Unusual workings of the Midland Blue Pullman sets

[chrisf]

A power car at each end and it still needed banked up the lickey? Must have been a useless train!

 

It is not so long since a Pacer needed assistance up the Lickey.  Must have been a useless train ...

 

Chris

[stovepipe]

The 8-car set was 364 tons in working order, or 5.5hp per ton. Some suburban DMUs had more than that!

[russ p]

A shame the plan to fit the power cars with Dart gas turbines didn't go ahead

[TravisM]

A shame the plan to fit the power cars with Dart gas turbines didn't go ahead

 

Still wouldn't have improved the ride, that, the introduction of A/C Mk II's and small fleet killed them off.  Nice to have seen them reach the Western Region HST era to get a comparison. 

 

Julian Sprott

[rodent279]

Still wouldn't have improved the ride, that, the introduction of A/C Mk II's and small fleet killed them off.  Nice to have seen them reach the Western Region HST era to get a comparison. 

 

Julian Sprott

 

They were about 10 years too late really. If they'd appeared in the early 50's then they would perhaps have had more of a place, and a more respectable working life. By the time HST's arrived, the Pullman as a fixed formation or semi-permanent rake was starting to lose it's commercial viability.

I well remember the electric Manchester Pullman, even went on it once, but in all honesty, apart from at-seat service, and fancy wood panelling, it didn't offer much that a 1st class Mk2 D/E/F or Mk3 didn't.

[Pete the Elaner]

A power car at each end and it still needed banked up the lickey? Must have been a useless train!

Needed haulage over the South Devon banks because of a risk of their traction motors overheating too.

Designed for 100mph running but could only ever do 90 because they were not powerful enough.

A 'Premium'. Train whose ride quality was easily beaten by a Mk1 on Commonweath bogies.

 

With regards to failing to do what they were designed for, these must have been the biggest technical failure on BR since Leader.

 

Is it just me or was the Blue Pullman also the most ugly thing ever to run on BR metals?

[Karhedron]

Is it just me or was the Blue Pullman also the most ugly thing ever to run on BR metals?

Only after they were defaced with MU cables and that awful grey livery. The original nanking blue sets were rather handsome IMHO but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Holmesfeldian]

On 13/07/2017 at 17:54, Enterprisingwestern said:

22/3/69.

2 x 6 car sets.

West Bromwich Albion supporters special, for the FA cup semi final.

Sheffield Midland.

 

Mike.

this one …

[cctransuk]

On 17/07/2017 at 08:21, Pete the Elaner said:

Needed haulage over the South Devon banks because of a risk of their traction motors overheating too.

Designed for 100mph running but could only ever do 90 because they were not powerful enough.

A 'Premium'. Train whose ride quality was easily beaten by a Mk1 on Commonweath bogies.

 

With regards to failing to do what they were designed for, these must have been the biggest technical failure on BR since Leader.

 

Is it just me or was the Blue Pullman also the most ugly thing ever to run on BR metals?

 

The BPs were designed to fill a short-term need - to provide high-speed premium services between London and Manchester, and London and Birmingham - during the period when the West Coast mainline was being upgraded / electrified.

 

From that perspective, I would suggest that they did exactly what it said on the tin!

 

Given; the bogies / suspension specified could have been a lot better, but they were only ever intended for fast service on relatively flat routes.

 

That they were not up to scratch when used on routes having considerable gradients is not really relevant - they were not designed for such work.

 

CJI.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

The BPs were designed to fill a short-term need - to provide high-speed premium services between London and Manchester, and London and Birmingham - during the period when the West Coast mainline was being upgraded / electrified.

 

From that perspective, I would suggest that they did exactly what it said on the tin!

 

Given; the bogies / suspension specified could have been a lot better, but they were only ever intended for fast service on relatively flat routes.

 

That they were not up to scratch when used on routes having considerable gradients is not really relevant - they were not designed for such work.

 

CJI.

 

"I would suggest that they did exactly what it said on the tin!"

I find that comment really funny because they did exactly the opposite.

What part of running slower than designed (on any route - they were limited to 90 everywhere) & providing a rough ride at speed met the requirements of "Fast luxury travel".

 

They did prove the concept of a lightweight power car at each end, successfully used by the HST. 

 

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

"I would suggest that they did exactly what it said on the tin!"

I find that comment really funny because they did exactly the opposite.

What part of running slower than designed (on any route - they were limited to 90 everywhere) & providing a rough ride at speed met the requirements of "Fast luxury travel".

 

They did prove the concept of a lightweight power car at each end, successfully used by the HST. 

 

 

Glad to have provided some passing amusement!

 

Nonetheless, I would not have cared to experience 90+ mph on the Midland Mainline through the Derby Dales. 90mph was considered fast back in the day and, as a company executive, one had to have time to consume a hearty 'Full English' before taking on the trials of the day ahead.

 

It is difficult now to put oneself in the mindset of the 1960s. BR were not trying to prove any concepts - let alone a future HST - which was itself seen very much as a stop-gap in the lead-up to the APT.

 

The temporary unavailability of the WCML promised to lose BR their lucrative executive market to the airlines. The BPs were a quick response to this threat, and there was no time to develop cutting-edge technology - just an effective competitor to air travel, using existing technology.

 

I was there at the time, and can assure you that the BPs were, for their time, considered luxury train travel - for all their technical shortcomings.

 

CJI.

[roythebus1]

Reminds me, I must get my Kitmaster set finished!!

 

ISTR a BP set being used for a trip on the PAdd-OOC shuttle for an open day back in the 1970s. I had a look inside the set at OOC and still have the souvenir ticket somewhere.

[hexagon789]

12 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

"I would suggest that they did exactly what it said on the tin!"

I find that comment really funny because they did exactly the opposite.

What part of running slower than designed (on any route - they were limited to 90 everywhere) & providing a rough ride at speed met the requirements of "Fast luxury travel".

 

They did prove the concept of a lightweight power car at each end, successfully used by the HST. 

 

Nowhere permitted anything faster than 90 when they were introduced.

 

The MML was 90mph until 1982.

The GWML was 90mph (it had been nominally unrestricted until 1960) until 1966.

Even the ECML and WCML ionly had some 100mph sections introduced from 1964.

[stovepipe]

They were designed for gradients - the long stretches of 1/90 and 1/100 on the Midland route through the Peak District for instance.

 

That they needed piloting over the South Devon banks is neither here or there - many things did in those days. And without having been load tested on the route before, caution would no doubt have prevailed. The load limit for 2000hp over the Devon banks was around 400 tons, and an 8-car set is pretty close to that.

Edited September 9, 2023 by stovepipe

[The Stationmaster]

They very obviously werte designed for gradients.  The Midland mainline had gradients aplenty as did the routes they were used over from new on the WR including the long climb out of the bottom of the Severn Tunnel with 7 miles of very steep gradients up to Patchway followed by 13 miles rising at 1 in 300 for almost the entire distance up to Badminton.

 

As noted by 'Stovepipe' any need for assistance over certain Soiuth Devon banks is irrelevant.  the trains were not designed to tackle the like sof Dainton which was as steep as 1 in 33 in one place.  And don't forget that in later years even the mighty HSTs had to be assisted from Newton Abbot if they were only running on one engine.

 

CJL has got it fairly accurate with 'they did what it said on the tin.  Their big shortcoming was the poor ride in every vehicle except the power cars but that was really before BR engineers had fully developed their ideas on matching bogie performance to British track and it is noticeable that plenty of far more recent trains/vehicles with foreign designed bogies haven't exactly sparkled when run on British track.  In terms of interior fit and level of passenger service they definitely did what was required of them and they were a big jump ahead of contemporary mainline trains.

 

Interestingly many people I knew who had to travel to meetings etc, or were working away from home, invariab;ly opted to travel ona one oof the Pullmans whenever it nearly fitted their schedule.  I regularly travelled up on one from Cardiff on a Friday afternoon when was working there 'on loan' for a couple of months in the late 1960s.  We couldn't claim the Supplement back although we could claim for food and being in 2nd Class meant making sure we got seats in the power car which ensured a really good ride - far better than the rest of the train, and the High Tea was top notch.

 

But they had one other big failing and that was the engines  - or rather the engines supplying the traction motors - which were NBL  built MAN 1,000hp units.  Apart from the usual MAN reputation for oil throwing they had the typical NBL built reputation for being less than reliable.  So on the WR the trains carried a Fitter in addition to the Driver.  Working well there were no troubles and timekeeping was not a problem - in fact avoiding running early was the problem.  On the occasion in the early 1970s when I had a cab ride up from Cardiff the Driver was able to regain enough time from Patchway to Wootton Bassett to jump into a space in the timetable ahead of the daytime Bristol Pullman (instead of following it as booked) and thus arrive at Paddington well before time.

 

So some troubles notwithstanding I think they were along way from being 'BR's biggest technical failure'.  I knew of a couple of very sensitive areas of track on the GWML on eof which involved a distinct reversal; of super elevation with some twist thrown in g for good measure.  Go over it on a Brush Type and you began to wonder if it wiud roll clean off the track; a Hymek rode through like a really good passenger coach and the BP power car did more or less the same.  I can readily wotrk out how it would feel today under an IET if it were still there and it would not be at all comfortable as they're bad enough on pointwork at the  best of tines.  Oddly it never seemed to bring complaints from BP passengers.

[keefer]

57 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

far more recent trains/vehicles with foreign designed bogies haven't exactly sparkled when run on British track

Even the Mk4s had a bit of a saga with the Swiss SIG bogies, as built. Much subsequent modification was required with dampers, rotating the bogies 180⁰, coupling dampers etc.

I remember someone on here explaining that an added complication was needing to 'stiffen' the bogies more than was intended (or they were stiffer anyway), to ensure the coaches stayed within the kinematic envelope at 140mph.

The BREL T4 was possibly the better bogie up to a certain speed but would allow too much body movement at full whack (it was something like that, I forget the full details).

And of course the irony being the 91+Mk4 sets never managed 140mph in normal service anyway.

[russ p]

42 minutes ago, keefer said:

Even the Mk4s had a bit of a saga with the Swiss SIG bogies, as built. Much subsequent modification was required with dampers, rotating the bogies 180⁰, coupling dampers etc.

I remember someone on here explaining that an added complication was needing to 'stiffen' the bogies more than was intended (or they were stiffer anyway), to ensure the coaches stayed within the kinematic envelope at 140mph.

The BREL T4 was possibly the better bogie up to a certain speed but would allow too much body movement at full whack (it was something like that, I forget the full details).

And of course the irony being the 91+Mk4 sets never managed 140mph in normal service anyway.

 

I remember when the mk4 came out I wasn't too impressed with the ride , I rode on one back from York last week and thought it's far better than 800s or stadlers 

[keefer]

Found the thread & post I remembered:

Bomag said:

"At the time of introduction I regularly talked to colleague in RCE Eastern who bemoaned the problems in respect of the limitations on felting the track due to the limited capability of the overhead to accommodate vehicle movement (even more than those I dealt with on the GEML). The maximum permissible kinematic vehicle movement on the ECML was apparently less than that for a T4 at 140 mph. The SIG bogies had less dynamic movement at 140mph than the T4; to do this they needed to be stiffer. The upshot was that when running at 125mph the ride was worse than a T4 and even worse than a BT10 in areas where track geometry was 'challenging'. I was told that by turning the bogies round 180 degrees and modifying the dampers etc they got the ride to something closer to the T4 but limited the stock to 125 mph."

From: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/141261-ecml-electrification-class-91-fleet-march-2019-service-of-30-years/

 

[adb968008]

No ones mention the famous working of 28th Jan 1967 when a set ran into Bury Bolton Street when Bury FC were playing Walsall in the FA Cup. 1z55 / 1z56 were the codes.

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk

Edited September 15, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

On 09/09/2023 at 19:32, russ p said:

 

I remember when the mk4 came out I wasn't too impressed with the ride , I rode on one back from York last week and thought it's far better than 800s or stadlers 

The ride on an IET 8XX) is not all that wonderful in my exoerience and there's one heck of a racket when they go over pointwork at speed.  This week I've had rides on 387s at 110mph in the GWML on the Main Lines east of Slough and it's definitely better than an IET

[rodent279]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The ride on an IET 8XX) is not all that wonderful in my exoerience and there's one heck of a racket when they go over pointwork at speed.  This week I've had rides on 387s at 110mph in the GWML on the Main Lines east of Slough and it's definitely better than an IET

To be fair, compared to a mk3, or a MK2 on well maintained B4's, most things compare unfavourably. But I'd agree 800's do seem rough .

[jim.snowdon]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The ride on an IET 8XX) is not all that wonderful in my exoerience and there's one heck of a racket when they go over pointwork at speed.  This week I've had rides on 387s at 110mph in the GWML on the Main Lines east of Slough and it's definitely better than an IET

That's potentially the effect of going from inclined rail on the plain track to vertical rail through the S&C. It may not seem much but it results on a small but significant difference in the gauge between contact points, sufficient to alter the dynamic behaviour of the bogie at high speed by dropping the critical speed for yaw instability. It's not a new phenomenon, nor is it confined to the 8xx trains.

 

[Matt37268]

On 15/09/2023 at 21:38, adb968008 said:

No ones mention the famous working of 28th Jan 1967 when a set ran into Bury Bolton Street when Bury FC were playing Walsall in the FA Cup. 1z55 / 1z56 were the codes.

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk

This one doesn’t prove anything! 

[adb968008]

20 minutes ago, Matt37268 said:

This one doesn’t prove anything! 

That’s your your problem.

 

there was a picture sold on ebay with copyright a few years back, but it sold for good money.

[stovepipe]

On 15/09/2023 at 21:38, adb968008 said:

No ones mention the famous working of 28th Jan 1967 when a set ran into Bury Bolton Street when Bury FC were playing Walsall in the FA Cup. 1z55 / 1z56 were the codes.

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk

 

Also West Hartlepool on a Rugby special from Coventry for the Durham v Warwickshire County Final, 13th March 1965.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by stovepipe