Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway

[Dava]

The NRM has to be careful to whom it lends exhibits, and in this context the gifting of 563 to the Swanage Railway is an odd decision if they're concerned about its future wellbeing [which, having seen all the statements, I don't believe they are].

 

Locos have been recalled from loan in the recent past, such as the J52 from the East Somerset Railway after they ran it into the ground, failed to overhaul it and replace the wheel tyres as agreed, then asked for another RTR loco from the great museum in the sky. The ESR have not had a loan since, quite rightly. The Midland Railway at Butterley had the 4F repossessed after its overhaul stalled, they felt unfairly. They were lucky to keep the Kirtley 2-4-0 158a, the condition of which has deteriorated in a deteriorating Centre. There have been others.

 

Preservationists have to act responsibly in long term stewardship of NRM exhibits. The GCR are long term stewards of 777 and 70013 [both out of boiler tickets in the next year] and the GCR 8K 2-8-0. It will be interesting to see the terms on which these locos are lent to to the GCR and future GCR Museum at Leicester North, hopefully with 'Butler Henderson' and 'Green Arrow' though David Ward is objecting to this for some reason. But he is a supporter of Bressingham garden gentre/railway museum which enjoys long term loans of locos with Eastern England [including GN Atlantic] connections.

 

Dava

[stewartingram]

The NRM has to be careful to whom it lends exhibits, and in this context the gifting of 563 to the Swanage Railway is an odd decision if they're concerned about its future wellbeing [which, having seen all the statements, I don't believe they are].

 

Locos have been recalled from loan in the recent past, such as the J52 from the East Somerset Railway after they ran it into the ground, failed to overhaul it and replace the wheel tyres as agreed, then asked for another RTR loco from the great museum in the sky. The ESR have not had a loan since, quite rightly. The Midland Railway at Butterley had the 4F repossessed after its overhaul stalled, they felt unfairly. They were lucky to keep the Kirtley 2-4-0 158a, the condition of which has deteriorated in a deteriorating Centre. There have been others.

 

Preservationists have to act responsibly in long term stewardship of NRM exhibits. The GCR are long term stewards of 777 and 70013 [both out of boiler tickets in the next year] and the GCR 8K 2-8-0. It will be interesting to see the terms on which these locos are lent to to the GCR and future GCR Museum at Leicester North, hopefully with 'Butler Henderson' and 'Green Arrow' though David Ward is objecting to this for some reason. But he is a supporter of Bressingham garden gentre/railway museum which enjoys long term loans of locos with Eastern England [including GN Atlantic] connections.

 

Dava

 

Don't forget the saga of 70013 and Bressingham. The latter wouldn't release it for quite a long while, claiming I believe that it was on "permanent loan" to them.

 

Stewart

[bike2steam]

 though David Ward is objecting to this for some reason. But he is a supporter of Bressingham garden gentre/railway museum which enjoys long term loans of locos with Eastern England [including GN Atlantic] connections.

 

Dava

Mmm, now relying on an old memory, wasn't it a ' Ward' high up in BR Norwich area who was a friend of Alan Bloom who helped to get 70013 to Bressingham at the end of steam on BR ?? It's good to have friends in right places.

[TT3]

 

Last time I was there, they were doing CADs for a 4-4-0? based solely off pictures as a new build.

Very talented guys there at Strasbourg, with commercial ability to make things happen much faster.

 

Great railroad the Strasbourg, but can they make the eyes move?

[Robin Brasher]

Back to topic I have heard that the Swanage Railway have issued a press release saying that the T3 will be on display for the summer and then future plans will be assessed.

 

I have not seen this press release anywhere. It is not on their website or in the latest issue of the Swanage Railway Magazine. No-one has mentioned it here either.

 

Perhaps we should reserve judgement until the end of summer on Thursday 21 September when all should be revealed.

[bike2steam]

Thanks Robin, similar(ish) to what I said in post #159

[Robin Brasher]

The future of the T3 looks secure according to Issue 29 of 'Swanning Around'. The T3 will remain on display until after the gala in October.  Then it will be placed under cover away from the Railway.

 

Meanwhile an assessment will be made to see if it can be restored to running order.

[eastglosmog]

...................

so after 413 posts of hysteria, and riotous suggestions of the need for vigilantism to protect it, you mean Swanage railway aren't going to strip it for bits, sell it on ebay and dump the rest on the beach after all ?

...................

Come off it! That's a bit OTT - only 200 of the 413 posts at most!

[dibber25]

What !!!

 

so after 413 posts of hysteria, and riotous suggestions of the need for vigilantism to protect it, you mean Swanage railway aren't going to strip it for bits, sell it on ebay and dump the rest on the beach after all ?

 

I've missed serious modelling time for this, including sharpening my jewellers screw drivers and testing how I can use my track cleaning rubber as a weapon, seeing if an R186 Signal box could be used as a wheel chock to prevent its movement, pondering swapping the T3 for a Dapol Sprinter to see if anyone would notice, even going as far as buying a Triang L1 to offer up as a replacement.

 

So I won't need 500watt speakers playing a Duchess DCC sound pointing at the booking office now.

 

Tsshhh.. so it looks like Swanage do care about it after all.

 

What a surprise...

 

He says with a sly hint of sarcasm. (No Triang L1's were hurt whilst making this post, but the Dapol sprinter seemed to have had a oo gauge piano dropped on it).

You have a spectacular knack of missing the point. Whilst I don't begrudge Swanage having 563, I do think they were unwise to accept it. I've been to see for myself and I'm alarmed at the condition it is in as received from the NRM. I'll wait to see what the railway does in order to cover it for the winter but it has clearly suffered damage from being sheeted over after its stint at King's Cross. It will need something better than tarpaulins or a poly tunnel. It has deteriorated considerably since I last saw it making its stage appearances. It is not 'displayed' at Corfe but only just fits in a siding squeezed between box vans, up against a platform on one side and with no access at all to its left side. The weather had been dry at least 24 hours when I was there, but there was standing water on the tender top (which is bare metal). Some of its earnings should certainly have been spent on a repaint before disposal. It is unfair to have lumbered the Swanage Railway with that cost on top of the cost of creating suitable accommodation for it. (CJL)

[Dava]

Im surprised that adb968008 is not suggesting taking the Adams 4-4-2T 488 from the Bluebell and combining it with 563 to make one good loco from the best bits of both, except you'd struggle to find a repairable boiler

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/adams_tank.html

 

Dava

[EddieB]

The future of the T3 looks secure according to Issue 29 of 'Swanning Around'. The T3 will remain on display until after the gala in October.  Then it will be placed under cover away from the Railway.

 

Meanwhile an assessment will be made to see if it can be restored to running order.

Perhaps reading too much into that statement, but to me it implies the loco will be put in store, away from public view (as it won't be on "public view") for an undisclosed length of time. "Cover" could be anything from a shed to getting that Bulgarian artist to wrap it in cling film!

[brack]

I think the point people were making wasn't that swanage were planning on scrapping it, more that historical public assets in our national collection should not be removed from it or given away to private groups, or dumped outside unprotected for 6 months either.

[dibber25]

I suggested that Swanage should have declined it (post 416). I don't resent the Swanage Railway. I'm a big fan of it. It does a great job serving its primary purpose, which is as a working railway, not a museum. As I said, I think they were unwise to accept the T3. It needs a lot of urgent work. The Swanage Railway has other priorities. It is a sizeable working railway whose primary function is to carry holidaymakers to and from Corfe Castle and Swanage. I watched it doing that very efficiently (2 of the 3 trains were diesel-hauled) the other day. The same day that 563 was 'displayed' squeezed in a siding with visitors climbing on it, no Swanage staff in attendance to stop them, no placard to say what it is or why it is there, in the dismal state in which the NRM handed it over, with rust, exposed woodwork and standing water on the tender top. If we follow the logic of rolling disposals so that newer items can be accommodated, then logically you dispose of Rocket (first-in, first-out) and you work your way through Mallard and Evening Star until you've a collection, not of historic railway equipment, but a shed full of fairly recent items. That isn't a museum. (CJL)

[brack]

Essentially claiming that anyone whose flogged a smokey joe on ebay is a hypocrite for suggesting the nrm ought to conserve a unique 125yr old loco makes you look a little silly I'm afraid, unless it's a deliberate attempt to troll?

[37038]

Where was all this uproar when the 502 EMU was deaccassioned? The NRM ended up giving it to a group who left it outside at Tebay for a couple of years.

 

Is it because it's not a steam engine?....

[adb968008]

Whoa !

 

This is getting a little personal and insulting, with nothing to do with the T3.

Thanks but no thanks, at this point I'm taking my ball away.

 

I'll leave you to it in this thread from this point, but I'm still not prepared to criticise the NRM for this disposal, even if I'm swimming upstream but draw the line at taking rocks too.

[Dunsignalling]

The logic of moving the loco to covered accommodation elsewhere is that it will be better protected than it can be anywhere on the Swanage Railway. That's a good thing to my mind.

 

The Swanage Railway is (as Dibber25 points out) essentially an operational tourist line whose short/medium term priorities cannot include building a museum to house/display large static exhibits.

 

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the NRM disposing of the loco, it has passed to a new owner with specific needs and relatively limited facilities but not inconsiderable capabilities. Their logical aim, in the fullness of time, must be a full restoration of 563 to working order. That's also a good thing to my mind.

 

If the NRM considered that 563's only legitimate future was to be "stuffed and mounted", Swanage was clearly not the place to send it. Usefulness will provide her best chance of being well cared-for in the long term.  

 

 

John

Edited August 27, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[bike2steam]

 

I'll leave you to it in this thread from this point, but I'm still not prepared to criticise the NRM for this disposal, even if I'm swimming upstream but draw the line at taking rocks too.

Wise decision, now all the 'experts*' have made their deliberations, and assumptions perhaps it's time to dump this thread.

It's amusing to read some posts, but let's leave criticism to after the decision by Swan-Rail on the T3's future, with the shortage of personnel at Swanage don't expect it in a hurry, not during the summer season. But it may be another occasion for a certain railway magazine (?) to get it's teeth into Swan-Rail again like it did in the late 1980's.

* An 'ex' is a has been, a '(s)pert' is a drip under pressure.

[dibber25]

Wise decision, now all the 'experts*' have made their deliberations, and assumptions perhaps it's time to dump this thread.

It's amusing to read some posts, but let's leave criticism to after the decision by Swan-Rail on the T3's future, with the shortage of personnel at Swanage don't expect it in a hurry, not during the summer season. But it may be another occasion for a certain railway magazine (?) to get it's teeth into Swan-Rail again like it did in the late 1980's.

* An 'ex' is a has been, a '(s)pert' is a drip under pressure.

 

I'm not sure who this is intended to insult or quite why the writer feels it necessary but I'm off, too. For the most part, this was a sensible discussion by people who happen to disagree about the relative importance of a particular item, how it was disposed of, and how or indeed, if, it should be cared for in the future. Critical comment should be part of what RMweb is about but unfortunately, it isn't. (CJL)

[papagolfjuliet]

 

* An 'ex' is a has been, a '(s)pert' is a drip under pressure.

 

The thing about Blaster Bates, who coined that phrase, is that he was an expert in his field and was making a joke about himself. If you didn't know how to use it, you shouldn't have brung it.

[Sir Hadyn]

Chris, I think you and I should have a proper talk about managing the NRM collection and how 563 came to be in her current condition, long before she went to Swanage. Stage lighting and effects at Kings Cross covered a multitude. I expect at the very least she may well get a repaint this winter.

[dibber25]

Chris, I think you and I should have a proper talk about managing the NRM collection and how 563 came to be in her current condition, long before she went to Swanage. Stage lighting and effects at Kings Cross covered a multitude. I expect at the very least she may well get a repaint this winter.

 

See my post 397. I've never suggested that she got in that condition in the six weeks she's been at Corfe. Far from it. She wasn't even in that condition when I saw her at King's Cross a couple of years ago. I suspect that storage since the stage shows ended will have hastened the decline, though probably being baked day after day in the 90+ degrees heat on the John Street turntable won't have helped her paintwork.

Anyway, I've said I won't make further comment on here. I'm led to believe that 563 might be going to covered storage and that will be good news. Next year marks 70 years since my friend and mentor 'Uncle Mac' had 563 rescued from the scrap line at Kimbridge Junction. She has a special place in my affections. If she gets a repaint in the meantime, it'll be no more than she deserves. (CJL)

[steve45]

Being an eternal optimist I don't see any reason to worry, the future of the locomotive is obvious and wrecks in far worse condition have been restored from Barry scrapyard, so we should all support the Swanage Railway in any efforts they make to bring it back from the neglected state that has occurred whilst being in the national collection

[Robin Brasher]

I attended the Swanage Railway AGM yesterday and it looks as if the T3 is going to be moved to the transhipment shed at Furzebrook with a tarpaulin to protect the engine as well. All the Swanage locomotives and rolling stock are in desperate need of covered accommodation and I think the long term plan is to provide this at Furzebrook sidings. 

 

Meanwhile many of the members put the case very strongly to complete the carriage shed at Herston. Purbeck District Council did grant planning permission and work was started.

 

The Swanage Railway still wants to restore the T3 to working order if possible.

[Paul.Uni]

 

BREAKING NEWS!

LSWR Adams T3 no.563 will move to the Flour Mill workshop in mid November!

The team at the Flour Mill, along with Swanage Railway engineering representatives will disassemble no.563 for a through examination with the view of returning the locomotive to steam.

This is being made possible by a generous benefactor who has agreed to fund its strip down and assessment by the prestigious workshop who have a proven track record in overhauling victorian steam locomotives.

No.563 was last steamed over 71 years ago and the extensive assessment will show us just how much has changed on no.563 over the years, exactly what condition its in and how much it is likely to cost to overhaul.

The Swanage Railway Trust feels that no.563 can tell its story most effectively by actually hauling trains on a railway it was built to run on over 123 years ago.

It is our aim for LSWR T3 to steam again, but that will only be possible with some serious finance and hard work from the staff at the Flour Mill and our own staff and volunteers.

No.563 is one of our most prized assets and we are committed to its ongoing care and conservation, we hope that this will result in its return to steam.

Whilst in 2018 we are stripping it down with a view to a return to steam, this will depend on its condition. If you are able to donate now, the decision to press ahead with a return to steam will be easier to make!

Should the engine throw us any unexpected surprises that would rule out a return to steam, the locomotive will be reassembled and returned to show room condition. Any appeal money would then be used to fund its ongoing conservation.

However on initial inspection, 563 looks eminently restorable so that will remain our aim.

You can help us by donating to the T3 fund, by sending a sending cheque made payable to

‘Swanage Railway Trust’

and it send to..

T3 Fund, Swanage Railway Trust

Station House

Swanage

Dorset

BH19 1HB

If you are able to gift aid it, the form is available on the Swanage Railway Trust appeals webpage. The form is available in a link marked single donation forms under the Appeals banner.

https://www.swanagerailwaytrust.org/giving

Paypal donations will be accepted shortly.

If you wish to discuss 563 and a potential donation please contact SRT trustee responsible for 563, Matt McManus by email on matt.mcmanus@swanagerailway.co.uk.

From https://www.facebook.com/swanagerailway/posts/1440091986039361