manicured look achieved (unintentionally) by some heritage railways.  

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

I find it strange that you rarely see model figures in wheelchairs. And if you look at the model people on layouts there is no ethnic diversity. The Bachman. Figures are all white as well. Just thinking about it my layout is as guilty of this as any other.

Very good point.

[woodenhead]

The lack of disabled people just proves that modellers who use shock language, symbols or cameos do them for shock value and nothing more.

 

Do we see multi cultural or disability cameos?

[Dunsignalling]

The lack of disabled people just proves that modellers who use shock language, symbols or cameos do them for shock value and nothing more.

 

Do we see multi cultural or disability cameos?

I think context is everything and that includes period and location.

 

A retaining wall inside the railway boundary on an urban 1970s layout would look as daft without graffiti as it would with a bloke in a wheelchair parked in front of it. 

 

The question is; should we censor our portrayal of prototype reality and, if so, how?

 

Which is more sinister, not editing out a swastika painted on a shed door in 1972 or editing out all the non-white people who would have been on a station platform in 2012?

 

John

[woodenhead]

I think it all comes down to motive, you can give the correct impression of 70s grime and decay without any need to use anything contentious

[Dagworth]

I tend to support graffiti if it was present on the prototype structure; it's all part of evoking time and place. For me, "that" swastika (or other accurate graffiti) is acceptable within context where it wouldn't be if it were added gratuitously. I admit that effectively perpetuates the "work" of the original "artist" but all prototypical modelling does that albeit normally by following admirable practitioners whose names we know.

 

Regarding that particular P-Way hut, is it a model of a real hut from a real location on a model of that particular location at a specific period in time? Or is it (like so many of our models) a fictional location?

 

Andi

[Steamport Southport]

The lack of disabled people just proves that modellers who use shock language, symbols or cameos do them for shock value and nothing more.

 

Do we see multi cultural or disability cameos?

 

 

There are plenty of disabled characters and always has been. You just need to look for them.

 

 

The old soldier, the one legged man on crutches, the old man with walking stick, the blind man with collection box or tray, the old man in the bath chair, etc. have been in many figure ranges over the years.

 

Langley have updated their range to include mobility scooters and modern wheelchairs.

 

Preiser and Noch make several disabled characters.

 

 

This page itself has a few disabled characters. Man in Wheelchair, woman with stick, etc.. There's even a homeless woman with trolley to portray another minority.

 

Be careful if you are easily offended as it contains nudes. Be even more careful with the adult scenes.  

 

 

http://www.modelscenerysupplies.co.uk/oo-scale-products/oo-gauge-figures-animals

 

 

This website title looks familiar

 

http://thepurpleprimer.co.uk/wp/

 

 

 

Multi culture? You can buy Orientals by the hundred on eBay.

 

I think you can get Black and Asian people from somewhere. I've definitely seen them.

 

 

 

Jason

[black and decker boy]

I modelled a Glasgow engineers yard set in the early 90s with 'tories out' graffiti.

 

It always generated comment, predominantly people in agreement.

 

My current layout has scale posters of mass meetings and strikes (it's NCB early 70s), it hasn't generated any comment to my knowledge.

[Steamport Southport]

I haven't got a clue what I'm supposed to be getting disgusted at....

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[raymw]

It's a pity that stuff gets misappropriated  Plenty of info wrt the swastika, perhaps this from the bbc http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29644591 the top image is of a us army bi-plane. In my lifetime, the homosexuals stole the word 'gay', which many of us thought was a bit queer.

['CHARD]

I don't think I'm in any position to become a self-appointed arbiter of what's acceptable, realistic or appropriate.  

 

By the same token I take exception to people telling me what I should or shouldn't be offended or morally outraged by*.

 

Fortunately, modelling a secondary main line in barely populated reiver territory in '67-'68 doesn't register on the gauge of gritty workaday reality and turpitude.

 

 

 

 

* - although post 40's content does make me feel awkward

[Coppercap]

I think context is everything and that includes period and location.

 

A retaining wall inside the railway boundary on an urban 1970s layout would look as daft without graffiti as it would with a bloke in a wheelchair parked in front of it. 

 

The question is; should we censor our portrayal of prototype reality and, if so, how?

 

Which is more sinister, not editing out a swastika painted on a shed door in 1972 or editing out all the non-white people who would have been on a station platform in 2012?

 

John

 

Graffiti back in the 1970s was totally different to what it is today though. Back then it tended to be just a slogan or word, or something like 'Chelsea Shed' or 'MUFC' (who?), or indeed a swastika, whereas nowadays it's often a complex multicoloured work covering large areas, or a 'tag'. Also, if you're going to have one, you'd have to have the correct type of 1970s wheelchair, as they've changed a bit over the years!

Someone's bound to notice and point it out: "Those wheelchairs didn't come out until 2005. Why have you got one on your 1972-based layout?"    

[woodenhead]

I'm not disgusted by the use of swearwords, swastikas or models of nakedness on a model railway, I just don't want to see them.

 

The question was asked and I've answered, 

[Fenman]

... In my lifetime, the homosexuals stole the word 'gay', which many of us thought was a bit queer.

 

Was that really necessary?

 

Paul

[Orange Cat]

From memories of childhood in the 1960's the swastika was an almost ubiquitous item of graffiti. To be strictly accurate at least one of the "arms" would need to be drawn facing the wrong way. They invariably were. At the time I think it was still near enough in history to WWII that the swastika was seen simply as an emblem of a recent enemy (and thus "anti-authority by the graffiti painters) rather than having an association with the ideology of the nazis or their modern day counterparts. 

If a swastika is painted as realistic graffiti on a realistically modelled 60s era layout I wouldn't have a problem with it. If they feature prominently on a modern-era layout, and the builder also has them tattooed on his arms/shaven head, I would be rather less sanguine. 

[njee20]

I do object to your twist by referring to some people thinking it is disgusting. It is disgusting and sick and totally out of order.

I just pointed out that I do not expect things to appear on this forum that would cause me problems if SWMBO walked in the room and saw them.

I'm not twisting anything, it was the language used. I think it's absurdly out of proportion to describe a model, mind! I also wonder why on earth it would "cause problems" with your other half. She's fairly unlikely to think you're becoming a Neo-Nazi skinhead on the back of a tiny bit of graffiti on a model.