fire in London tower block

[APOLLO]

As for the cladding one thing no one has mentioned is the fixing of it to the building. Regardless of the cladding itself how fire resistant were the fixings (thinking that some glue would have been involved) and did any adhesive actually react with the cladding to change its properties.

 

Photo of a typical cladding installation (found whilst trawling the net). NOTE - I don't know if the Grenfell Tower was similar. 

Aluminium rails fixed to concrete structure presumably by anchor bolts. Black insulation pads on RHS - don't know what the the material is - looks like fibreglass. 

 

 

Looking for news on action on local (Wigan) flats I found this (from 2013). God knows how this stuff was fixed - not very well as it fell off !!!

 

http://www.wigantoday.net/news/tenants-demand-action-after-slab-near-miss-1-5587248

 

Brit15

Edited June 17, 2017 by APOLLO

[brigo]

As for the cladding one thing no one has mentioned is the fixing of it to the building. Regardless of the cladding itself how fire resistant were the fixings (thinking that some glue would have been involved) and did any adhesive actually react with the cladding to change its properties.

 

According to the drawings the cladding was to be fixed with screws/bolts and brackets

 

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Drawing-952306.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=952306&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

 

Note originally the cladding was to be a Composite Zinc Panel, so this was changed at some point. Behind the panel was a 150mm thick sheet of Celotex FR5000 insulation material. Page 6 and 7 of this document

 

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Other-952368.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=952368&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

 

Celotex is composed of Polyisocyanurate. I won't speculate if it contributed to the fire. Wiki article here,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisocyanurate

 

Brian

[Nearholmer]

Horsetan asked: "What exactly is government for?"

 

Which is why I tend to ask dull questions about legal duties and powers, because when you move beyond philosophy and rhetoric, government is for whatever the law says it is for, which is a staggering lot of things actually, because politicians tend to bring into being laws giving themselves powers, and subservient bodies, made up of lower forms of politicians, duties.

 

So, in a case like this, we ought to be asking not only a load of technical questions about fire safety, but a load of questions about who had what duties, and whether or not they exercised them diligently, and who had what powers, and whether or not they deployed them wisely and compationately.

 

Besides that cartoon in the Times today, there was a comment piece which used a phrase something like: "set to become the defining disaster of a generation", which I truly expect it will ....... its almost inconceivable that "the nature of the country" won't be changed by this horror, it poses soooo many questions about what we are as a country.

 

K

Edited June 17, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Horsetan]

.... "set to become the defining disaster of a generation", which I truly expect it will .......

....and that's up against pretty stiff competition.

[kevinlms]

According to the drawings the cladding was to be fixed with screws/bolts and brackets

 

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Drawing-952306.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=952306&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

 

Note originally the cladding was to be a Composite Zinc Panel, so this was changed at some point. Behind the panel was a 150mm thick sheet of Celotex FR5000 insulation material. Page 6 and 7 of this document

 

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Other-952368.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=952368&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

 

Celotex is composed of Polyisocyanurate. I won't speculate if it contributed to the fire. Wiki article here,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisocyanurate

 

Brian

News is coming out that the actual panels used were 'not suitable for buildings over 30 metres tall'. As per manufacturers brochure.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-17/grenfell-tower-panels-not-suitable-for-tall-buildings/8627790

[Neil]

Here's an illuminating piece which draws attention to the obvious link between a reduction in fire safety audits by a quarter in tower blocks since the 2010 and a reduction in Fire Brigade funding over the same period. Apparently in London 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines withdrawn and 600 fire-fighter posts cut. Here's what one Tory thinks about that ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kevinlms]

Here's an illuminating piece which draws attention to the obvious link between a reduction in fire safety audits by a quarter in tower blocks since the 2010 and a reduction in Fire Brigade funding over the same period. Apparently in London 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines withdrawn and 600 fire-fighter posts cut. Here's what one Tory thinks about that ....

 

In Australia when Law & Order (which terrorism undoubtably is) is mentioned. Political parties fall over themselves with promises of extra police, etc.

 

In Britain, it seems that the promise is to reduce numbers! Very odd.

[Horsetan]

....In Britain, it seems that the promise is to reduce numbers! ....

Unless it's managers. That seems to be one of the few categories to increase numbers.

[peanuts]

Photo of a typical cladding installation (found whilst trawling the net). NOTE - I don't know if the Grenfell Tower was similar. 

Aluminium rails fixed to concrete structure presumably by anchor bolts. Black insulation pads on RHS - don't know what the the material is - looks like fibreglass. 

 

 

Looking for news on action on local (Wigan) flats I found this (from 2013). God knows how this stuff was fixed - not very well as it fell off !!!

 

http://www.wigantoday.net/news/tenants-demand-action-after-slab-near-miss-1-5587248

 

Brit15

little bit of an observation re the cladding some of years ago during the usual jan-easter lul in agency driving work my agency got me three weeks work in a company that imports and cuts this stuff to size rady for fitting .it comes in huge four meter x four meter sheets and is then cut on a computerised air table ready for delivery . this stuff definitely isnt fibreglass tho it is a lightweight plastic compound with the feel and consistency of sundeala the stuff we were cutting was going onto various tower blocks around salford and stretford including the three towers in the opening credits for corrie dont know if this is the same stuff used in this case 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Horsetan asked: "What exactly is government for?"

 

... government is for whatever the law says it is for, which is a staggering lot of things actually, because politicians tend to bring into being laws giving themselves powers, and subservient bodies, made up of lower forms of politicians, duties...

 Unfortunately, those elected typically are out of their depth in any technical or scientific matter. I found myself in front of a Commons select committee in which the problem that quickly emerged was that all those on the committee had a pre-Newtonian grasp of mechanics. Not fit for purpose...

[jjb1970]

Politicians cannot be expected to be professionally competent in every area that government is responsible for. What they need to be able to do is listen to professional advice, weigh arguments and apply good judgement. They are supported by a huge civil service which is supposed to have the requisite professional competence and all those qangos and government agencies.

Nothing in regulation is simple. I do have a lot of sympathy for ministers in particular as they have to make decisions and will be held responsible for their decisions. They are not in the enviable position of the media commentariat and opposition members in being paid to run off 500 words of garbage on a subject about which they know nothing, whip themselves into a self righteous frenzy and then forget it all to move onto the next story.

Most regulatory development depends to a great degree on industry for the simple reason that most of the experience and expertise sits within industry.

[PhilJ W]

According to this mornings news 58 people are unaccounted for. With those deaths already known this will put the death toll at 80-90 persons.

[Nearholmer]

It helps if politicians have at least some idea, but they can't know everything, and what they really should do is to employ competent people to act for them. Unfortunately, we have a culture that tends to regard public servants as a drain on resources, and worships 'financial efficiency' and low taxes (income tax; council tax etc) ....... which leads to a shortage of real talent if not done exceedingly carefully. Seems as if K&C didn't have enough talent locally, and didn't effectively enlist the support of neighbouring boroughs who do. See front page of Times this morning.

 

K&C have long been famed as a low tax, super-efficient council, and, IIRC, pioneered the rolling 2% reduction in costs, year-on-year-every-year, technique. That is part of why there is so much stored resentment towards them from their poorer residents. Whether that had any bearing I have no idea, I'm just filling in background.

 

K

Edited June 18, 2017 by Nearholmer

[APOLLO]

Again over the years I had a lot of contact with quite a few councils here in the North west. They held regular (monthly) meetings with the statutory authorities (gas, water, electric, telecoms etc) which were always very useful. The council found out what works we all had planned, and vice versa. It was also a place to co-ordinate works (didn't always work or go to plan though !!).

 

Many council department heads and their subordinates were very knowledgeable and helpful - most had been there for years and years, they were always available to contact when required (highways departments especially for us). Over the years many of these fonts of knowledge retired, many not being replaced. What was a well oiled machine slowly started to seize up. 

 

Brit15

[Zomboid]

Many council department heads and their subordinates were very knowledgeable and helpful - most had been there for years and years, they were always available to contact when required (highways departments especially for us). Over the years many of these fonts of knowledge retired, many not being replaced. What was a well oiled machine slowly started to seize up.

This is something that many industries will struggle with as times change and people doing one job for a long time ceases to be normal. What will have to happen is an improvement in documentation of things rather than a reliance on what's in someone's head, but there will be lots of growing pains along the way as it's a lesson that will have to be learnt individually.

 

You also get some of these old hands who don't really want to share their knowledge for various reasons.

[The Stationmaster]

Another point that came up today. When I worked for a London borough it and all other London boroughs employed an emergency planning officer, a post that apparently no longer exists in any borough. Though it sounds as if that person had very little to do for a lot of the time when you think of all the minor emergencies that happen every day such as burst water mains (every other day in London on average). The fact that the local council is behaving like a rabbit caught in the headlights is symptomatic of the lack of anyone to co-ordinate relief for the survivors, in fact there seems to be no provision at all for emergency planning.

 

I was under the impression - perhaps wrongly? - that the Emergency Planning legislation and requirement was still in place although in London there would possibly be the question of whether or not it lies with the Borough or the next layer of local Govt above.  The older plans with which I am familiar definitely included provision of 'temporary accommodation' but this actually means putting people somewhere in the immediate aftermath - i.e. a community centre etc and does not include rehousing (in fact I don't think there's anything in legislation relating to rehousing in the aftermath of an event such as this?).

 

As far as casualty bureau are concerned that normally rests with the police and it is essential that there is one central point into which all information is fed and collated.  In this case the bureau presumably has the tenant list (i read one complaint in the press that it had allegedly 'been take away from the council' well of course it would be handed over to the casualty bureau - how else can they even start their job?   But that of course opens a question as to whether or not it accurately reflects who is resident in the building and if there are discrepancies they will no doubt be both difficult and take time to resolve.  Equally anybody who had the very dubious 'pleasure' of seeing and entering the aftermath of a really serious fire will immediately realise the difficulty of both finding and identifying bodies and anything which might help to identify them.  It has to be done slowly and with painstaking thoroughness to avoid possibilities of misidentification (and giving people either false hope or unwelcome traumatic news) and it could, literally, take weeks in some cases especially if detailed post mortem examinations and obtaining such information as dental records are needed to help establish identities.  You simply cannot say 'we have found the body of (whom we assume to be) person X in Flat No XYZ'.

 

I'm sorry but the 'instant news and instant results' seeking generation has to give way to more traditional things, particularly time consuming thoroughness, in this case.

 

Incidentally picking up on Ian's point in Post 77 about the press report posted by Ivan it is indeed quite possible that the failure to contain the presumed initial fire by leaving the flat door open, however briefly, would have contributed to the propagation and spread of the fire and particularly to the smoke in the stairwell.  But again I think it is down to the experts to determine precisely what happened at the initial stage otherwise we risk adding another scapegoat (the person who broke the containment) to umpteen others.

[Reorte]

This is something that many industries will struggle with as times change and people doing one job for a long time ceases to be normal. What will have to happen is an improvement in documentation of things rather than a reliance on what's in someone's head, but there will be lots of growing pains along the way as it's a lesson that will have to be learnt individually.

Unfortunately documentation isn't a proper substitution. It's better than nothing, by a long way, but the experience where you get a feel for what's what and how things are best applied, when and where, the overall picture in your head about how everything fits together, that's very useful and can only be gained by experience. I'm worried what'll happen in my job when certain people who are nearing retirement leave, although we've got some others who are starting to enter the equivalent position having been there for a while. The problem is that it doesn't get planned for, you need overlaps of many, many years and the most anyone's deliberately thought of doing is a couple.

[The Stationmaster]

As far as gas supplies to high rise / multi occupancy buildings all service mains are fitted with emergency isolation valves which are clearly marked as such. In the North West local fire services were shown the location of such isolation valves on regular site visits, as well as being provided with plans. These valves are generally  located underground adjacent to the pipe entry into the building, (which could be underground to an internal riser or riser pipes fitted externally).

 

As to such pipes and (the recent) application of exterior cladding, I am not conversant with any current gas safety regulations as I retired years ago.

 

I'm not a personal fan of gas in high rise flats, having been called out on more than one occasion to a smell of gas in flat, cause was usually an unlit cooker turned on. Forced entry to the flat, (if warden not present) gas off at the meter and windows open to ventilate solved the problem. I once had a leak on a shaft riser which was immediately isolated and all flats evacuated until the shaft was ventilated and checked free of gas. A pig of a job to repair, eventually the whole block (and several adjacent ones) had all gas pipes completely renewed with exterior riser pipes at immense cost to "British Gas" as it was known back then.

 

Many tower blocks have automatic constant gas monitoring equipment linked to a central warden's office, especially if the rising gas main is in a duct / shaft. 

 

I don't know about the Grenfell Tower, seems to have had a gas riser main fitted during the recent refurb in the stairwell. Any such pipe will be of steel construction. Service off takes to the flats would be steel pipes also.

 

The gas industry always took (and hopefully still does) gas safety as a No.1 priority, Cost never came into it as far as safety was concerned.

 

The weak link though was the customer - like the one mentioned above who left a cooker on / unlit when they left the flat.

 

I hope these comments are useful. Gas is safe, even in tower blocks, but needs treating with respect.

 

Brit15

 

There was a picture shown on the tv news the other night which purported to show the new gas riser in Grenfell Tower - it was painted black and appeared to be steel.  However it was sited in the access corridor to the doorway of one of the flats immediately next to the door of one.  What I found more than a little worrying was that the two entry doors to flats which were visible in the photo were completely different from each other - almost suggesting that one of them had been installed (by whoever) because 'it looked more attractive' which posed the question in mind as to which, if either, of the doors visible (including the more attractive upvc faced one) was in compliance with Building Regulations and the fire containment requirement?

[Ceptic]

It would be very interesting to understand which body actually has duties and powers in respect of planning for and coordinating the "post event" response in London. The role of the Borough may in law be quite limited, given the existence of LFEPA (London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority) under the Greater London Authority. There is a tendency to think that the LFEPA has no more duties than to govern the fire brigade, but I'm pretty sure that it does have more.

 

However, the GLA Acts seem to talk about the authority, without actually defining its duties and powers, and lead back into the Local Authority Act 1985, which only talks about Fire and civil defence (hence the old LFCDA title) ........ where do the duties and powers around "emergency planning" derive from ..... or is that just a couple of undefined words?

 

Do we have a local government legal expert here present?

 

Kevin

 

I doubt it.

If it were possible, who, here, would qualify for 'Legal Aid' ?

[Nearholmer]

Ceptic

 

Well, we have experts on practically every known subject on RMWeb, so why not that subject.

 

Although, I'm anything but sure I fully catch your drift, since legal aid has absolutely nothing to do with the duties of the LFEPA. Can you be plainer?

 

K

['CHARD]

According to this mornings news 58 people are unaccounted for. With those deaths already known this will put the death toll at 80-90 persons.

 

For reasons I am unable to fathom*, the 58 'missing' includes the 30 already declared dead.

 

 

* not publicly anyway

[lapford34102]

It's to do with identification of the casualties.

Stu

[PatB]

Whilst I don't expect politicians of any level of government to be competent or expert in any technical (or otherwise) field, it would be nice if one or two showed that they had, at least, paid attention in high school science and technical classes. It's all very well saying that they can be advised by experts, but it can be a bit difficult when you are one of those experts and find that you are attempting to explain to someone who might as well be a five-year-old in terms of grasping basic concepts.

[kevinlms]

Whilst I don't expect politicians of any level of government to be competent or expert in any technical (or otherwise) field, it would be nice if one or two showed that they had, at least, paid attention in high school science and technical classes. It's all very well saying that they can be advised by experts, but it can be a bit difficult when you are one of those experts and find that you are attempting to explain to someone who might as well be a five-year-old in terms of grasping basic concepts.

Yes, but politicians are predominately Lawyers or Union officials, depending on which side of the fence.

[jjb1970]

I'm sorry but the 'instant news and instant results' seeking generation has to give way to more traditional things, particularly time consuming thoroughness, in this case.

That's probably the best and most succinct summary of the current media and political circus I've read. The tragedy of the tower fire is unspeakably heart breaking, I am finding the media and political circus reprehensible and nauseating.