Smart Meter = smart move?

[Jonboy]

The other side of this is how the IOT or internet of things will fit into it, eg. If you are wealthy enough you will be able to buy a smart fridge, freezer, heating system, boiler, dryer etc etc, that goes price is high let’s cut the cooling cycle (a well insulated fridge should be able to cut cooling for 4 or so hours whilst staying in safe range,)...oh look energy is cheap let’s top up the hot water...not wealthy then you get stuck with punitive rates for your dumb appliance...

[Platform 1]

On 23/08/2019 at 14:40, SHMD said:

how many would not have been in a position to do anything about it (even if they had “smart” meters) with suppliers communicating instantly with bill payers currently in the bath, on the phone, on a plane, in a meeting, no battery, etc.

 

Maybe you won't need to - I'm sure I read somewhere that the Mk2 smart meters are able to to control as well as report.  It would take load-shedding to a new level as the supply network could be micro-managed.

 

And then there's the hacker aspect - anyone seeing your patterns of use knows when you're probably not at home...

 

Paranoid - moi?

[Ouroborus]

On 22/08/2019 at 21:33, APOLLO said:

Read this government report, published today (I've already posted a link in the EV thread).

 

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmsctech/1454/1454.pdf

 

Page 95 / 96

 

 

200. Market-wide half-hourly settlement of energy consumption costs will incentivise energy suppliers to offer tariffs that reward consumers for using energy when it is abundant, helping to enable higher levels of intermittent renewable power generation.  

 

Big brother tactics ahead - then peak pricing.

 

Brit15

 

On 16/05/2019 at 08:42, Ouroborus said:

The purpose of smart meters is to enable the suppliers to offer various prices according to when you use electricity.  Use it at off peak and its cheaper.  Of course, if you want to make a cup of tea at half time in the football, expect to pay a premium.

 

All the rest about energy saving, inaccurate old meters is just rubbish.

 

 

Hate to say I told you so, but it was clear from the start that smart meters had one main purpose.

[Torper]

Smart meters may well be used in future for varying the price of electricity depending on time of day, demand, etc.  But don't think that by keeping your old meter you'll avoid that.  I predict that eventually the government will insist that the higher tariffs will apply at all times to old fashioned meters, and that will coincide with a charge being imposed for the installation of smart meters.

 

DT

[APOLLO]

Big Brother tactics indeed.

 

Ain't life going to be wonderful in our squeaky clean & green future !!

 

Brit15

 

 

[boxbrownie]

10 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

 

 

 

Hate to say I told you so, but it was clear from the start that smart meters had one main purpose.

 

But when Smart meters were first introduced and we (the few) said it was a sneaky way to “smarmy pricing” not “smart metering” people said we were paranoid........just like the members of Parliament, the biggest insult is they believe we don’t know what’s going on, not everyone is as dumb as they!

Edited August 26, 2019 by boxbrownie

[Reorte]

14 hours ago, Jonboy said:

The other side of this is how the IOT or internet of things will fit into it, eg. If you are wealthy enough you will be able to buy a smart fridge, freezer, heating system, boiler, dryer etc etc, that goes price is high let’s cut the cooling cycle (a well insulated fridge should be able to cut cooling for 4 or so hours whilst staying in safe range,)...oh look energy is cheap let’s top up the hot water...not wealthy then you get stuck with punitive rates for your dumb appliance...

 

If you're not wealthy... or find the idea of a house full of things connected to the internet ludicrous. I'll settle with just my computer connected, thanks. Might have to get my hands on a backup diesel genny though...

Edited August 26, 2019 by Reorte

[Reorte]

13 hours ago, Platform 1 said:

 

Maybe you won't need to - I'm sure I read somewhere that the Mk2 smart meters are able to to control as well as report.  It would take load-shedding to a new level as the supply network could be micro-managed.

 

And then there's the hacker aspect - anyone seeing your patterns of use knows when you're probably not at home...

 

Paranoid - moi?

 

Hardly paranoid because there's no other reason for them. Sure, not having to send someone around to do a meter reading is a small reason but people doing that has been going on for years without causing problems - it's hardly a good reason. The bill's the bill, it all gets paid in the end. That they were ever designed to be capable of automatically sending very regular readings though, that was the really suspicious bit beyond high-tech digital for the sake of it obsession. No-one has any need for that, monthly readings would be entirely sufficient. And in terms of actually monitoring wider grid usage the usage at the local substation would probably be much more useful for the supplier, and I assume they've been able to do that for many years. So just what is the point of very frequent readings?

[royaloak]

This reply from Apollo on page one says it all really.

 

On 12/04/2017 at 19:52, APOLLO said:

I worked in the gas industry (gas distribution side) all my life  - leaving school to retirement a few years ago.

 

Smart meters have there uses, for both consumers (not many) AND suppliers (very many).

 

The suppliers WILL in the not to distant future, price by the hour using TOU (time of use) tariffs. Peak load (Teatime) will be more expensive, a way of reducing demand for both gas and electricity. Coal power stations are closing and no nuclear replacements will be ready anytime soon. Wind won't supply base (electric) load. Smart meters will "make up the difference" by price forcing energy use reduction at peak times.

 

I won't voluntarily have them installed until forced to do so.

 

Brit15

You cant say you weren't warned!

Edited August 26, 2019 by royaloak

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Torper said:

Smart meters may well be used in future for varying the price of electricity depending on time of day, demand, etc.  But don't think that by keeping your old meter you'll avoid that.  I predict that eventually the government will insist that the higher tariffs will apply at all times to old fashioned meters, and that will coincide with a charge being imposed for the installation of smart meters.

 

DT

 

The Government might  well do that eventually- but the more 'dumb' meters there are out there the longer it is until the threshold of making it an acceptable  political strategy is reached.

 

Much like the switch off of analogue TV its is accepted wisdom that before you can move to a new system you need to have persuaded the majority of folk to have upgraded.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The Government might  well do that eventually- but the more 'dumb' meters there are out there the longer it is until the threshold of making it an acceptable  political strategy is reached.

 

Much like the switch off of analogue TV its is accepted wisdom that before you can move to a new system you need to have persuaded the majority of folk to have upgraded.

 

The big difference there was that for the majority of people there was no downside to changing to digital TV (I think a few with very borderline reception lost out?), and for most you got a better picture and more channels. So the public went along with it, sure, there was some grumbling (still looks like a change for the sake of it to some of us, and some needed to get a new TV or box). But the "benefits" of smart meters to the end user are so tiny that there's never going to be that level of co-operation. So what we'll see is not so much it dragging on (although there'll be a bit of that) but increasing levels of stick applied because there's no carrot.

[Phil Parker]

18 hours ago, Gareth Collier said:

He asked where I would like the monitor plugged in that would handily tell me I was using more electricity when the cooker was on but would happily leave it in the box where most end up as long as, if asked, I said he'd plugged it in (his words). It may well still be in the box but the box is in landfill somewhere!

 

Long before smart meters were being installed, I bought an "Owl" device for my sister. This was essentially the monitor part of the system. Before passing it on, I tried it at home and found it fascinating seeing just how much power different devices use.  Now we have a smart meter that does the same thing.

 

Treated as an educational tool, it has a lot of value. If you want to persuade people to buy more economical devices when they replace white goods, it helps if they get an understanding of how much power each uses. Seeing a monthly bill won't do that and most people aren't going to make any effort whatsoever to understand consumption. Plonk a readout beside the telly and you might make a bit of headway, especially as kids are very hot on environmental issues now. You can tell them to turn things off to save the electricity, but the meter provides a direct response to the switch and they can feel they have done "their bit" to help the polar bears etc.

 

Obviously, the government could mandate more efficient devices, but in a free market system, it's better that consumer pressure does this. Manufacturers will NOT make any efforts in this direction unless forced too. Why waste R&D money on something the consumer isn't keen to have?

[phil-b259]

18 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

The big difference there was that for the majority of people there was no downside to changing to digital TV (I think a few with very borderline reception lost out?), and for most you got a better picture and more channels. So the public went along with it, sure, there was some grumbling (still looks like a change for the sake of it to some of us, and some needed to get a new TV or box). But the "benefits" of smart meters to the end user are so tiny that there's never going to be that level of co-operation. So what we'll see is not so much it dragging on (although there'll be a bit of that) but increasing levels of stick applied because there's no carrot.

 

 

I agree with all of that - but it was still the case that the Government couldn’t make the switch till a certain threshold was reached.

 

Granted it’s a harder sell with Smart meters - “upgrade so you can pay more” is not exactly the best tag line to use even if that’s the aim so things will take longer.

 

It’s worth noting that at some stage analogue radio will be turned off - but as with Smart meters take up of digital is quite slow.....

[Reorte]

51 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

It’s worth noting that at some stage analogue radio will be turned off - but as with Smart meters take up of digital is quite slow.....

 

Like smart meters it comes across as digital for the sake of it - most people are perfectly happy with analogue radio so won't bother to switch without being kicked.

[Torper]

When we're meant to be going green and using less energy, I've never understood why we're being encouraged to use digital radios which use much more power than their analogue equivalents.

 

DT

[Reorte]

16 minutes ago, Torper said:

When we're meant to be going green and using less energy, I've never understood why we're being encouraged to use digital radios which use much more power than their analogue equivalents.

 

OK it's muddling two environmental issues but I've just bought some new light bulbs from Tescos. Why is it that the halogen bulbs are multiple in a box, entirely in cardboard containers whilst the LED ones are individual bulbs largely contained in plastic? Fine on the individual front perhaps, they last much longer so there's less need to buy in bulk, but the plastic?

Edited August 26, 2019 by Reorte

[jcm@gwr]

19 minutes ago, Torper said:

When we're meant to be going green and using less energy, I've never understood why we're being encouraged to use digital radios which use much more power than their analogue equivalents.

 

DT

 

Also the quality on digital is no better, on average.

Yes, when it works well it's great, but when it isn't it drops out completely.

But analogue just goes a bit crackly, and you don't miss the important bits!

[Reorte]

Come to think of it, they keep banging on about "an end to estimated bills" with smart meters. Isn't that missing most of the point about estimated bills, that they smooth out winter and summer usage so that your payments are even throughout the year? (in any case they could always have billed you just on annual readings, with estimates only being needed when you first move in).

[Torper]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

.............so there's less need to buy in bulk, but the plastic?

 

There.s nothing wrong with plastic per se.  As so often is the case, the problem lies with people who don't dispose of it properly.

 

DT

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, Torper said:

 

There.s nothing wrong with plastic per se.  As so often is the case, the problem lies with people who don't dispose of it properly.

 

Not many places that'll take that sort of plastic packaging, and why use it over card anyway? Even if you can get rid of it it's not easy to separate it from the card backing. I'm afraid it's all gone in the bin, can't put it in anything at the house and even if I take it to the tip (which I visit every now and then to get rid of the plastic bottle backlog) it'll be "general waste" there.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Reorte

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

Not many places that'll take that sort of plastic packaging, and why use it over card anyway? Even if you can get rid of it it's not easy to separate it from the card backing. I'm afraid it's all gone in the bin, can't put it in anything at the house and even if I take it to the tip (which I visit every now and then to get rid of the plastic bottle backlog) it'll be "general waste" there.

What plastic is it, black?

[J. S. Bach]

6 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

 ...snip... Might have to get my hands on a backup diesel genny though...

I did that two months ago, although it is propane powered.

 

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

The big difference there was that for the majority of people there was no downside to changing to digital TV (I think a few with very borderline reception lost out?), and for most you got a better picture and more channels. So the public went along with it, sure, there was some grumbling (still looks like a change for the sake of it to some of us, and some needed to get a new TV or box). But the "benefits" of smart meters to the end user are so tiny that there's never going to be that level of co-operation. So what we'll see is not so much it dragging on (although there'll be a bit of that) but increasing levels of stick applied because there's no carrot.

The problem with TVs, especially analogue ones were a lot were incorrectly adjusted and people seem to be prepared to live with it, or couldn't perceive there was a problem.

As TVs have advanced many of the maladjustments have been overcome because there is less to maladjust.

Some of this has occured as we have changed to digital TV.

A good, well adjusted analogue TV will have a better picture than digital in a good reception area but for most it is the opposite, the digital is by default better than they watched before.

The same applies to DAB radio & FM. A good FM radio will produce a better sound than DAB because DAB (as with Freview digital TV) is transmitted with an artificially low bit rate.

BTW Satellite TV IMHO is better than Freeview, picture wise because it has a higher picture data rate.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

What plastic is it, black?

Nope, but whether it can or not be recycled by someone doesn't relate to whether it's easy or not where you are. And considering card can be everywhere it's hard to see the point in the plastic.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The problem with TVs, especially analogue ones were a lot were incorrectly adjusted and people seem to be prepared to live with it, or couldn't perceive there was a problem.

As TVs have advanced many of the maladjustments have been overcome because there is less to maladjust.

Some of this has occured as we have changed to digital TV.

A good, well adjusted analogue TV will have a better picture than digital in a good reception area but for most it is the opposite, the digital is by default better than they watched before.

The same applies to DAB radio & FM. A good FM radio will produce a better sound than DAB because DAB (as with Freview digital TV) is transmitted with an artificially low bit rate.

BTW Satellite TV IMHO is better than Freeview, picture wise because it has a higher picture data rate.

 

That suggests though that even not at it's best quite a lot of people were satisfied with what they had. Improvements are a game of diminishing returns, to the point where increasing numbers of people start to question just what's the point. i may have reached that point earlier than most people but there seems to be more and more people in that position. A case in point - computers reached that point a few years back to the degree that many people don't even bother buying one any more, happy with what a phone or tablet can do.