For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[Johann Marsbar]

One of that first batch of IBT Falcons did end up with Eagre in Gainsborough, somewhat rebuilt....

 

 

[Nearholmer]

On 16/03/2021 at 17:08, Gwiwer said:

The 729 has become the 29 (with A, B and X variants) and on the non-covid timetable is half-hourly through to Tunbridge Wells with shorts providing four-an-hour out to Uckfield and six (including route 28) to Lewes.  B&H has been the sole operator of all those for many years now.

 

I still regard the 729 as a recent innovation, and can't get my head around the idea that its now the 29 and operated by B&H, even when riding on it. Its still the 119 and 122 in my brain, and Brighton busses are exotic sky-blue and white, or red and cream things that you only see at the seaside.

 

But, I certainly recall the vehicle shown in the photo that sparked this off, making it all the way to Tunbridge Wells periodically.

[Gwiwer]

Brighton - Tunbridge Wells was the 119.  The 122 was the Gravesend route for with TW was only the halfway house and crew-changeover.  Each had their own routes which today are all part of the 29.  

 

I still know most - possibly all - of the Southdown routes and route numbers of that era.  On the occasion of a friend's wedding a few years ago I drove (to be his best man) from Brighton to Gravesend via the 122 route - or the closest approximation of it available today - without getting lost other than in the middles of an unfamiliar one-way system around Tunbridge Wells.  The rural wanderings through Shipbourne and Plaxtol were no problem, neither was the deviation through Istead Rise.  I pulled up at Overcliffe opposite the former M&D garage slightly miffed that I hadn't been able to do it on a PD2  

 

The 116 / 118 around Crowborough and Jarvis Brook?  Now those I would have to stop and think about!  

[Nearholmer]

The 116/118 were devious routes, which seemed to vary every time you got on the bus and, to confuse even the wary, sometimes you needed to get on a bus heading in completely the opposite direction from that to your destination. 

 

If you have an album called "Streets of Sussex", there is a good photo in it of MUF 632, parked outside Chappell's the chemist in Croft Road , Crowborough, the "bus office" being in a wooden hut (now florists) next door. This was where the 116 used to hang about while the driver chatted to everyone for half an hour or so, and consulted his book to work out where it was supposed to go next (or maybe he just went different places on a whim!).

 

As you might guess, I grew-up in Crowborough. On one occasion I dragged my then 9yo youngest brother on a trip to Gravesend to see the fireless locos at the paper mill, one bus all the way. We came back part way on a service that terminated at Maidstone, and I remember buying fish and chips in a place near the bus garage. I was 12yo at the time, and the strange thing is our parents were totally unconcerned about this excursion - it was just normal for two boys of that age to go off on such a jaunt.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Metr0Land]

One set of LT hire-ins in the mid 70's we haven't covered yet is the use of Southend PD3's on route 190 from Thornton Heath to Old Coulsdon.

 

CJN436C at Old Coulsdon late 1975

CJN439C Croydon Feb 1976

CJN442C with CJN441C Croydon late 1975

MHJ436F Old Coulsdon late 1975

[RANGERS]

On 24/03/2021 at 20:38, Gwiwer said:

It was said with some justification that a Volvo B58 was just an AEC Reliance with a different badge.  Not quite.  But the similarities were there as was the engine note.  

Its something that's often been said but I'm not sure it was anything more than a myth.

 

The Reliance used a straight, ladder frame chassis whereas the B58 frame was a more complex arrangement which wasn't flat, it swept over the front and rear axles and the forward mounted engine position, making it a much more complex job to body. Suspension on the B58 was also completely different, same cart springs up until the late 70s but mounted in a way which gave more flexing. It didn't do much for the ride but it had a massive effect on the life of springs, the shock forces were much better damped.  I'm not sure the engines had much in common, the Volvo had separate cylinder heads and gaskets for each pot, which made serious maintenance a bit of a breeze by comparison.

 

The ZF box never suited the Leopard for me, I passed my test on one (CJE454V) and drove enough others, not to mention my share of AECs, and the extra torque of the AEC engine always gave it the edge. Oh, and you could stop them without having to give a weeks' notice in writing! Leopard brakes were dreadful and the Tiger didn't get much better. 

[PhilJ W]

The Volvo and AEC engines were not that different. Both had wet liners and the AEC's had split cylinder heads, each for three cylinders.

[RANGERS]

8 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The Volvo and AEC engines were not that different. Both had wet liners and the AEC's had split cylinder heads, each for three cylinders.

The 9.6 litre AEC engines (A218/ 219/ 220 and AH590), which shared capacity with the Volvo were wet liner, but Reliance’s from 1966 onwards had dry liner engines (AH505/ AH691/ AH760), albeit with greater (691 and 760) or lesser (AH505) capacity.

 

The dry liner AEC engines weren’t as successful as the wet liner versions, all three suffered overheating problems to some degree but the AH690, which was the wet liner equivalent of the 691 and used in Regal VI chassis for export, operated in warmer climes reputedly with very few problems. The 760 fared better than either the 505 or the 691 but still required a close eye on the temp gauge, going uphill in particular. A front mounted rad and electric fan would have made a world of difference to what was an excellent performer and may have extracted more power, closer to the 200bhp+ of the vertical versions of the 690.

[SRman]

3 hours ago, RANGERS said:

The 9.6 litre AEC engines (A218/ 219/ 220 and AH590), which shared capacity with the Volvo were wet liner, but Reliance’s from 1966 onwards had dry liner engines (AH505/ AH691/ AH760), albeit with greater (691 and 760) or lesser (AH505) capacity.

 

The dry liner AEC engines weren’t as successful as the wet liner versions, all three suffered overheating problems to some degree but the AH690, which was the wet liner equivalent of the 691 and used in Regal VI chassis for export, operated in warmer climes reputedly with very few problems. The 760 fared better than either the 505 or the 691 but still required a close eye on the temp gauge, going uphill in particular. A front mounted rad and electric fan would have made a world of difference to what was an excellent performer and may have extracted more power, closer to the 200bhp+ of the vertical versions of the 690.

 

I often wondered why they didn't take a leaf from the Leyland Panther design route, and use a front mounted radiator with the superior AEC engines (the Panther and Swift chassis were essentially the same thing, from my understanding). Brisbane's Leyland Panthers operated reliably for many years in their sub-tropical climate, with the problem being that it was the drivers that tended to overheat on hot days, rather than the engines!

Edited April 4, 2021 by SRman

[Gwiwer]

It does seem odd that Brisbane considered the Panther a success when many other places did not. 
 

Did Leyland have too much invested in the Leopard?  

[Oldddudders]

On 02/04/2021 at 12:57, Metr0Land said:

One set of LT hire-ins in the mid 70's we haven't covered yet is the use of Southend PD3's on route 190 from Thornton Heath to Old Coulsdon.

 

CJN439C Croydon Feb 1976

 

 

 

 

And just out of shot on the left was Tamworth Road and the 630 and 654 trolleybuses in my yoof. We would catch the 414 from Betchworth (Barley Mow) so mum could visit M&S. 

[Metr0Land]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

And just out of shot on the left was Tamworth Road and the 630 and 654 trolleybuses in my yoof. We would catch the 414 from Betchworth (Barley Mow) so mum could visit M&S. 

 

Ah yes, M&S were famous for their knickers back then.

[PhilJ W]

9 hours ago, SRman said:

 

I often wondered why they didn't take a leaf from the Leyland Panther design route, and use a front mounted radiator with the superior AEC engines (the Panther and Swift chassis were essentially the same thing, from my understanding). Brisbane's Leyland Panthers operated reliably for many years in their sub-tropical climate, with the problem being that it was the drivers that tended to overheat on hot days, rather than the engines!

They didn't want to produce anything that would show up those products with 'Leyland' on the badge. Many of the ex London Transport Swifts that ended up in Malta were fitted with front radiators, one at least having a complete Ergomatic front grill and panel fitted. Many others were swapped over to the wet liner engines.  

[SRman]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

They didn't want to produce anything that would show up those products with 'Leyland' on the badge. Many of the ex London Transport Swifts that ended up in Malta were fitted with front radiators, one at least having a complete Ergomatic front grill and panel fitted. Many others were swapped over to the wet liner engines.  

Quite possibly: Leyland eventually replaced the AEC range completely with their own versions. Some later Reliances I rode in had wooden springs like their Leopards!

Some of those Maltese Swifts were far more drastically rebuilt, and gained front engines and manual gearboxes. Apart from bits of the chassis and remains of the LT bodies, they really weren't Swifts any more.

[PhilJ W]

5 minutes ago, SRman said:

Quite possibly: Leyland eventually replaced the AEC range completely with their own versions. Some later Reliances I rode in had wooden springs like their Leopards!

Some of those Maltese Swifts were far more drastically rebuilt, and gained front engines and manual gearboxes. Apart from bits of the chassis and remains of the LT bodies, they really weren't Swifts any more.

They eventually just put their name on the AEC models, the Reliance in particular. A back handed way of admitting that AEC was the superior product. 

[PhilJ W]

One of the Maltese Swift conversions was to mid underfloor configuration. Externally it looked like a normal ex-London Swift until you noticed the raised seats. I looked inside and it still had the LT fleet number on the coving panel above the driver.

[Johann Marsbar]

12 hours ago, SRman said:

 

I often wondered why they didn't take a leaf from the Leyland Panther design route, and use a front mounted radiator with the superior AEC engines (the Panther and Swift chassis were essentially the same thing, from my understanding). Brisbane's Leyland Panthers operated reliably for many years in their sub-tropical climate, with the problem being that it was the drivers that tended to overheat on hot days, rather than the engines!

 

 This one was still about when I first went to Brisbane in 1992...

 

 

..... so getting on for 24 years old at that time.

[Dunsignalling]

Love the "go faster" windows....

 

John

Edited April 4, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[SRman]

10 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

 This one was still about when I first went to Brisbane in 1992...

 

 

..... so getting on for 24 years old at that time.

 

With 340 of them to this style (and one earlier one with a completely different body design), all bought within a few years as tram replacements, it took quite a while to wind the Panther fleet down again with newer buses being delivered in smaller batches. Even so, a good many went on to second lives with more provincial operators, including a batch I encountered in Townsville, roughly 800 miles north of Brisbane. It must have been fun driving them northwards with a top speed of 68 kph!

[Johann Marsbar]

4 hours ago, SRman said:

 

With 340 of them to this style (and one earlier one with a completely different body design), all bought within a few years as tram replacements, it took quite a while to wind the Panther fleet down again with newer buses being delivered in smaller batches. Even so, a good many went on to second lives with more provincial operators, including a batch I encountered in Townsville, roughly 800 miles north of Brisbane. It must have been fun driving them northwards with a top speed of 68 kph!

 

This one, with the Athol-Hedges bodywork, had made it to the Tram Museum at Ferny Grove in 1992....

 

 

They had quite a line-up of buses there at that time, though we got the impression from the Museum volunteers that there was very little interest amongst the membership for motorbuses, so they were more or less in "as arrived at the site" condition, with the exception of a 1948 AEC Regal III that had fairly recently been restored...

 

 

I don't see any mention of motorbuses on their website, so they may have gone elsewhere now.

 

 

 

 

[SRman]

49 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

This one, with the Athol-Hedges bodywork, had made it to the Tram Museum at Ferny Grove in 1992....

 

 

They had quite a line-up of buses there at that time, though we got the impression from the Museum volunteers that there was very little interest amongst the membership for motorbuses, so they were more or less in "as arrived at the site" condition, with the exception of a 1948 AEC Regal III that had fairly recently been restored...

 

 

I don't see any mention of motorbuses on their website, so they may have gone elsewhere now.

 

 

 

 

 

A few survivors went to the Queensland Bus Preservation Society (correction) Queensland Omnibus andCoach Society - they have Panther 722, as well as several other buses - but most of the buses that the BCC left to the Tram Museum were allowed to rot beyond redemption. The BCC basically left them one from each batch of buses, usually the class leader, although 722 was the last Panther. I would have loved to see Charles Hope bodied AEC Reliance 263 back on the road, but I don't think any of those have been preserved anywhere.

The Tram Museum also had trolleybus N0. 1 at one time. I don't know if they still have that or not.

Edited April 5, 2021 by SRman

[Johann Marsbar]

10 minutes ago, SRman said:

 

A few survivors went to the Queensland Bus Preservation Society - they have Panther 722 - but most of the buses that the BCC left to the Tram Museum were allowed to rot beyond redemption. The BCc basically left them one from each batch of buses, usually the class leader, although 722 was the last Panther. I would have loved to see Charles Hope bodied AEC Reliance 263 back on the road, but I don't think any of those have been preserved anywhere.

 

That was the impression we were given at the time - they had been presented with one of each type, but, other than the Regal, nothing was likely to be done to them as nobody really wanted the things. I recall there was some problem with using a bus on the public highway at that time as well - they had to be tested to full PSV standards and the heavy motor car/Class 5 test which we had here was an alien concept to Queensland!

 

The other buses there at the time of our visit are shown in the photos below...

 

 

 

 

 

[SRman]

Some good photos there. Johann - also sad because many of those buses are now lost to us. However, there is a glimmer here: 241, the Leyland Royal Tiger Worldmaster has been preserved and is in use at the Swanbank railway preservation group, the Queensland Pioneer Steam Railway, and can be seen in its original silver livery on their website here http://www.qpsr.org/ .

I do have some photos from the earlier days of the Tram Museum, but they are prints and I will have to scan them into digital form at some time. I took some of their official opening day photos with their camera, too (don't ask how I got the job!).

 

Even in your photos you can see the poor condition of some of the buses. For anyone who is interested, I can identify them as follows:

67 and 68, I'm not sure but could be Daimler or Albion.

203 AEC Regal IV with Commonwealth Engineering body (later known as Comeng).

 

80 is the Tram Museum's operational AEC Regal III.

 

10 was the first Leyland Panther from 1966 with its unique Denning body, and 2-speed ZF transmission.

 

343 (not showing its number) was a Freighter bodied Leyland Leopard, the first BCC design with the lantern windscreen and double width front entrance.

 

263 AEC Reliance 590 with Charles Hope body. They also had very similar 303, a Leyland Leopard with Hope body.

 

241, as mentioned above, Leyland Royal Tiger Worldmaster with (I think) Atholl Hedges body.

Edited April 5, 2021 by SRman

[PhilJ W]

Unlike New Zealand were I understand a trolleybus museum operates on the public highway.

 

[Johann Marsbar]

Three from the wonders of Wigan, 40 years ago today - 14 April 1981.....

 

 

 

 

HEK 705 was still in regular GMPTE service at that time, but ended up in the Manchester Transport Museum fairly soon after.