Ownership of LSWR T3 no. 563 transfered to Swanage Railway

[PhilH]

I haven't trawled through this thread so might have missed it, but I'm curious as to the recipient selection process for these gifts. Do other railways get a chance to 'bid' as it were or is it a done deal from the off?

[DLPG]

You'll be putting your hand in your pocket then.

 

I prefer to support the Wareham service.

 

No, if was based on my local railway yes.

[brack]

I haven't trawled through this thread so might have missed it, but I'm curious as to the recipient selection process for these gifts. Do other railways get a chance to 'bid' as it were or is it a done deal from the off?

Well it would seem that having secure dry undercover storage, a coherent plan or sufficient priority funding to do anything with said loco in the next 5 years are not factors which are part of the selection process.

 

The idea that we might have preserved too many attractive pregrouping 440 for the nation is not a new one, the notion appears to have been popular in 1967 scotland too.

[dibber25]

I haven't trawled through this thread so might have missed it, but I'm curious as to the recipient selection process for these gifts. Do other railways get a chance to 'bid' as it were or is it a done deal from the off?

Steam Railway magazine went into this in some detail. There is a set method for the disposal of items and the Science Museum Group is signed up to that procedure. Part of the procedure is that the proposed disposal is made public through notification to appropriate media sources. Yes, so that other interested parties can 'bid' as you put it. The process is supposed to be open and accountable. There should also be due diligence exercised. In the case of 563 it seems the proper procedure was not followed in a number of major respects and this lovely old engine - which must through its 'stage' appearances have earned a fair few bob for the NRM - now faces storage under a tarpaulin in a cattle dock. 

[NHY 581]

In the case of 563 it seems the proper procedure was not followed in a number of major respects and this lovely old engine - which must through its 'stage' appearances have earned a fair few bob for the NRM - now faces storage under a tarpaulin in a cattle dock.

 

 

Should that prove to be the case, that is nothing short of a travesty.

 

 

Rob

[Legend]

Steam Railway magazine went into this in some detail. There is a set method for the disposal of items and the Science Museum Group is signed up to that procedure. Part of the procedure is that the proposed disposal is made public through notification to appropriate media sources. Yes, so that other interested parties can 'bid' as you put it. The process is supposed to be open and accountable. There should also be due diligence exercised. In the case of 563 it seems the proper procedure was not followed in a number of major respects and this lovely old engine - which must through its 'stage' appearances have earned a fair few bob for the NRM - now faces storage under a tarpaulin in a cattle dock.

 

So who didn't follow procedure? I hope they are suitably censured. It does seem strange that only one item of rolling stock is discarded. You would have thought there would be space for it to be displayed under cover somewhere. A loco that's been preserved and maintained for years surely deserves better care than this? Very odd

[Sir Hadyn]

The full story - and proper procedure - outlined here:

 

https://blog.nrm.org.uk/managing-national-collection-gifting-t3/

Edited August 2, 2017 by Sir Hadyn

[Dava]

I saw and commented on the blog [1st response] which was a post-hoc justification. I don't think the NRM will try to pull this stunt again without a much more transparent process because they now know they are under public scrutiny. I certainly hope that they have taken note and learnt from the responses.

 

There is a real issue about items in the National collection which are unrestored or have deteriorated and are not on display. The Midland Railway rail motor/inspection saloon is an example. They are unlikely to be restored and don't fit within the 'Masterplan'. Many are not rolling stock. They could be vulnerable. The shocking example of the 'National Maritime Museum' scrapping the unique Paddle Tug 'Reliant' to replace it with nothing is a salutary example of why we have to be vigilant over the decisions made by public and private museums which involve trade-offs between curation, conservation, education and income generation. And I do admire and support the NRM most of the time.

 

Dava

[bike2steam]

Personaly I feel it's redress for Swanage Railway because of the shamefull behavior, and decisions over the possible overhaul of the T9 at Swanage after it ran out of 'ticket' in 1993.

[4630]

Personaly I feel it's redress for Swanage Railway because of the shamefull behavior, and decisions over the possible overhaul of the T9 at Swanage after it ran out of 'ticket' in 1993.

What's the story with this one?

[bike2steam]

It was a time when the T9 needed a major overhaul, and the NRM made it known amongst the heritage railways but no one apart from Swanage was interested at the time. But having been at Swanage a couple of years it was obvious, in good working order, it was ideal for their use, so the job was costed, but to make such a big job pay it would be needed to stay for the full ten years, but the NRM said no ( as if they had a choice at the time !!) Swanage could only have it for 7 which included the time it took to overhaul. I was on the railway's council of management at that time, and we all thought it a bit mean, so the regretful decision was taken to refuse their somewhat poor offer, and let them take it away, into store elsewhere.

[4630]

Thanks Paul.

 

So effectively the NRM traded the cost of an overhauled locomotive that people could see and enjoy, against the ongoing cost of continued storage and no meaningful use.

 

I can understand why the Swanage Railway decided as they did at the time.

Edited August 3, 2017 by 4630

[Robin Brasher]

 

The Swanage Railway seems to be an ideal location for the LSWR T3 as that class of locomotive ran on the Swanage Railway in LSWR days.

 

According to the reports of the Chairman of the Swanage Railway Trust and the Secretary of the Swanage Railway Trust on page 5 of the Summer 2017 issue of the Swanage Railway Magazine it looks like the Swanage Railway intends to put a basic shelter over the T3, to develop a plan to conserve and present it and ultimately to return it to traffic.

 

I agree that the National Railway Museum has not treated the Swanage Railway well over the T9 and I was sorry to see it leave in the 1990s in Southern olive green livery. The T9 is now back on the Swanage Railway although not yet in steam. It would be good to see both the T9 and the T3 running on the Swanage Railway together again.

[woodenhead]

Does this locomotive's lack of BR running preclude a model of it, could help towards restoration though in reality how many units would sell and how much that would actually raise is another thing.

[locoholic]

I wonder if there are grounds for legal action against the NRM, as the proper precedure was not followed? It might discourage them from repeating their mistake, and might even get the loco back into the National Collection.

 

By the sound of it the Swanage Railway are going to build a polytunnel or something similar over the loco to keep the worst of the winter weather off it. I'm afraid that it simply inadequate, and they do not deserve to be given the loco.

[Legend]

I don't doubt the Swanage railway have good intent, but this loco should have gone to a railway that could house it.

[Keith George]

It was a time when the T9 needed a major overhaul, and the NRM made it known amongst the heritage railways but no one apart from Swanage was interested at the time. But having been at Swanage a couple of years it was obvious, in good working order, it was ideal for their use, so the job was costed, but to make such a big job pay it would be needed to stay for the full ten years, but the NRM said no ( as if they had a choice at the time !!) Swanage could only have it for 7 which included the time it took to overhaul. I was on the railway's council of management at that time, and we all thought it a bit mean, so the regretful decision was taken to refuse their somewhat poor offer, and let them take it away, into store elsewhere.

 

I had always understood that the T9 was returned to the NRM because the Swanage railway could not afford the cost of the overhaul.

 

It was at a time that the Swanage railway had financial problems.

 

Keith.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Keith George

[PaulRhB]

I wonder if there are grounds for legal action against the NRM, as the proper precedure was not followed? It might discourage them from repeating their mistake, and might even get the loco back into the National Collection.

 

 

Sorry but why waste a huge amount of money that could be used to conserve exhibits to make a point when as a public body it just needs raising to the appropriate authority?

This fixation with massive enquiries and legal action when it's a simple matter of did not follow procedure just wastes more public money that should be dealt with as a pure discipline procedure once highlighted.

Edited August 3, 2017 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

I had always understood that the T9 was returned to the NRM because the Swanage railway could not afford the cost of the overhaul.

 

It was at a time that the Swanage railway had financial problems.

 

Keith.

Because they couldn't justify the cost without the guarantee of the return for the full period, too high a risk at that time? Edited August 3, 2017 by PaulRhB

[brack]

Perhaps swanage could loan it to a museum until such time as they have suitable undercover storage for it?

 

I think there's space at locomotion shildon.

[Legend]

Perhaps swanage could loan it to a museum until such time as they have suitable undercover storage for it?

 

I think there's space at locomotion shildon.

 

 

Good one !    Wouldn't be at all surprised!

[bike2steam]

It was at a time that the Swanage railway had financial problems.

 

Keith.

That was a few years earlier, fortunately things had changed by 1993.

[Bon Accord]

Perhaps swanage could loan it to a museum until such time as they have suitable undercover storage for it?

 

I think there's space at locomotion shildon.

 

There's also a couple of empty roads in York which could be used. Undercover, safe and with the pleasant side effect of being visible to a much larger audience.

Gosh, now there's an idea......

[Legend]

There's also a couple of empty roads in York which could be used. Undercover, safe and with the pleasant side effect of being visible to a much larger audience.

Gosh, now there's an idea......

 

That's not in line with a modern museum though.

 

A modern museum like Glasgow's Riverside . A collection of cars that are attached to the wall at various heights..........so you cant actually see them .   Trendy though!  Do you ever think the lunatics are in charge of the asylum?  Where did we go wrong?

[2mm Andy]

I saw and commented on the blog [1st response] which was a post-hoc justification. I don't think the NRM will try to pull this stunt again without a much more transparent process because they now know they are under public scrutiny. I certainly hope that they have taken note and learnt from the responses.

 

There is a real issue about items in the National collection which are unrestored or have deteriorated and are not on display. The Midland Railway rail motor/inspection saloon is an example. They are unlikely to be restored and don't fit within the 'Masterplan'. Many are not rolling stock. They could be vulnerable. The shocking example of the 'National Maritime Museum' scrapping the unique Paddle Tug 'Reliant' to replace it with nothing is a salutary example of why we have to be vigilant over the decisions made by public and private museums which involve trade-offs between curation, conservation, education and income generation. And I do admire and support the NRM most of the time.

 

Dava

 

The Midland Railway saloon (ex-steam railmotor) is now at Chain Bridge Honey Farm, Horncliffe, Berwick upon Tweed. The VCT carriage database lists it as having been de-accessioned from the National Collection;

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=629

 

Andy