Third-Rail EMU Photos

[John M Upton]

1 hour ago, Claude_Dreyfus said:

I thought the 313s had until December?

 

They have, well half of them anyway.  Because of SWR's issues getting the 701's into service, that has delayed the 707's all going to SE which via a shuffle around is supposed to release the 23 377/5's and 2 long term borrowed 377/1's (163 and 164) over to Southern. 

 

The two 377/1's are supposedly already at Selhurst, the 377/5's will follow in batches but it will be the end of the year before they all transfer over.  Presumably they will also get a refurb and a respray before they are let out to play, at least the seats are already the right colour!!

 

At the moment, new drivers are still be trained on 313's (probably for not much longer though) and you should see them start to gradually withdraw from the front line from September onwards.

 

Of course this could all get delayed and it rolls on into the new year....

 

 

[adb968008]

Unfortunately its a sign that preservation as we know it has passed its zenith and now failing.

 

No one in the 1960’s had a clue to how maintain a loco, no idea where it was going to go or any idea about what to do to raise cash after they had bought it.

 

In the 1990’s, living standards raised to the point that an average joe (s) could self fund buying a loco, and dozens of lines can provide a home, but the on going cash continues to be an issue.

 

It was commented yesterday if each passenger on the Metro Maurader put in £40, they could probably buy the unit (£5k a coach suggested) , cash is not that short, £25k  was raised on the railtour yesterday for Mind, in Croydon.. through sales of Worksplates, Destination blinds, Cab side numbers and other cut parts recovered from Sims last week… (Eversholt donated a huge amount of stuff for this charity trip), nearly everyone left that train with a 455 part, right down to blind box covers, and wooden isolator paddles.

(Ive got worksplates off 455838/455839 and the blind off 455801).

 

So by the time we reach electrics, the message is give up, dont bother… If a relatively cheap to run, low electronic 455 cannot be saved, then a 195, 220, 377, 390 have no chance in the future.

 

Weve gone full circle and back to the 1920-50’s where by theres a farewell run before the scrapyard.

 

That suggests the risk to many unrestored diesels, and due to age attrition, many steam locos once restored in the 1970’s-90’s potentially face the same fate, and collecting railwayana off ex-preserved locos before scrapping is a future way of raising funds.

 

Ive spent much of the last two decades chasing mainline steam, and noticed the peak start to fall after 2008-11, and  preserved railway steam started to decline from 2016, and I doubt “eco” coal will help in any way… not many steam galas field a towards a dozen locos any more,  days like NYMR putting out 3 A4’s, the MHR emptying Southall for the weekend, and Llangollens SSS galas.. I suspect those days are gone.

 

Ive practiced the mantra of enjoy it whilst you can, and since 2018 I applied that to the carnage of remaining BR era units on the mainline too…., finishing at 0120am this morning at Norwood Junction with SNs last 455843 which I noticed entered Selhurst, also without its destination blinds.. it didnt go alone, at least 50 enthusiasts were on board at 0025, around 20 at Norwood jn at 0102 and a hardy half dozen saw it off to the depot at 0119… days like 50455 on its last trip to York, or 62822 to Doncaster comes to mind.

Edited May 15, 2022 by adb968008

[Nearholmer]

Electrics have always been a challenge from a preservation viewpoint, because unless vast sums are spent to keep them mainline certificated they can’t run anywhere under their own power, and a full EMU is s big old beast to store, added to which the suburban ones have little appeal to non-gricers (A 455 or 313, pay to take the kids on that at a preserved railway? You must be joking!). So, as cash gets ever tighter, they are very much unlikely to be saved IMO.

 

Ive noticed a lot of modern main line coaches, red and grey ones, popping up on preserved railways recently and I really do wonder why anyone is bothering to buy them. They look very much like deferred scrap iron to me.

[Gwiwer]

3 hours ago, Claude_Dreyfus said:

I thought the 313s had until December?

The December timetable change is being flagged as the end for 313s. This gives a little longer to see how (or if) patronage recovers away from the main lines. 
 

Currently the Sussex coast is still offering somewhat reduced levels of service on both sides of Brighton. Whilst direct trains to Portsmouth and Southampton and additional trains to Hastings return tomorrow there are still only half the previous number of direct trains between Brighton and Worthing and four not six an hour to Lewes. 
 

If any further enhancements are made that will require more rolling stock than the 313/2 fleet alone can offer.  The 377/1 and /4 fleets will be depleted by the need to replace the 455s. 

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Electrics have always been a challenge from a preservation viewpoint, because unless vast sums are spent to keep them mainline certificated they can’t run anywhere under their own power, and a full EMU is s big old beast to store, added to which the suburban ones have little appeal to non-gricers (A 455 or 313, pay to take the kids on that at a preserved railway? You must be joking!). So, as cash gets ever tighter, they are very much unlikely to be saved IMO.

A subject I know something about.  I'll declare my hand here in that I am heavily involved with the preserved 4-Cor unit which, for various reasons, is split between two sites and for the reasons noted above and others will only be locomotive-operated and only comprise of a maximum of two carriages unless something very significant happens to improve matters.  Please be assured that the three stored coaches are considered safe, dry and not at risk.

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Ive noticed a lot of modern main line coaches, red and grey ones, popping up on preserved railways recently and I really do wonder why anyone is bothering to buy them. They look very much like deferred scrap iron to me.

I visited some "heritage railway" operations and saw images from others during my 17 years in Australia.  I was appalled but frankly not surprised at the state of most of the so-called preserved items.  Wooden-bodied stock rotting away and in some cases clearly beyond recall; steel items rusted to wasting point and again beyond recall.  There are fewer people and fewer resources in that country than the UK with which to maintain a heritage operation.  Despite that I will also say that those railways which are operational often present a well-kept train for public use - albeit often only one train with plenty more stock "awaiting restoration".  Hopefully.  It may never come.

 

I now see the same in the UK as swathes of rolling stock is made redundant and some of it purchased for ongoing use.  Not all will be for operational service for example the re-purposed class 365 at Shephedswell.  A significant number of small groups is trying gamely to prevent the decay of their precious assets but in some cases I do fear nature will advance faster than restoration.  There are many examples of tarpaulined stock and many more of items left in the open at the many heritage sites the UK now offers.  Some are genuinely only sources of parts; others are "awaiting restoration".  

 

The miracle of Barry Scrapyard has taught us to never say never and that the most unlikely projects can succeed.  But this is largely confined to steam locomotives.  More recent forms of traction don't have quite the same charisma and following and - critically - EMU / DMU projects seem to lack support, funding and homes.  Without all three we shall lose more of what we have.  And that's before anything else is "preserved".  

 

We have to be selective and that is an emotive process.   We have neither homes nor money to keep one of everything no matter how passionate its supporters.  I don't wish failure on anyone but I simply cannot see every project succeeding.  And I cannot see a real need to retain any class 455 vehicles (which is where this discussion came in) when a 317 and 210 cars already exist, EE507 traction motors already exist and other salient details of the traction control system also exist within preservation.

[KeithHC]

On the subject of the Southern Metro services. One wonders if it is being run down so that tfl Overground could take them over.

 

Keith

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

We have to be selective and that is an emotive process

True, and very true.

 

The COR stock  is a different case from modern EMUs IMO, because it has period ambience by the bucketload, so works well however it is hauled. 

[John M Upton]

Several attempts were made to preserve slam door EMU's when they were finally retired. Most eventually wound up being weighed in for scrap in the end when the pipe dreamers ran out of cash...

Edited May 15, 2022 by John M Upton

[Gwiwer]

14 minutes ago, KeithHC said:

On the subject of the Southern Metro services. One wonders if it is being run down so that tfl Overground could take them over.

 

Keith

Given TfL's finances and the previous refusal to allow them to take over other routes south of the Thames I doubt that very much. 

 

Southern Central Section suburban services are rather the meat-in-the-sandwich between SE and SW.  Both the latter have some longer end-to-end runs (for example Gravesend, Hayes, Guildford, Reading) and while Southern does have the Caterham route to itself much of its potential traffic has already to be shared with Thameslink and Overground, or faster services can be found on the main line resulting in lightly-loaded stopping trains.  

 

Historically some Central Section suburban services have been "rounders" between Victoria and London Bridge or London Bridge to London Bridge by one of several routes.  These don't seem to have been very busy at all much of the time.  Unlike the equivalent services on SE and SW (Cannon Street - Cannon Street via Crayford Spur or the Waterloo - Waterloo via Kingston as examples) for some reason Southern is stuck with unattractive and unremunerative suburban workings.  They are also dreadfully slow which is a legacy of the railway-building age as lines were squeezed into tight locations with sharp curves requiring restrictive speed limits.  

 

Options being employed to address this include the operation of a stopping London Bridge - Caterham via Tulse Hill service which replaces some of the London Bridge rounders but which still only seems to carry significant traffic south of Croydon.  

 

 

[Gwiwer]

7 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Several attempts were made to preserve slam door EMU's when they were finally retired. Most eventually wound up being weighed in for scrap in the end when the pipe dreamers ran out of cash...

The one stand-out exception being owned by the Bluebell Railway, kept by agreement at a NR location and having the benefit of an enthusiastic and knowledgable workforce able to access that location and maintain the unit.  They also have an active social media presence which keeps them in the public eye.  

[eastwestdivide]

38 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

...They are also dreadfully slow...

They are that - Crystal Palace to London Bridge, 31 minutes for 6.5 miles as the crow flies = 12.5 mph.

And you can see the CP transmitter out of both side of the train en route.

[adb968008]

All these cuts are aimed at off peak demand bringing empty trains.

 

Lets how how tomorrows services pan out, with short trains in peak hour.

 

Pre-Covid, 12 coach metros from Sutton would be rammed to the point of being unable to board between 0700-0830… people up stream from Wallington or Hackbridge would often reverse commute upto Sutton earlier, to ensure they could get on the train they wanted.

The result was stopping the non- stops at Carshalton, and of course Epsom-London Bridge via Beeches and Wallington.

 

Post Covid, these services are now full to standing, with patchy groups of seats.

 

So tomorrow, if these are 4 coaches less, to divvy up the fleet across Caterham and Epsom Downs services, does that mean:

 

1, filling up to the brim once more ?

2, proving the only way to make Metro pay is to fill it to the limits of safety once more ?

 

I am interested to know how much savings it brings scrapping a fleet of low cost, low maintenance, toilet free, electronics free, fully amortised, very reliable trains actually saves.

Edited May 15, 2022 by adb968008

[34101]

Back in 2007, 18th April, I was sent to a school in Battersea to work with some science teachers.  Travelled Kennet - Cambridge - Kings Cross, Bus 59 to Waterloo and a cab to Battersea. Afterwards they gave me a lift back to Clapham Junction, so back to Vic, striaght back by tube to the Cross and home.  Took a few photos.

 

[34101]

and a few more:

[34101]

A lovely half hour.

[34101]

nearly done ....

[34101]

a few more:

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

12 coach metros from Sutton

Twelve?  Are you sure?  The normal limit there is 10.  Thameslink and Epsom Downs trains are normally 8.  Loadings at my end (Clapham Junction) haven't been anywhere near rammed on those trains since Covid so long as things run as they should.  The busiest Southern services currently are those from the main line with 8-car 455 formations from Crystal Palace being the heaviest loaders on the Metro side.  

 

We'll see what the morning brings.  Some surprises no doubt and a few trains with either more or less carriages than might be ideal.  

 

I'm hoping the SWR fleet has been juggled to allow more than 5-car trains on the Hounslow loop.  Those were heavily-loaded 10-car workings pre-Covid, the full service hasn't yet returned and many have been diagrammed for 5-car only which has created dwell-time blow-outs (somehow always attributed to station staff though never our fault) and serious levels of frustration.  When your service is twice an hour instead of four times and formed of half the number of carriages it once was then is it any surprise people are being left behind daily?  

 

I'll leave it there and allow the topic to revert to "Third-Rail EMU Photos" 

[Jamescav95]

Tonbridge this evening 

[adb968008]

Here’s my last night, on my local lines of 455’s….

 

from 2030 until Midnight, I wandered from Carshalton Beeches to Selhurst, Wandsworth Common, Clapham and Victoria for 0005

 

 

and the very last train… 0025 to Norwood Junction

 

 

Over the last few weeks ive covered more than 15 locations between West Croydon and Epsom Downs, 8 locations between Caterham and Purley, and 10 between East Croydon and Coulsdon Town.. so i’ll probably make a few more yet…
 

I was amazed at the crowds out yesterday, viewing from the Railtour, we passed people at every station on the tour, and the send off for the ecs at Victoria was as big as the HST send off at Kings Cross in 2019.

 

i’d say 50% of the crowd at Victoria were younger than 30, indeed a good proportion were under 20, and included a good number of Asian and females enthusiasts too (my own daughter included had a fantastic time on the tour, and spent much of today discussing with her class mates today various parts of the day out), the hobby has gone a very long way from the raincoat sterotypes of the 1980’s.

 

All the Metro services had people out watching right into the late evening, and even the 0025 had a good 50 or so enthusiasts on board (though many jumped at Battersea Park and Clapham), a noble 20-30 or so made it to Norwood Junction at 0102, several of whom had booked hotels at East Croydon (there was no way back at that time)…

so much for no fans of EMUs…

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

All the Metro services had people out watching right into the late evening, and even the 0025 had a good 50 or so enthusiasts on board (though many jumped at Battersea Park and Clapham), a noble 20-30 or so made it to Norwood Junction at 0102, several of whom had booked hotels at East Croydon (there was no way back at that time)…

so much for no fans of EMUs…

 

 

 

The point is more that such fans simply do not exist outside the railway enthusiast community.

 

By contrast a steam loco / posh dining expense will pull in people who couldn't give a monkeys about railways as well as enthusiasts who do thereby increasing the monies generated significantly  .

 

A Heritage railway focusing on just the enthusiast market would go bust extremely quickly  - and most are very well aware of that so look to diversify their product and make it an attractive destination for non railway lovers too.

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Given TfL's finances and the previous refusal to allow them to take over other routes south of the Thames I doubt that very much. 

 

Southern Central Section suburban services are rather the meat-in-the-sandwich between SE and SW.  Both the latter have some longer end-to-end runs (for example Gravesend, Hayes, Guildford, Reading) and while Southern does have the Caterham route to itself much of its potential traffic has already to be shared with Thameslink and Overground, or faster services can be found on the main line resulting in lightly-loaded stopping trains.  

 

Historically some Central Section suburban services have been "rounders" between Victoria and London Bridge or London Bridge to London Bridge by one of several routes.  These don't seem to have been very busy at all much of the time.  Unlike the equivalent services on SE and SW (Cannon Street - Cannon Street via Crayford Spur or the Waterloo - Waterloo via Kingston as examples) for some reason Southern is stuck with unattractive and unremunerative suburban workings.  They are also dreadfully slow which is a legacy of the railway-building age as lines were squeezed into tight locations with sharp curves requiring restrictive speed limits.  

 

Options being employed to address this include the operation of a stopping London Bridge - Caterham via Tulse Hill service which replaces some of the London Bridge rounders but which still only seems to carry significant traffic south of Croydon.  

 

 

 

Thats because it overlaps other services 99% of the journey inwards of Croydon (the only bit not duplicated is Streatham Common - Streatham IIRC) and because of the need to path itself across flat junctions / avoid conflict with Thameslink and Epsom trains) it doesn't necessarily fit into an even interval frequency pattern at many of the stations it calls at which can mean many passengers have been hoovered up by another service a short time previously.

 

However it does provide a significantly cheaper way of reaching south London from Surrey / Sussex than going by London Bridge 

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The point is more that such fans simply do not exist outside the railway enthusiast community.

 

By contrast a steam loco / posh dining expense will pull in people who couldn't give a monkeys about railways as well as enthusiasts who do thereby increasing the monies generated significantly  .

 

A Heritage railway focusing on just the enthusiast market would go bust extremely quickly  - and most are very well aware of that so look to diversify their product and make it an attractive destination for non railway lovers too.

True,

A Heritage railway without volunteers hasnt got a future, dining trains or not… how many of the 200 lines and museums exist solely on a 100% payroll, and make a viable self sustaining profit which goes back into infrastructure and growth ?.. 3,4, 5 perhaps ?

 

Much of this crowd probably dont care about a preserved railway either, so the feeling maybe mutual. They may even grow up to disdain of them and lobby for their closure (Colonial, Racist, Environmental, Elitist, non Humanitarian charities, unsightly,  competing sporting interests (cycle tracks etc), commuter rail, theres more than a few seedlings of arguments against them, and they rely on local authorities to exist, the very same authorities which are changing their ruling demographics from the retired white male image of the past… not everyone is fan..

https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/9165171.sutton-taxpayers-own-a-steam-locomotive-that-few-have-ever-seen/

 

To me thats a weakness / threat that preserved lines need to navigate if they want to survive, to become a non-charity business, or as a charity they need to remain relevent to its volunteers and to its neighbours.

 

Thats a politics debate, that as an ex-volunteer I left long behind too.

 

Instead, I enjoy it whilst ive got it.. photos and videos are all that will exist in the future, unless someone makes a model….

 

In which case, come find me, as ive spent the last months recording every bit of noise they used to make too.

 

I suspect old EMUs will be appreciated far more in the future, and some regret that so little is saved today will be seen.. after all steam is becoming unaffordable, diesel will be faded out… Brighton Belle may yet replace a steam hauled diner in logistics, affordability and still remain desirable.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by adb968008

[Southernman46]

Look no further than the Bullied DD stock - a TRUELY unique item of electric rolling stock ............. and that has barely survived to the current day through numerous scares - illustrates the likely chances of any other stock in future unless it is part of something like the National Collection.

[John M Upton]

There has been much noise and froth regarding 313201 being destined for the National Collection but I still have my doubts for as far as I can tell, the NRM have not officially accepted it and when(if?) they do, where will they put it and what can they do with it?  In its current condition it can't operate outside of the third rail network and reinstating its overhead capability is likely to cost a bundle, especially as the working kit all went through the shredder at Sims in Newport when they tore the ex Great Northern ones apart.