fire in London tower block

[The Stationmaster]

A bit of information on fridge fires (if it was a  fridge fire) from the LFB in 2015.  To quote the link 'there is on average more than one fridge/freezer fire a week in the capital'  (another source has stated 260 in the 5 years up to mid 2015) and attention was drawn elsewhere in the press to a particular risk with pre 2007 Beko models.

 

No doubt somebody will soon be asking where the fridge came from and who supplied it (And if they are so dangerous why are they permitted in high rise buildings?)?

 

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_Fridgefreezerdelayputtinglivesatrisk.asp#.WUQJjBQ4mCk

Edited June 16, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Oldddudders]

We don't know the cause? I was under the impression that a distraught male survivor living on the fourth floor stated that his fridge had exploded, causing a fire in his flat. Did the media make that up?

And now Ivan's posting, albeit from a newspaper, quotes three separate witnesses to the alarm being raised by the man with the fridge, all being residents on the same fourth floor, while a separate witness, in the affected flat when the fridge event happened, confirms the facts.

 

Another fact, corroborated by many, is the speed of the fire racing up the building, initially not unconnected in my supposition, by the flat concerned having the door left open, as confirmed by the female neighbour, who could see the fire inside. This was the fourth floor, and the draught from the stairwell would be substantial.

 

I am no fire engineer but those facts are good enough for me.

[Reorte]

Can someone more in the know tell me whether the building / fire regs for the sort of work that was done on the block are along the lines of "this material is approved for use..." or "this material has these properties, those considering using it have the responsibility for deciding whether it's suitable or not."

[RANGERS]

There would seem to be, as might not be unexpected, several 'stories' abroad on this sort of thing.  No doubt the council is inundated but they have said they have three centres in operation offering assistance and dealing with rehousing and so on - and people are not always going to them (quite how people are supposed to find out they exist and where they are is of course another matter),

 

You miss the point, the lady in question here had already been in contact with the Council and was waiting a response. If a woman with three kids can't elicit a response from them which gives some sort of priority, it doesn't give much confidence for anyone quite frankly. This isn't politics, its a simple fact that in this, the richest borough in what we like to think of as a civilised country,  this woman can't get the same roof over her and her three kid's heads.

 

The response from the community, the country as a whole, has been pretty spectacular but can we as a country take any pride in that poor woman's plight. I'd like to hope that hers is an isolated case but even one is too many.

[phil-b259]

Can someone more in the know tell me whether the building / fire regs for the sort of work that was done on the block are along the lines of "this material is approved for use..." or "this material has these properties, those considering using it have the responsibility for deciding whether it's suitable or not."

 

From the BBC

 

"Rydon, the company that carried out the £8.6m refurbishment of the tower, welcomed the public inquiry, but said it had met all building and fire regulations, plus health and safety standards"

 

Without knowing exactly what they used, how it was installed then we cannot know how truthful this statement is - though I doubt the company would deliberately install something they knew was dangerous per say.

 

Whether those regulations (which are ultimately decided by politicians through legislation) were fit for purpose however.....

Edited June 16, 2017 by phil-b259

[Titan]

A bit of information on fridge fires (if it was a  fridge fire) from the LFB in 2015.  To quote the link 'there is on average more than one fridge/freezer fire a week in the capital'  (another source has stated 260 in the 5 years up to mid 2015) and attention was drawn elsewhere in the press to a particular risk with pre 2007 Beko models.

 

No doubt somebody will soon be asking where the fridge came from and who supplied it (And if they are so dangerous why are they permitted in high rise buildings?)?

 

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_Fridgefreezerdelayputtinglivesatrisk.asp#.WUQJjBQ4mCk

 

Having bought a beko fridge freezer in the timescale mentioned, I just checked the model number.... Luckily it is not one of those affected...

[Colin_McLeod]

What I find particularly sad is that there appears to have been time to get everyone out if evacuation had commenced as soon as the fire was discovered.

 

RIP. Get well soon.

[PhilJ W]

Another point that came up today. When I worked for a London borough it and all other London boroughs employed an emergency planning officer, a post that apparently no longer exists in any borough. Though it sounds as if that person had very little to do for a lot of the time when you think of all the minor emergencies that happen every day such as burst water mains (every other day in London on average). The fact that the local council is behaving like a rabbit caught in the headlights is symptomatic of the lack of anyone to co-ordinate relief for the survivors, in fact there seems to be no provision at all for emergency planning.

[Nimbus]

The aftermath for the survivors appears to be being handled woefully. There appears to be no disaster recovery plan, however generalised, to work from. In the days when the UK was a grubbier place, we had a Civil Defence Corps, who would undoubtedly have been drafted in, rather than have the effort led by ad-hoc volunteers from the affected community.

 

The Nim.

 

[snap! Phil JW's came in while I was typing]

Edited June 16, 2017 by Nimbus

[Legend]

It's good that the government putting funding into help these poor people but I think it also needs to put someone in charge to coordinate the effort. The disaster was horrific, but I don't think officialdom is covering itself in glory with the aftermath. Yes I can appreciate it can't be easy rehousing large numbers of people , but we must do better than this.

 

One priceless snippet from Question Time last night was that all hotels have to have sprinklers , but not high rises. I appreciate that sprinklers might not stop fire travelling up the outside of the building, but even if it gave people a bit more time to get out it would have been worth it.

 

They are saying installing sprinklers will not be cheap and cause disruption. Well how much is a life worth? I think the mood of the country will insist on this in tower blocks .

 

Just watched 10 o'clock news with the Doctor who treated the injured. He lost it at the end of the interview. What a hero doing what he could to save lives, along with all the fire fighters . True sincerity. Compare that with some politicians whose media trained responses are a bit trite

Edited June 16, 2017 by Legend

[Dava]

When it comes to rehoming people, how many unoccupied flats & houses are there in Kensington and Chelsea, and how many owned by absent foreign interests [eg Arab & Russian funk holes]? Can and should local authorities have powers to compulsorily make these empty properties available for emergency housing? Would this not be popular and reasonable?

 

A quick search showed 1200+ in Kensington/Chelsea and 20000 in London. The housing crisis is soluble if we stop treating housing as an asset class rather than a human & social need.

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/11/map-reveals-shocking-number-of-empty-homes-across-london-6630121/

 

Dava

Edited June 16, 2017 by Dava

[Horsetan]

When it comes to rehoming people, how many unoccupied flats & houses are there in Kensington and Chelsea, and how many owned by absent foreign interests [eg Arab & Russian funk holes]? Can and should local authorities have powers to compulsorily make these empty properties available for emergency housing? Would this not be popular and reasonable?...

JC seems to have had the same idea....

 

[Dava]

The Indy & Eveneing Standard have picked the proposal up as well. Wouldn't it be, like, 'taking back control' of our country & housing?

 

The levy on empty homes in London has not worked, obviously not high enough.

 

Dava

[Horsetan]

...Wouldn't it be, like, 'taking back control' of our country & housing?

 

Why not just confiscate it? After all, that's what it is. And we all hate these faceless foreign investors who launder their money here, don't we?

[DougN]

Wise words from James on the previous page.

 

A couple of things are coming out that suggest the building code in the UK is about to get an up grade.

 

Sprinklers it is a fact and researched area that they save lives. As I said earlier from my knowledge no one has died of fire in a sprinklered building. Any one to suggest other wise, please provide the link to the article I am genuinely interested.

 

Windows and more specifically the glass will always fail in a fire event. There is no such thing as fire resistant glass. Wired glass as seen in the uk fire doors will fail relatively slowly compared to a clear sheet. This is evidenced by the windows falling out of the structure on the videos of this building and any other burnt out building the windows are the first to blow out. This is due to the expansion of the brittle glass in the frame that constrains it. Therefore the only "relief " is to break.

 

The fridge source of ignition. Incredibly important. The next question is how did this escape the fire compartment. There was a comment from a neighbour who saw it was the front door. My question is the door to have a door closer and why wasn't it working? (As an aside all fire doors here in Australia must have a tested and rated door closer and be operational)

 

Here's another current research item. Most people's homes are now filled with higher flammability items as clothing, furniture curtains, less so carpets but definitely rugs are various types of plastics. This is changing the fire load and intensity to the event. They tend to burn hotter and more quickly than 40 years ago. They also tend to pile and stick to shelves and walls increasing the penetration through to the structure.

[OnTheBranchline]

It's sad that improvements for health and safety are always reactive than proactive. It has to be proven to be a danger before something is done.

[sulzer27jd]

What I find particularly sad is that there appears to have been time to get everyone out if evacuation had commenced as soon as the fire was discovered.

 

RIP. Get well soon.

 

That is the whole point. These buildings are designed so that you do not evacuate everyone, any time there is a fridge on fire. 

[chris p bacon]

A couple of years ago I built a 2 bed house which had to have a sprinkler system as it was down a long narrow driveway.  Because sprinklers need a consistent and high volume flow the water main to the property was twice the size for just 5 rooms and you have very good to high water pressure.

So for something like a 20+ storey building such as this I don't think it is straightforward to retrofit, water is already going to be pumped but the sprinkler system would demand very high volumes.

 

Regarding building regs, we are inspected thoroughly, Fire and fire doors are a closely monitored part of the regs, they're fitted with closers but people tend to remove them or wedge them shortly after occupation.

[sulzer27jd]

Wise words from James on the previous page.

 

A couple of things are coming out that suggest the building code in the UK is about to get an up grade.

 

Sprinklers it is a fact and researched area that they save lives. As I said earlier from my knowledge no one has died of fire in a sprinklered building. Any one to suggest other wise, please provide the link to the article I am genuinely interested.

 

Windows and more specifically the glass will always fail in a fire event. There is no such thing as fire resistant glass. Wired glass as seen in the uk fire doors will fail relatively slowly compared to a clear sheet. This is evidenced by the windows falling out of the structure on the videos of this building and any other burnt out building the windows are the first to blow out. This is due to the expansion of the brittle glass in the frame that constrains it. Therefore the only "relief " is to break.

 

The fridge source of ignition. Incredibly important. The next question is how did this escape the fire compartment. There was a comment from a neighbour who saw it was the front door. My question is the door to have a door closer and why wasn't it working? (As an aside all fire doors here in Australia must have a tested and rated door closer and be operational)

 

Here's another current research item. Most people's homes are now filled with higher flammability items as clothing, furniture curtains, less so carpets but definitely rugs are various types of plastics. This is changing the fire load and intensity to the event. They tend to burn hotter and more quickly than 40 years ago. They also tend to pile and stick to shelves and walls increasing the penetration through to the structure.

 

I believe it remains the case that worldwide there is not a recorded case of a domestic fire death in a sprinkler fitted building.

 

It is not the case that glass will always fail. In fact, it is very common in a domestic house fire for glass to remain intact, or for at least one pain of double glazing to remain intact. This has led to very significant changes in operational procedures for the fire service over the last number of years as firefighters now have to contend with entering a far more dangerous compartment in comparison with one that has vented.

 

The original source is actually not all that important. It simply did not cause this to turn from a routine domestic incident to a major disaster. Tower blocks will not be made safer by safety inspections of fridges. The comments about fire loading also miss the point, that incidents involving apartments in multi-storey blocks are - unfortunately - a daily occurrence yet do not lead to the sort of conflagration that was witnessed in London. Fire loading makes things difficult for firefighters, changes the way they tackle a blaze, but should not, under any circumstances lead to an internal compartment breach - that is spreading to another apartment.

[Colin_McLeod]

That is the whole point. These buildings are designed so that you do not evacuate everyone, any time there is a fridge on fire.

Well perhaps they should as this case demonstrates that sometimes the design does not work.

 

My strongly held view is if the building you are in is on fire then get the hell out of there into the open air. Never mind any standing instruction or contemporary advice to stay put.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[raymw]

How many people in the building? I think there were 127 apartments, say three per residence. How do you organise 450 or so residents, many of whom are elderly, young, infirm, not English speaking, to safely evacuate down a single flight of stairs, perhaps when the fire brigade is trying to go up the same stairs to get to the seat of the fire? Would you want to evacuate them for a relatively small fire, easily contained? The fundamental design of these tower blocks is flawed, if emergency mass exodus is desired, for whatever reason.

[sulzer27jd]

Well perhaps they should as this case demonstrates that sometimes the design does not work.

 

My strongly held view is if the building you are in is on fire then get the hell out of there into the open air. Never mind any standing instruction or contemporary advice to stay put.

 

Fine if you are able-bodied, young enough and fit enough to use the stairs as the fire service will require the lift. And they will also require the use of the stairs as well for that matter, for two floors below the fire floor. 

 

Additionally, in order to evacuate an entire tower block, every flat would need to be linked to the alarm. The result of that is that you would end up evacuating hundreds of people every time someone burned their toast. I think you need to take account of the overall safety record of multi-storey flats before jumping to conclusions. This catastrophe was not caused by a fire started by a fridge. Nor was it even the result of a well-developed fire in a flat. These should never get beyond being routine incidents for the fire service. 

 

We all need to take account of the many thousands of families who are tonight asleep in apartments in multi-storey blocks and who are no doubt frightened by people saying their homes are not safe and giving contradictory advice. If they follow simple safety advice - which every fire service will offer free of charge to anyone (in any property type) - they can reduce their chance of having a fire and they are at no greater risk from fire than anyone else. What must also happen though - and urgently - is that any external cladding must be checked to ensure its suitability.

[Bert Cheese]

Not sure what the fridge concerned was (if proved relevant) but the latest trend in domestic refrigeration is the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants, as they are naturally occurring and have little or no ozone depletion or global warming qualities which the industry is heavily monitored for...unfortunately they are flammable and potentially explosive in a fault situation with several cases of exploding fridges being reported in recent times.

Have a look on the back of your fridge for: R290 (Propane) R600a (Isobutane) or R1270 (Propylene) for example...given the choice I'd rather stick with an HFC like R134a when buying.

[Dagworth]

From the BBC

 

"Rydon, the company that carried out the £8.6m refurbishment of the tower, welcomed the public inquiry, but said it had met all building and fire regulations, plus health and safety standards"

 

Without knowing exactly what they used, how it was installed then we cannot know how truthful this statement is - though I doubt the company would deliberately install something they knew was dangerous per say.

 

Whether those regulations (which are ultimately decided by politicians through legislation) were fit for purpose however.....

Might want to revisit that post Phil, 

 

BBC now updated the story thus

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40301289

 

"Rydon, the contractor responsible for the renovation of the tower, said its work "met all required building control, fire regulation, and health and safety standards".

 

It later issued a new statement, removing the previous mention of the building meeting fire regulation standards, instead saying the project met "all required building regulations".

 

Andi

[kevinlms]

Kevin I think you may have jumped in on this a bit too quickly. As this is something I am acutely aware off and well qualified in. The cladding system because that is what it is, is quite complex as the acm is a large and varied material. The problem here in the lacrosse building was the supplier was specified by the developer which was provided to the building surveyor! So is the builder at fault? As they only followed the documentation they were contracted to supply!

 

One thing I am stunned at is the lack of a fire sprinkler system in the building. I doubt there is any buildings over 5 stories here in Australia that have yet to be fitted or fitted during construction. There is a statistic that 95% of fires in a sprinklered building are put out by 1 sprinkler head or 99.99998% are put out by 2 heads. The most important thing is since the invention of the sprinklers as we know them, there has been no loss of life due to fire in a sprinklered building. Now this is all from memory and uni was 20 years ago!

 

My simpathies are with those effected and from a professional point of view I am interested in the causes and end ramifications for the built environment in the uk. I doubt that there will be any effects to the Australian industry due to this as it has already been modified and discussed at length between the professional institutes of AIBS (Aust, bldg, surveyo) AIB (Aust. Insititue of Building) RAIA, Engineers Australia, AIQS.

Hi Doug

 

Sorry to take so long to respond to your comments. I knew I had read something about the Lacrosse building (in Melbourne) and its cladding. This has appeared to today's Age.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/former-fire-chief-says-lacrosse-tower-is-unsafe-20170616-gwsuld.html

 

"The imported Chinese cladding installed on the Lacrosse building was tested by the CSIRO and found to be so combustible that the test was abandoned at 93 seconds due to fear excessive flaming and smoking would damage equipment."

 

 

So the CSIRO had to abort the test after 93 seconds, because they feared damaging their test equipment? On the face of it, a totally unsuitable material has been used. Further the article goes on to state, that nothing has happened regarding its removal to date (ordered so in October 2015), because of ongoing appeals. The problem is obvious, no one wants to pay for the removal & replacement.