So exactly what did BR Electric Blue look like?

[Titan]

I the Modern Railways article in 1966 Brian Haresnape did mention that the final Rail Blue was darker than that used on the XP64 set.

 

For my own part I've only got one slide showing a difference in shade between vehicles, with E3151 and a BSO in September 1967.

 

CTT_048(GB) (1280x963).jpg

Photo C E Steele

 

The loco looks a different shade to the coach, but this may be because of road dirt, wear, or the different reflected colours each will pick up from the surroundings with the coach being a curved surface and the loco being slab sided. 

 

I do wonder if you have a point about the XP64 stock colour. The Class 86's are clearly lighter in shade than the later BR blue, yet not really light enough for Electric Blue. The colour for the 86's could well have been specified not long after after the XP64 train was displayed, and if that colour had be used would it not have been referred to as the new BR blue. I can't see any reference to the class 86's being painted in later BR blue in the article, although it does mention the class 310's being delivered in this scheme.

[melmerby]

 I am not aware of light fade with blue cars,  I have owned two, both long-term   15+ years,  red seems to be the least resilient,  changing from gloss to matt pink, or even eroding away to white! 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalocyanine_Blue_BN

It isn't a problem now but AFAIK it was in the 50s-60s

I've had some Blue cars over the years, the earliest in 1966. My current one which I've had for ten years is fine as was the previous one which was 12 years old when I got rid of it (Don't believe in swapping cars too often!) Both are metalflake finish.

 

Keith

[DavidB]

I do wonder if you have a point about the XP64 stock colour. The Class 86's are clearly lighter in shade than the later BR blue, yet not really light enough for Electric Blue. The colour for the 86's could well have been specified not long after after the XP64 train was displayed, and if that colour had be used would it not have been referred to as the new BR blue. I can't see any reference to the class 86's being painted in later BR blue in the article, although it does mention the class 310's being delivered in this scheme.

From Michael Harris's book on Mark 2 coaches:  "The first 64-seater open seconds were completed at Derby Litchurch Lane Works in the late Spring of 1965, the first new carriages to carry the BR corporate identity livery of rail blue and pearl grey, the XP64 set having been out-shopped in 1964 with an experimental livery with slightly different colour tones.  With the Mark 2s, most of which were originally painted using the airless spray method, white Scotchcal tape served both as masking for paint spraying and as lining out between the areas of grey and blue paint.  The airless spray paint process used at the time did not have a varnish coat, and had an unattractive semi-matt finish."

 

Assuming this is correct, the semi-matt finish would explain why the first iterations of rail blue looked lighter than the gloss version we learned to love (well, some of us did) in the 70s and 80s.  If the AL6s were similarly painted to match their new coaching stock, it would also explain why their factory-fresh rail blue paint looked closer to Electric Blue than might be expected.

 

David

[eastglosmog]

Having read through this thread about a livery well within living memory and recorded in abundant colour photographs, I am no longer surprised by the many disagreements that used to take place in the modelling magazines in my youth about the exact shade of Caledonian Blue!

[hayfield]

I spoke with the chap who owns Precision Paints, he has the correct colour in his range (closest is LNER Garter blue (not sky) from memory, but they have the correct shade). Does mail order, his website may still be being rebuilt so phone in the order

[jjb1970]

I'm very cynical about these colour debates as given the fickleness of human memory and inconsistencies in colour reproduction in photographic film I'm not sure anybody is in a position to definitively say whether a colour is right or wrong. And that is before considering variation in original paints, fading and the question of scaling of colour.

[hayfield]

I'm very cynical about these colour debates as given the fickleness of human memory and inconsistencies in colour reproduction in photographic film I'm not sure anybody is in a position to definitively say whether a colour is right or wrong. And that is before considering variation in original paints, fading and the question of scaling of colour.

 

 

You are very correct about the way most of us see colours, especially if relying on memory. I am certain I have read about  shades differing from one loco works to another as they either made up or altered the tint of their colours

 

I have also read that Precision paints have had access to the colour shades or in some instances been given flakes of paint to reproduce. Check with Precision on where they got their info from, I have always found them very helpful, and they do supply paint to the preservation boys 

[Pandora]

I'm very cynical about these colour debates as given the fickleness of human memory and inconsistencies in colour reproduction in photographic film I'm not sure anybody is in a position to definitively say whether a colour is right or wrong. And that is before considering variation in original paints, fading and the question of scaling of colour.

Agreed, colour perception and recollection is a thorny topic indeed!  The matter for myself is to clarify , using photographic and other evidence, as to the vexing topic of the blue  paintwork of the  AL6 class of locomotives E3100 built at Doncaster and by EE/Vulcan.

 

Some authorities maintain 100% of the fleet were delivered in Rail Blue,  others claim the fleet was of  mixed  livery,  some examples in electric or neo-electric blue and others in rail blue.  The AC loco group, probably the real experts are uncertain of the historical facts.

 

Roll on the debate until this one is settled!

[45125]

Having painted full size vehicles with various "rail blue" from different manufactures and specs. It varies greatly and also alters with the base coat. The later blue has a green tint to it, the earlier forms of "rail blue" had a more blue hue. The spec 68 paint had a flatter finish than later ones which was a semi matt finish.

 

As to the "electric blue " 86s I suspect the strange blue may due to the base coat. Doncaster may have used a grey base and Vulcan red.  Crewe and Doncaster painted locos always had  a difference in rail blue due to different base colour when fresh from works, Doncaster locos being lighter.

 

Al Taylor

[roythebus]

Get one of the Trix AL1 locos, they were painted electric blue. From memory, the AL6 were delivered in rail blue.

[E3109]

There were no AL6s delivered in Electric Blue, ever. They were all Rail Blue from the start. I will stake my pension on it.

That's apart from the pair that were painted this shade many years later due to railway authors posting nonsense.

 

The vast majority of the locos had blue buffer beams from new too.

Only the first handful from EE/Donny Works had red buffer beams, and it's almost certain that these were the same engines that were delivered without a yellow panel.

[E3109]

The Doncaster built locos had blue buffer beams, the EE Vulcan works built locos had red buffer beams.

 

Not so Bernard, see my above post.

I took paint samples a bit back from most of FL's locos comprising examples from all three batches E3101-40, E3161-200 and E3141-60. All were Rail Blue (or an early form of it) and, for example, the former E3102-3-4 did indeed have red buffer beams but most of the rest didn't.

I know it's only paint, but I'm fed up of seeing the Electric Blue AL6 myth repeated time and time again.

 

Maybe I need to collect samples again, as I think I slung those I took 3 years ago...

 

I can see why people have assumed this (white cabs, white roofs, lion and wheel, then our minds fill the rest in towards what we expect).

 

Should be taking delivery of certain bits of a former AL6 in the coming weeks. In fact, chances are I'll be gas-axing the remains off myself.

I'm more than happy to devalue those bits by removing paintwork to the bone, if it means I get to put this nonsense to bed once and for all...

[russ p]

Doesn't help having that preserved one in electric blue

[Zomboid]

That's apart from the pair that were painted this shade many years later due to railway authors posting nonsense.

Whether it's historically correct or not, electric blue was a fantastic colour scheme, so in my opinion the painting of AL6s into the scheme should be encouraged

[PenrithBeacon]

I have documents photographed at TNA where the colour for electric locomotives is described as 'Garter Blue'. Later the same locomotives apparently still painted the same shade 'Garter Blue' is referred to as 'Electric Blue'. I wonder just how similar the two are, but then then the author of the document (Riddles) might just be wrong.

[Zomboid]

Whether it's historically correct or not, electric blue was a fantastic colour scheme, so in my opinion the painting of AL6s into the scheme should be encouraged

In fact I wonder what 87/88/89/90/91/92s would look like in it too. I think it would suit 90s the best...

[E3109]

TBH I think 86259 looks ace  in its current garb, and the loco  is clearly well  looked after if going off the paint job at least.

It's definitely darker than Electric Blue though.  Maybe a mix of the two shades.  Seems to have a slight green tinge, as per Rail  Blue.

[Dava]

I think it's great that Freightliner are continuing to operate their fleet of 50+ year old 86's, whatever their livery [green/yellow] and that we get updates from E3109.

 

I grew up with the AL1-6's in the Macclesfield/Stoke/Manchester/Crewe/Euston area when they were newish, the fastest regular services on rails, and quite exciting. They made the case for 25kv rail electrification.

 

Dava

[E3109]

I can't say too much Dava, but I'm pretty certain they will be around for a few years yet and will certainly outlast me!

 

Fantastic engines, and no doubt one of BR's better purchases (once the track-hammering was sorted out!).

[BernardTPM]

Not so Bernard, see my above post.

I took paint samples a bit back from most of FL's locos comprising examples from all three batches E3101-40, E3161-200 and E3141-60. All were Rail Blue (or an early form of it) and, for example, the former E3102-3-4 did indeed have red buffer beams but most of the rest didn't.

I know it's only paint, but I'm fed up of seeing the Electric Blue AL6 myth repeated time and time again.

 

I can see why people have assumed this (white cabs, white roofs, lion and wheel, then our minds fill the rest in towards what we expect).

My fault for making an assumption based on too smaller sample of numbers, but I do agree the colour was Rail Blue. Interestingly Lima's N Gauge AL6 model in it's early days was painted Electric Blue but later version, towards the end of the run, were Rail blue but still all the same 'old style' markings. It looked much better for it!

[rodent279]

Slightly OT, but a PKP Eu-06 was painted electric blue, complete with lion & when crests, some years ago. Can't remember which one, or whether it's still painted as such, but quite nice it looked too. It would be nice to see one of these preserved over here once PKP finish with them.

[rodent279]

I have documents photographed at TNA where the colour for electric locomotives is described as 'Garter Blue'. Later the same locomotives apparently still painted the same shade 'Garter Blue' is referred to as 'Electric Blue'. I wonder just how similar the two are, but then then the author of the document (Riddles) might just be wrong.

I have to say, there are similarities between the two. Raised aluminium/stainless steel numbers too. Has anyone seen a photo of 4498 or Mallard next to an AC electric in electric blue?

[Dodgydruid]

I am torn whether to go with electric blue, garter blue or refresh the previous owner painted lighter green on my 86, the previous owner done a superb job of detailing the roof, high voltage lines, the undercarriage and bogies but seemed to have painted over what was a blue with a clearish green which I also suspect was exposed to the sun giving it a bit of a bleach too.

 

Its got the old BR lion moulded decal and loco numbers on it so guessing this was like that Bob Ross or whatever his name was loco from factory and someone tried to BR green it, looks abs gorgeous despite the bluey bits peeping through the green and this 86 has become the queen of my collection.   Its weird too it arrived in a later Hornby Pheonix box with cover slip showing a BR corporate blue standard 86, I paid very little for the old girl so am not complaining and half an hour with a light key and a bit of painting will make her shine.

 

But what colour...?

[Michael Edge]

The blue on the AC electrics faded very quickly to a very light shade, it didn't seem so noticeable on the EM2s though.

[daveyb]

Were the EM2s painted with the same paint? There are accounts of Longsight mixing their own from Nanking Blue, Deep Bronze Green and whatever they had to make the EM2 'electric blue'. That might account for it's longevity. Applying it with a brush and coating it with a varnish would change its colour, too.