Penmaenpool (Llyn Penmaen)

[Focalplane]

Tortoises...

 

I like servos, and Arduinos offer a cheap way of driving them (much cheaper than peco!) with options for bells and signals and interlocking and anything else you’d like to program, but you’re not looking for cost saving innovation, as much as confidence and convenience.

 

Like I said, Tortoises

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon

 

I have 8 Tortoises from previous layouts so I can use those and then think about other options for the scenic layout.  I did look into Arduinos some years ago but felt that my "retired" mind is not up to their requirements, remember that in my career the most sophisticated tool I carried was a geological hammer which did not need programming!  I have looked at the Peco system and agree that it seems to be expensive.  I have two servos in stock to operate signals so perhaps I can get my head around servos eventually.  Right now I can crack on with the Tortoises.

 

Many thanks, Paul

[gismorail]

Simon

 

I have 8 Tortoises from previous layouts so I can use those and then think about other options for the scenic layout.  I did look into Arduinos some years ago but felt that my "retired" mind is not up to their requirements, remember that in my career the most sophisticated tool I carried was a geological hammer which did not need programming!  I have looked at the Peco system and agree that it seems to be expensive.  I have two servos in stock to operate signals so perhaps I can get my head around servos eventually.  Right now I can crack on with the Tortoises.

 

Many thanks, Paul

With regard to point motors and the operation of them I would strongly suggest the Mega points system and although it does cost for the control boards the fact that the servo's work out at about £1.75 each compared to the Tortoises motors at £15 plus then it does work out a lot cheaper. The real big plus is the ease of programming and the fact that it just needs two wires from the layout to the control panels and believe me if I can work it out anyone can and I'm not joking with that statement. Being an ex farmer my tools of the trade were a 'hammer and a piece of string'    Yes at first it does take a bit to get one's head around at first but I found that I was trying to make it a lot more complicated than it really is. Have a browse through his website : megapointscontrollers.com. Also Dave is an extremely helpful guy who will help you through the basic's . It is also possible to control Tortoise motors with the system as well if you wish to go down that route but you will still have the cost of the motors plus the programming boards. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by gismorail

[Simond]

the most sophisticated tool I carried was a geological hammer which did not need programming!

I’m reminded of the tale of the tv repair man, who walked in, turned on the tv, prodded a few buttons, and then walloped it firmly on the side - result, perfect picture & sound. He presented the owner with a £50.50 bill. “What? fifty pounds and fifty pence just for hitting the telly ?”

 

“No sir, fifty pence for hitting it, fifty quid for the years of experience that taught me where to hit it”

 

Best

Simon

Edited May 11, 2018 by Simond

[Focalplane]

Simon

 

The oil industry variation on the theme was a refinery hand who retired after 40 years working. A week later he got a call from the manager that there was sonething wrong with the piping. The story runs in the same vein. The manager joked that the retiree should send in a bill, which he did, for $1,010. $10 for coming back to the refinery, $1,000 for knowing which pipe to hit with his sledge hammer.

 

OK, back to the salt mines!

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

Finally! I was able to buy the rest of the L Girder timber this morning. Now I am stuck waiting for an engineer to show up at my apartment to service the water heater. So far 2 hours late. It’s cold and with no furniture not very comfortable! 12 deg outside and very windy, there was even heavy snow yesterday in the centre of France (Lozere).

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

But this evening I did get two hours of woodworking accomplished. The heat pump engineer had a car accident, hence the no show. Maybe tomorrow?

 

I completed the benchwork for one corner so now I have about 75% of the L Girder framework completed and about 20% of the hidden track bases. Progress and hopefully there will be more done this week.

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

It is about time I added a few construction photos, and these focus on the non-scenic corner with the Dolgelley fiddle yard in place.

 

 

This shows the corner with three levels.  At base level is the three siding Dolgelley fiddle yard with the autocoach.  Over this are two inclined tracks.  The one closer to the camera is the "main line" with Penmaenpool station loop off to the right.  This has nearly reached the scenic datum of the layout and the loop point will be just off photo.  The inclined track at the back is the feed to the Barmouth fiddle yard and also the hidden continuous loop that will allow two trains to run (for the grandkids!) and also provide storage for Saturday excursions, etc.  This is diving down to below the platform area of the station and will be screened off from the scenic layout (that's why it is at the back!)

 

 

This is a view of the same corner but from the entry doorway where there will be a hinged section.  The Marcway double crossover is temporarily added.  This is necessary to give complete freedom of movement between the two circuits

 

 

And a slightly different view.

 

The uprights for the main line are temporary but I have set up super-elevation to see how it will work when screwed down.

 

Paul

[Andrew P]

All coming on well Paul, soon have some Trains running mate.

[Focalplane]

All coming on well Paul, soon have some Trains running mate.

 

Andy

 

Many thanks, that is, by the by, my intention!  But good things don't necessarily happen yesterday!

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

A few pounds have been parted company with in the past weeks.  The parcel post generally takes a week from England, so in order of arrival:

1. Youchoos ZIMO sound decoder for the 14XX tank engine
2. Two Minerva vans, one Mink, the other the necessary Gunpowder van for Mid Wales operations
3. Some Peco points from Tower Models
4. And lastly I just paid my deposit for the David Andrews Bulldog Dukedog kit due at the end of summer; I'll buy the extras then

In June I will buy the Warren Shephard 43XX/93XX kit and hopefully all the extras to go with it.

 

As Andy says, I will soon have some trains running but exactly when depends on how quickly I can build the layout.  The weather has not been friendly recently so there is every excuse to disappear into the railway room.  Given some early summer weather that may not be so easily done.  But I would like to see summer truly arrive and not tease us with one day over 20º then reports of high winds and rain for the next four days.  Heck, I could just as well be in Wales!

 

Just kidding!  Paul

Edited May 15, 2018 by Focalplane

[coachmann]

 But I would like to see summer truly arrive and not tease us with one day over 20º then reports of high winds and rain for the next four days.  Heck, I could just as well be in Wales!

Er... It has been roasting here, but the off -shore cloud cover has drifted in since around teatime and I have the house lights on as I type this. Llangollen was showing as full-sun this morning.  

 

You mentioned a 'Bulldog'. I presume its GWR but post-war or not? Or are you doing an Andy P and mixing the periods?

[Focalplane]

Er... It has been roasting here, but the off -shore cloud cover has drifted in since around teatime and I have the house lights on as I type this. Llangollen was showing as full-sun this morning.  

 

You mentioned a 'Bulldog'. I presume its GWR but post-war or not? Or are you doing an Andy P and mixing the periods?

 

Er...  My mistake, Larry, it will be the Dukedog 9017, 89A, shiny black to bring out on special occasions!

 

And the Midland Compound I mentioned on your Carrog Road topic, it won't be running on Penmaenpool except when Rule 1 applies.  I started building LMS locos a few years ago simply because I like them!

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

While adding to the structure this evening I realized there is space for some storage tracks below the scissor crossing.  These would not be connected to the layout so would simply be a place to put locos and stock not being used.  Then I thought about another use.  Why not make one track a DC test track and another a DCC programming track.  The DC track would have the same configuration as the one I currently use - a 1.8 meter radius reverse curve included - but would be built in and wired in.  The programming track would be a simple straight section with no need for running space so could be at the back.

 

Here is the space, it is 1.7 meters long:

 

 

The entry door is to the left and there will be a lifting section there.

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

Some thoughts on my L Girder system now I have had some experience working with the design:

 

Planning is essential but don't think that everything has to be set in stone before you begin.  That is one of the advantages of the system.  But do think about modular construction of the leg supports and the L Girders.

 

Think about datum(s) when designing a multi-level layout.  I made a datum stick from a length of 2" x 1" with penciled markings.  Having a level floor was a great help but if the floor isn't level then the system can still be leveled at the top of the L Girders which ideally should be the same height everywhere and therefore designed to be at the lowest point envisaged for the layout design.

 

Layout height is important and no two people will find the same height ideal for them, so do some tests (stretching and leaning over an object that represents the finished level of your layout).  In Gauge O it is quite probable that reach will be a problem, so think about access hatches in the corners of the room.

 

If all the leg supports are the same design they can be constructed very easily.  I found power tools to be almost essential in speeding up the process.  A good table saw and chop saw were both worth their purchase.

 

Timber for the L Girders should be selected carefully and this was a major problem.  If any of the timber used for the framework is not planed to 90º corners then there will be problems.  Warped timber should not be used.

 

I use two screw sizes and have adopted Torx headed screws as the electric screwdriver likes them more than the crosscut design.  They are 4 x 40 and 4 x 30 (metric) using a T20 Torx driver.  I countersink screw heads into the plywood where necessary but on regular fir timber the driver does the countersinking for me.

 

In contrast the actual track supports can use any timber available.  I have not used MDF at all even though it would probably be stable enough in my railway room which does not have wide temperature or humidity changes.  Instead I am using old well seasoned timber I have collected and stored (under the living room sofa) for several years.  Thick plywood is also used but the quality of plywood is not as good as it used to be.  My track bases are made from reasonable good 10mm plywood with a good surface finish.  If there are enough track supports any warping can be reduced to acceptable levels.  If supports cannot be spaced equally, consider some under plywood strengthening as long as it does not cause clearance problems.

 

I am putting down cork sheet on both scenic and hidden areas.  The latter has cheaper cork sheeting.  After the glue has set I run over the cork surface with an electric sander to eliminate any rough or uneven spots.

 

Cutting the plywood track bases is essential to the concept and for this I recommend a good modern electric jig saw.  The difference between an old one and my new one is amazing.  I think this is because of the anti-vibration mechanism.  But whatever the design, it cuts through 10mm plywood like it was butter.

 

It should go without saying that the lowest track levels should be built first and in my case they will be fully tested before the upper scenic levels are added.

 

I hope this may be of interest.  The system can be used for any scale (in fact I previously used it on an American HO layout when living in Houston) and it really comes into its own in multi-level designs.

 

Paul

[coachmann]

Er...  My mistake, Larry, it will be the Dukedog 9017, 89A, shiny black to bring out on special occasions!

 

And the Midland Compound I mentioned on your Carrog Road topic, it won't be running on Penmaenpool except when Rule 1 applies.  I started building LMS locos a few years ago simply because I like them!

 

Paul

I do like the older taper boiler outside frame 4-4-0's. Far more attractive than the Dukedogs, it is a pity they were withdrawn so early in the BR period. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by coachmann

[Focalplane]

Last evening's idea has borne fruit:

 

 

I have added a cork track base and fixed the DC test track.  This has a 1.8 meter (6ft) radius reversed curve.  A second piece of track represents the programming track that will be fixed and wired up later.

 

The DC test track is powered by an old 110 volt controller, shown at left.  This requires a step down transformer of which we own several, having lived in 110 volt country for many years.  Some more photos:

 

 

 

These show the MOK 14XX, still without a decoder fitted, first running on the track, then on the rolling road.  These form the first running session, if it can be called that, in the new railway room.  I blame Andy P for getting "sidetracked", but actually the achievement is all rather exciting - thanks, Andy!

 

Paul

Edited May 16, 2018 by Focalplane

[Focalplane]

Not much progress today, time spent on the beach!  But a much needed rest from the woodwork.  However, I did start taking down the old shelves and took this photo while so doing:

 

 

The shelves are going to have a new home in the garage/workshop.  Not much gets wasted around here!

 

Paul

[gismorail]

I spent last night reading this thread through from the start Paul as I have been dipping into it at regular intervals but could not quite get my head around the basic concept before. It sure is a project and a half and have to say that you must have a real grasp of what you are looking to achieve ...amazing forward planning going on here that's for sure. I couldn't work out what the ruling gradients are throughout the layout as I'm intending to have a gradient to a branch station I my forthcoming 7mm layout which is going to be built in a shed very similar to your railway room and like you I am working with a 12ft width which is quite tight in 7mm. 

I have to say the your progress is rapid considering the other things that are going on in your life excellent keep the information coming enjoying the build from my armchair 

[Focalplane]

I spent last night reading this thread through from the start Paul as I have been dipping into it at regular intervals but could not quite get my head around the basic concept before. It sure is a project and a half and have to say that you must have a real grasp of what you are looking to achieve ...amazing forward planning going on here that's for sure. I couldn't work out what the ruling gradients are throughout the layout as I'm intending to have a gradient to a branch station I my forthcoming 7mm layout which is going to be built in a shed very similar to your railway room and like you I am working with a 12ft width which is quite tight in 7mm. 

I have to say the your progress is rapid considering the other things that are going on in your life excellent keep the information coming enjoying the build from my armchair 

 

Thank you so much for your kind comments - the project does at least seem to be coming along at a speed I am now happy with!  The ruling gradient originally was going to be 1:50. This is the same ruling gradient as Andrew Pearce has adopted for his Somerset & Dorset Model (which is featured extensively on the Gauge O Guild Forum).  His limit is about 5 coaches per locomotive but prototypical double heading allows for some exceptions on Summer Saturdays.  The same applied in Mid-Wales as in Somerset.

 

My ruling gradient is now somewhat less due to the change to a double slip under the scenic layout instead of three levels there I now have only two.  This allowed me to reduce the overall range of levels by 6 centimeters.

 

I find the woodworking a lot less daunting than future work with the wiring.  I rather think that the wiring will be "old school" without the high tech stuff.  Though I would hope that ultimately I can incorporate something like the Megapoints system.  Right now I have some time to do more research as the first non-scenic areas will use up the 8 Tortoises I already own.  Some time back I also stated that I wanted to have the points and signals operated by prototypical lever frames and have 7 such levers already in stock, so the Mimic control panel would render them unnecessary.

 

As noted above, I don't like to waste anything!

 

Paul

[Simond]

Paul

 

I'm happy to generate a wiring diagram if you want - as long as you give me a good track plan (ideally from CAD), tell me what you (want and) need, and are not in a screaming hurry...  DC and/or DCC...

 

best

Simon

[Focalplane]

Paul

 

I'm happy to generate a wiring diagram if you want - as long as you give me a good track plan (ideally from CAD), tell me what you (want and) need, and are not in a screaming hurry...  DC and/or DCC...

 

best

Simon

 

Simon

 

Thank you so much for the kind offer.  I think I must pass at the moment - I can wire the DCC for running trains, what I have yet to get my head around is how to control the track and signals.  Having done the tortoises before I can go ahead with that aspect.  Full control by DCC is a distant hope for me at the moment!

 

Thank you again, Paul

[Mike Boucher]

Some thoughts on my L Girder system now I have had some experience working with the design:

 

...

 

Timber for the L Girders should be selected carefully and this was a major problem.  If any of the timber used for the framework is not planed to 90º corners then there will be problems.  Warped timber should not be used.

 

I have to admit, I thought that one of the things you could do with L girder was use "warped" wood to construct the L's.  You can't use complete crap wood, but reasonably clear wood, even if there's a warp to it, can work fine.  Unless the lumber is truly shaped like a pretzel, putting the two pieces together to form the L **carefully** would effectively eliminate any warping in both, giving you a straight L piece.  And that L piece is also resistant to sagging between supports.  (L girder is pretty common over here in the States, developed by Linn Wescott over 50 years ago).

 

I agree that the 90 is important, a friend bought a small jointer, specifically to make sure the edges were flat and 90 degrees to the face, when he built the benchwork on his large N scale layout  (the mainline is 140 feet long...)

[Focalplane]

I have to admit, I thought that one of the things you could do with L girder was use "warped" wood to construct the L's. You can't use complete crap wood, but reasonably clear wood, even if there's a warp to it, can work fine. Unless the lumber is truly shaped like a pretzel, putting the two pieces together to form the L **carefully** would effectively eliminate any warping in both, giving you a straight L piece. And that L piece is also resistant to sagging between supports. (L girder is pretty common over here in the States, developed by Linn Wescott over 50 years ago).

I agree that the 90 is important, a friend bought a small jointer, specifically to make sure the edges were flat and 90 degrees to the face, when he built the benchwork on his large N scale layout (the mainline is 140 feet long...)

Mike, you are correct that warped wood can be used for the L Girders but I would suggest that if there is a choice, go with the good wood. Besides, when I say “warped” I am thinking of strips of timber that have been so badly stored in the local bricolages that they are beyond redemption. I should probably have taken photos of the worst examples I have seen in past few months. They were bad!

 

It was while living in Texas that I first used the system devised, as you say, by Wescott. I think a very large layout in a Mid West shopping mall used metal (?aluminum) L Girders for the framework.

 

Thanks, Paul

Edited May 19, 2018 by Focalplane

[coachmann]

There's a lot going for 'L' section and open girder until some changes need to be made, then its a case of adding bits of more "ground". I suppose some of us are conditioned by our childhood trainsets into making conventional baseboards with flat tops., but only putting timber where the tracks will go makes for easier super-elevation, which is no-mess compared with sanding down cork underlay.

Edited May 19, 2018 by coachmann

[Focalplane]

More work completed over the weekend, despite distractions.  The basic framework has just been completed with the fourth corner having been constructed.

 

 

The cross timbers will give greater strength to the system.

 

I have also glued down and sanded all the cork for the Dolgelley fiddle yard and have the track ready to lay once I have modified the wiring for the two points.  The sidings will hold one 4/5 coach train plus tender loco, one mixed goods and one local passenger, either a two coach or an autotrain.

 

 

I can then wire the fiddle yard as a test for the DCC and lever frame points control.  It will be good to be able to run a train, switch a point and so on before doing more construction.  This may help me to decide which way forward on the layout control

 

Paul