What is a Cameo Layout?

[Porcy Mane]

Now what to run in it? Hmmm,

 

With a little help from Tri-ang?

 

 

P

Edited May 4, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[PaulRhB]

I wonder will people who make their own cabinet / cameo box get more marks than people you buy laser cut kits?

 

If not it would surely be a competition to see who can spend the most money?

 

...R

Not really they will look at the presentation but part of that is it shouldn't detract from the layout so big and showy isn't really going to work

If you want a fancy shape use a jigsaw and cut any straight edges by clamping a bit of wood to the frame as a guide, it just takes a little more time. Less time than doing drawings, getting them checked, cut and shipped. Laser cutting is great for repetitive stuff but about the same price as buying the tools and wood for a one off

Fitting a nice layout in a commercial cabinet is a nice way to include it in a room if that's where it will live but I don't think it will score more or less than a nice simple picture frame type display.

There's another idea you can use, picture frames, and they don't need to be 6 inches wide and gilt

 

It's not a cameo but you could adapt the idea I used to store my layout to make the upper box the layout. It's just a built in fridge freezer door kit from B&Q on a frame and wheels. It stacks for storage and is disguised to look like furniture. Make the inset panel removable to show the layout?

Stacked

 

Setvup

Edited May 4, 2017 by PaulRhB

[BG John]

I'm afraid this question may start an argument and end up with the topic being locked, but I need an answer, before deciding whether to buy the book and enter .

 

I'm drawing up a plan for a 4'6" x 2'6" plus fiddle yard O gauge layout. It's about as small as I can get it, and about the biggest baseboard I think I might be able to handle in one piece. And now the contentious question:

 

Is there any useful guidance in the book about baseboard height, and the height of the arch/bit of wood across the top above the baseboard? I think these are both quite critical questions, because I need a couple of carefully planned view blockers to make it work, and the framing round the front will need to help with this. If I achieve everything I want, I'll be able to operate it while standing in the audience talking to people, so it would be good if I can actually see what I'm doing, without having to stoop down to compensate for my parents inconsiderately making me 6'2½". Being quite a deep baseboard, setting it too low may prevent a lot of people being able to see right to the back.

 

Some idea of what to aim for would be useful, before I get too far with the plan.

[davknigh]

I think you will find anything above 50" will work fine. Mr Rice mention 52" as the height that works for some of his and other layouts in The Book. I have a portable layout that I operate that has the track 53" above the floor and I'm 5'11" and slowly subsiding.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[PaulRhB]

No there's no definite height as such it but the competition rules suggest around eye level presentation so just make the arch higher than your eye level. If the layout needs to be at a height to see over, to see the trains, then that's common to you and viewers

I'm 6ft 4in so my idea is probably 8 ish inches higher than his!

The rules are very open so I'd take eye level as the viewpoint you want the scene to be seen from, there's no reason you're not viewing it from a building but it may be worth working that into your description.

Scroll down to - Trerice in P4 – by Iain Rice, to get an idea of what he means by height as Iain is in the photo.

http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutsexhibit1.html

Edited May 4, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Signalman Rich]

In the book Iain mentions and illustrates small mini-trestles that he mounts on to the standard exhibition tables for use at exhibition, that are then hidden behind drapes to lift the layout to the eye-level viewing. At home he has the layout on conventional shelving brackets for display. That way one has the best of both worlds. It strikes me that at home many might sit down to operate their layout in which case one might only need a couple of very short mini-trestles to have an eye-level view if the layout sits on a piece of furniture or kitchen table.

 

To get my layout into the attic I have had to make the lighting/proscenium arch detachable as the maximum height of the backscene cannot be more than sixteen inches so that it will fit comfortably through the hatch. One factor that I have noticed with my construction at home with the proscenium arch is this: if you sit with too low a viewing point you can see where the top of the sky at the rear of the layout ends and the real world operator's jumper/ view out the kitchen window / bookcase behind the layout (insert as appropriate)  obtrudes into vision and the illusion is lost.

 

Given that our cameo layouts might well be exhibited at specialist shows the tall eye level viewing point is not a problem. However at more general shows an alternative might be to have the layout at a lower height so that children and those in wheelchairs might be able to see. Siting a short row of chairs for the public to sit on in front of the layout would then give an eye-level view. If I operate from the back, as will need to, to  access the traverser and  three link couplings, (which I could not do from the front as the lighting arch will be in the way), I could do that from a standing position at the back.  At a high exhibition level I will need to have a box to stand on so that I can reach over the backscene. Not a problem to make the box but it would require another trip to the car when unloading and loading the layout. Not sure about having a row of chairs in an aisle at exhibition. Health & Safety anyone?

 

Just my thoughts on how I plan on solving potential difficulties.

Best wishes

Signalman Rich

[Joseph_Pestell]

As regards height, I am working on the idea of legs that work like those on an ironing board to be able to adjust height. If I am feeling really clever, I might try to do it with triangular legs (one of the triangles inverted) which should give maximum stability on uneven floors.

 

The potential difficulty, of course, is that as the layout gets higher it could be unstable especially if narrow. Iain's idea of booster legs to put on a standard exhibition table gets around this neatly.

[Robin2]

Is there any useful guidance in the book about baseboard height, and the height of the arch/bit of wood across the top above the baseboard?

Iain Rice's general approach is that layouts should be viewed at eye level - just as we view the real world. The layout can be positioned for a seated or a standing eye level in different circumstances.

 

If you are also asking about the distance between the baseboard and the proscenium arch then I don't think there are any limits. The purpose of the proscenium arch is to prevent the viewer from being able to see the top of the backscene (i.e. the top of the sky).

 

...R

[Stubby47]

Sherton Abbas made it's debut at the Taunton SWAG Members' Day last Sunday.

 

Wenlock (Dave) is 6'4", so made the baseboard height to suit him.  You can see pictures of him in the thread, (tall, check shirt). The upper arch is about level with his eyes, so all he see is the layout and the backscene.

 

For the rest of us, the baseboard at about 5ft high was more or less eye level, we could see the top of the backscene and the ceiling above.

 

My Tinners Forge has a trackbed height of 51.5"  (4ft 3.5inch), the overall height of the layout board is 17" (to the top of the proscenium).  This is fine for me being only 5'8" tall.

 

So, eye level is up to you, but the top of the frame being about eye level with the builder seems to be a good rule of thumb.

[Porcy Mane]

 However at more general shows an alternative might be to have the layout at a lower height so that children and those in wheelchairs might be able to see. 

 

Helping operate two layouts that are comparatively high has led to some complaints about viewing. High is perfect for me as bending is difficult but those confined to wheelchairs understandably cannot see. We've seen a few wheelchair users bring their own periscopes and have considered knocking one up to offer those wheelchair users that don't come so equipped.

 

Kids, if small enough are usually lifted by their parents and will be plonked on the barrier (if strong enough). If the kids are of an age where they are too big to be manhandled we've found that the step ups many shows now provide a solution with some parents (and kids) telling us they bring their own step ups to shows as a matter of course.

 

With the smaller of the two layouts there is always a tall kitchen chair for the "out front" operator to use and this is regularly pressed into use to give kids a viewing perch. They then usually have the controller thrust into their hands and if they pass out the simple drivers test we bu**er off to the nearest pub and leave them in to it.

 

Maybe with a little adaption this is the answer to all out prayers.

 

and there's this:

 

We've also found the odd locomotive tender useful for providing a multi-height-age operators position but as ever wheelchair users found access difficult.

 

P

Edited May 5, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[S.W.Neill]

Snipped

 

"Is there any useful guidance in the book about baseboard height, and the height of the arch/bit of wood across the top above the baseboard?

Some idea of what to aim for would be useful, before I get too far with the plan.

 

Hi,

 

I have an existing layout that seems to work at 46" rail height, also I have not detected a hard height rule anywhere, not sure there are any rules really!! My own interpretation is that as a basic guideline the front fascia and back scene should enclose the visual space so that this is all that is seen - the book to some extent focuses more on controlling the presentation to exclude distractions (operators, hall surroundings etc) rather than fixing a height. Hence the height rather depends on fascia aperture, back scene height, depth of board and scene modelled.

 

In the "Cameo book" and at exhibitions O gauge layouts are I believe under represented in the "Cameo class", seems the P4/EM guys rather dominate, it would be good to see a few more 7mm layouts. I've always thought it ironic that if you raise a P4 layout to eye level then the visual benefit for the track is reduced - the birds eye pictures show it for sure but this is not how they are seen at shows.

 

As for the book, I found it interesting irrespective of the competition and has some useful ideas.

 

Steve

[S.W.Neill]

Just as an adder to my last post:

 

One of the problems is that "eye level" varies with people from 5'6" to 6'6"!!! So what we tend to do as a club is pitch the height for an average height of 5'10" standing 18" away from the layout. Then make sure those at 5'6" can't see above the back scene whilst giving the extra tall a chance to see to the back of the layout. Can look odd with us bobbing up and down (up usually involves standing on something!).

 

Steve

[t-b-g]

The subject of layout heights has been discussed many times on here. The only resolution to the dilemma is to accept that there is no "right" answer.

 

I won't be submitted an entry to this one. I see enough youngsters and people who struggle to see layouts that are so high up even at specialist shows.

 

To suggest that a layout could have a set of high legs for specialist shows and a set of lower ones for general shows is just wrong. It is saying that those in wheelchairs and youngsters are not regarded as being wanted or expected at timescale/specialist shows. I find that sort of idea so opposite to my own views. Over the years I have built layouts between around 3' to 4'of the ground.

 

When they have been lower, I have been able to give youngsters and people in wheelchairs the chance to join in and have a go operating.

 

I remember once seeing an advocate of high level viewing exhibit a layout so tall that I couldn't see the track. It was, according to the guide, P4 but for all I could see it could have been Hornby 3 rail.

 

He had to stand on a box to reach anything. It was very funny but as an exhibit it was totally ineffective.

 

My theory is that it is a lot easier for taller people to get nearer the ground than it is for shorter people to get higher up. Usually anyway.

 

Anybody else remember the Goodies? Is discrimination against less tall people called apartheight?

[Neil]

How many of us are interested in the competitive element or even the possibility of winning? Really? Model railways seems to me to be one of the less competitive hobbies; I would have thought that most will enter the competition because it is a bit of a lark rather than the prospect of fame and fortune. I'd argue that being overly concerned with matching the criteria/strict adherence to the rules risks stifling creativity. Rather than picking over the minutiae of the book and the rules I'd suggest that we approach the matter of defining a cameo layout in the way we do a zebra. I've never come across a written specification for a zebra, I'm unaware of what height it should be or how long it is. However I find identifying a zebra to be easy, experience has taught me that it looks like a stripy horse. I'd be disappointed if the competition throws up a series of identikit layouts presented in a tightly specified manner because of a drive to compete. Far healthier and more interesting I think to present your individual take on the subject with a 'whaddya reckon to that' attitude.

[PaulRhB]

I'd just look at it as an excuse to try another thing out Compared to some others p4 standards etc I wouldn't expect to win but it'd be fun just using it as an excuse. I was tempted but I have two projects on the go and neither really fit the criteria so I'm mulling a Micro just for the fun of entering and trying out an idea.

So competitive no but as a bit of fun to join in yes I'm very tempted to be slightly heretical to the guiding rules and stick with OO but see if I can make it look good like Mr Nevard with the plus of the new bullhead track

Edited May 5, 2017 by PaulRhB

[BG John]

Thanks for all the replies. And for not starting a fight, yet!! I wasn't asking with the intention of complying with any rules, but to get some practical advice from experts. As was mentioned, there aren't many 7mm scale Cameo Layouts, so not much to go on. All the various layouts I'm currently building could be adapted to the Cameo format, but all but one are in 4mm scale, where hiding the exit to the fiddle yard is easier (but not easy), as the trains go through a smaller hole. The scenic areas of my 4mm layouts range from 3ft to 6ft in length, but the O gauge one I'm planning will be the equivalent of 2'6" x 1'5" in 4mm. It will have four tracks going into the fiddle yard, and needs a hidden traverser at the other end, to run round. Controlling the viewing area to make it look convincing will be challenging. Doing it for viewers who vary in height will make it even more interesting! The first stage will have to be a full size mockup, but I don't want to have to do too much trial and error with the whole design at that stage, just tweaking what I've designed on the computer, if possible.

 

Another aspect is compressing the width, so that tracks that are spaced unrealistically close look convincing. I think I can shave a bit off the double track through the platform, by building it to suit the stock I'll be running, rather than comply with GOG or prototype standards, and the sidings will be rather close together.

 

Maybe using CGI, rather than a physical model, would be easier. Is a big TV screen with computer generated layout allowed?

[davknigh]

The subject of layout heights has been discussed many times on here. The only resolution to the dilemma is to accept that there is no "right" answer.

I won't be submitted an entry to this one. I see enough youngsters and people who struggle to see layouts that are so high up even at specialist shows.

To suggest that a layout could have a set of high legs for specialist shows and a set of lower ones for general shows is just wrong. It is saying that those in wheelchairs and youngsters are not regarded as being wanted or expected at timescale/specialist shows. I find that sort of idea so opposite to my own views. Over the years I have built layouts between around 3' to 4'of the ground.

When they have been lower, I have been able to give youngsters and people in wheelchairs the chance to join in and have a go operating.

I remember once seeing an advocate of high level viewing exhibit a layout so tall that I couldn't see the track. It was, according to the guide, P4 but for all I could see it could have been Hornby 3 rail.

He had to stand on a box to reach anything. It was very funny but as an exhibit it was totally ineffective.

My theory is that it is a lot easier for taller people to get nearer the ground than it is for shorter people to get higher up. Usually anyway.

Anybody else remember the Goodies? Is discrimination against less tall people called apartheight?

Agreed that there is no "right" answer and that everyone should be able to see the layout who paid their admission. That said, spare a thought for the poor soul that's operating said layout. None of us are getting any younger and having to bend over to operate for six hours is probably forbidden under the Geneva Convention. It's one thing for club layouts with a great crew of operators but for the individual who gets no relief a two day exhibition can be enough to put one off exhibiting. I've run both ways, with a layout that was about 3' and my own which is 53" and I know which I prefer.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[BG John]

I used to exhibit my layouts, and always think about building them for exhibition, even though it's unlikely they'll go out often, if at all. So perhaps the best thing is to design it for me, and in a form that qualifies as a Cameo. If it's invited out, it will be as a Cameo layout, with all that implies, and it's up to the exhibition organisers to take the flak if visitors don't like it!

 

This isn't intended to start a fight, but to be realistic in what I can do with the format! I'm tempted to add a proscenium arch to my other layouts to act as a support for a removable cover in my dusty house, but they are easier to view at a lower height without one.

[Robin2]

It seems to me to be inherent in Iain Rice's concept of a Cameo Layout that it does not of itself have any particular viewing height. The height is determined by whatever is supporting it - so it could be sitting on a table or on a tall stand at different times.

 

For my own use I want something that is at eye level when I am sitting in an armchair. But if I were to take it somewhere else it could be at any height.

 

...R

[t-b-g]

Agreed that there is no "right" answer and that everyone should be able to see the layout who paid their admission. That said, spare a thought for the poor soul that's operating said layout. None of us are getting any younger and having to bend over to operate for six hours is probably forbidden under the Geneva Convention. It's one thing for club layouts with a great crew of operators but for the individual who gets no relief a two day exhibition can be enough to put one off exhibiting. I've run both ways, with a layout that was about 3' and my own which is 53" and I know which I prefer.

Cheers,

David

That all depends on the operator being happy standing for a whole weekend!

 

The baseboards on Buckingham are around 2' 7" from the floor. Operating that from the comfort of an adjustable office armchair for several hours at a time gives me no problems at home but I would agree that is a bit low for a show.

 

We exhibited Leighton Buzzard (around 3') at one show that used rows of seats as barriers. The number of people who actually sat down, watched the layout for ages and then commented that the combination of that height layout with seated viewing and operating was enough to convince me that sitting to view and operate works for me.

 

I appreciate that it is not always possible at shows but a barrier to lean on can give the watcher a lower viewing angle and allow an operator to sit comfortably.

[BG John]

That all depends on the operator being happy standing for a whole weekend!

Having discovered what you can do with Arduinos, I dream of automating the layout. Then I can just chat to the audience, wander round looking at other layouts, and have regular cake and coffee breaks, while the layout operates itself .

[Stubby47]

Having discovered what you can do with Arduinos, I dream of automating the layout. Then I can just chat to the audience, wander round looking at other layouts, and have regular cake and coffee breaks, while the layout operates itself .

Or just build a simple roundy roundy...

[BG John]

Or just build a simple roundy roundy...

In O gauge, in a small space, while giving some sort of impression of realism? Tell me how, as I'd love to know .

[Stubby47]

Circular baseboard, circular track, baseboard rotates at same speed as train traverses the other direction, just a quarter of the layout on view.

[Signalman Rich]

t-b-g post 113  Thank you for pointing out my error in suggesting that lower viewing height is only suitable for general shows. On re-reading my post tonight I can see how one might think that I was suggesting that wheelchair users and young ones are not welcome at specialist shows. To the contrary, the young are the potential lifeblood of the hobby and need to be encouraged and having been made redundant through disability I have every sympathy with  disabled modellers and others who come to any show. I apologise for any offence that I have unintentionally caused.

 

Like other writers on this enjoyable thread I do not expect to win any prizes, nor am I entering with that as my goal. As Simon Castens has pointed out in his posts what I am doing is having fun with the whole process. Long may it continue. I look forward to seeing photos of progress both as inspiration and in the hope that I will learn new techniques to improve my modelling.

 

Best wishes

Signalman Rich