Signalling for modellers who don't know much about signalling

[Junctionmad]

Gentlemen

As a not-MIRSE, can I please court trouble?

I think that you are falling into a trap common among experts, which is to attempt to deal with every nuance, exception, if, but, maybe, local variation etc, etc, and in so doing are likely to 'blind with science' all innocent amateurs.

I strongly contend that "classic" block signalling, using semaphores, 'a la mode Britannique', is not complicated, and that, if you were to start with TYPICAL practice, using a few TYPICAL examples, which would be of relevance to a great number of railway modellers, much mystery might be dispelled, quite quickly.

After all, who is better qualified to explain something fairly simple, clearly, so that a raw novice can understand it, than a group of people who know very well what they are talking about?

If it helps, you could add a caveat to each posting, along the lines: what follows represents TYPICAL practice across all railways signalled according to 'classic' British block-signalling practice from c1890s onwards, and should not be read to apply to any particular location or date.

Kevin

PS: leave out shunting signals altogether, until the foundations are laid ...... they seem to have been applied on a "garnish according to taste" basis anyway.

Absolutely agree. within say semaphore signalling , it's entirely possible to describe a generic signalling approach that would suit modellers approaching the subject for the first time and trying to place signals on a layout that's not prototypical.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry to be asking questions from a few posts back.

 

Mike, please bear with me, but I don't understand that one.  I understand that in the "typical station layout" that the Block Section/Station Limits for this Block Post run from signal 2 to 3 UP and from 12 to 11 Down.  I quite understand that railway signals are not traffic lights, so a train running to WTT may stop at a passenger platform for passengers to alight/join regardless of what signals are there and where the platform might be in a Section, and that because a signal at or near the end of a platform is "clear" it merely means that the line ahead has been set clear in conjunction with the box ahead and does not mean that a train due to stop should simply pass through the station.  This is emphasized by the down platform where the signal is considerably in advance of the marked passenger platform end.

 

SO we now have the situation that an UP train which has been accepted into the Block after passengers have alighted etc. has been held at signal 3 because clearance has not been obtained from the Block Post ahead.  I presume this would be in order, since that move into this block (station limits) would allow the preceding block to be cleared for a following train. It was being suggested that a shunting move could take place from the Up yard to the Down line as controlled by ground signal 10 whilst this train was held at 3.  You said this would be OK BUT that signal 3 would be locked by that move, and would be unable to be released until the shunt move was complete (and points/signals reset).

 

NOW I can understand that 2 would be locked since any approaching train would otherwise run into the shunting move (or move off from the platform into the shunting move).  But why 3? It would only be cleared when the next block was clear.  Or is it the case that a train would not be accepted into this block unless the next block were clear - hence both 3 and then 2 would be cleared, so the train would rest at the platform when there had been no acceptance from the block ahead.

 

I am running to get behind the sofa right now .............!

 

I haven't bothered to read ahead so this might have been answered.  It is a very logical question but it takes us into the realms of interlocking and that is why Signal 3 would potentially be locked at danger.  So nothing to do with the block working but purely down to interlocking (and we'd better not tread too deeply into that).

[PaulRhB]

As I suggested quite a while back a selection of typical annotated diagrams chosen with modellers in mind would be best as it's much easier to see where they go than work it out from text. If I had the time I'd start off but it's a lot of work which is why the existing books already linked to are the best current source.

At its simplest, signals to start from platforms, protect both sides of junctions and hold trains outside while waiting for a platform or siding.

The main thing though is to proof read it so what's published is correct. This is where Simons book and the existing ones are better organised and don't have the distractions of a growing thread.

I think the reason 'how do I signal this?' Has become the status quo on forums is because it works with all the variations and it's much faster to answer one with appropriate diagrams than cater for a general guide of several pages.

A few years ago you would have no option but to research it all or pay someone, you now have a load of experts of varying degrees who help for free

[The Stationmaster]

Having read some of the posts in this topic it seems to me that there are too potentially irreconcilable positions being taken.

 

On the one hand we have the professionals - they know the full complexities of railway signalling and can explain all the background with reference to the block system, interlocking etc etc

 

On the other there is a modeller who wants to make his signalling look convincing, including the aspects it shows BUT...

 

Doesn't have a block system 

May well have only one signal box

Has no interlocking

 

Now it seems to me that that modeller can quite legitimately ask where do I put what signals on my Caledonian BLT or my LNWR double track junction or whatever. His model will be riddled with compromises dictated by space, time, ability etc etc. Which means that a full implementation of all the safety devices that a real railway would have is not going to happen. How many model railways have full interlocking? Some do, most don't. How many have separate signal boxes communicating with bell codes? 

 

So, for most modellers (I would assert) what would be helpful would be a basic guide of the the type that the OP obviously has in mind. The modeller who wants to acquire the sort of in-depth knowledge that the professionals have can get it but for others it may not be what they want to concentrate on.

 

I have built a number of etched brass locomotive kits. They look reasonably convincing from the outside but they are only superficially accurate. Inside the firebox or the boiler lurks an electric motor. The springs under the axles are rigid white-metal castings and there is no water, fire or steam involved.

 

The signal they run past is operated by a point motor controlled by a switch. This signal is normally "pulled off" by the bloke driving the loco. WOOPS! 

 

P1060245-2.jpg

 

My point is that we should respect the knowledge that the professionals can bring to bear - when someone knows enough to say "The LSWR never used that" or "That signal should be before the siding points" fair enough. But the professionals should be prepared to concede that a model, already heavily compromised for all sorts of reasons, will have to compromise with its signalling too. 

 

I'll shut up now.

 

Chaz

 

I think it's only going to be irreconcilable if you want it to be irreconcilable.  There is an awful lot more to making your model railway operation realistic than simply having a few signals in, hopefully the correct places.  The big question - again totally irreconcilable - is whether or not you want your model railway operation to be as realistic as the models which run on it or whether you don't want that.  To me that is a personal choice and you reconcile yourself to whichever choice you happen to make - but don't misrepresent it as something else once you have made your choice.

 

There are I think probably many modellers who would like their operating to be as realistic as the scene they have sent, equally there are many others who are perfectly happy to simply play trains and neither group, nor those in between should necessarily be criticised for their choice.  But it is, I think, like anything else in the model railway world when you start to move towards the idea of correctly signalling and or operating the layout you intend to create or have created.   My sketch some posts back was simply there to introduce some basic terminology and explain how a couple of stop signals are named in relation to their function.  Don't forget that all stop signals, albeit with different names according to their placement or function are there for a reason and should be worked in a particular way relating to a variety of factors.  Taken separately most of those factors are pretty straightforward and should be relatively easy to understand when lucidly explained, things become more complex when they are interwoven with each other.  But you'll only truly understand that interweaving if you have at least a basic understanding of what is being interwoven.  

 

Running before you can walk is potentially as much of a trap when it comes to signalling as it is getting locos and stock in the correct livery for the period you are modelling - assuming of course that you either want to get it right or at least make it look right.

 

This thread is very interesting but does not achieve the purpose of a simple guide to putting signals on a model railway. Perhaps the subject is too complex for that unless one is prepared to accept an over simiplified signalling arrangement. After all, so what if it is not quite accurate. Unlike the prototype no one's life depends on it.

 

I think you're right Colin but a good part of that is probably down to the way in which discussion has backed & veered rather than going through it like, say, a training course where you sort Module 1 before progressing to Module 2 or - as I've already said - like a book where you can readily refer back to an earlier chapter.  Putting another way if you don't start in the right place and get your basics right you aren't going to logically and clearly progress, and to do that you've got to understand what you're talking about.

 

Phil made the very good point above that the basics of Absolute Block working were no different on two railways at almost opposite ends of Britain - although some detail beyond did vary between Companies and places and so on, in order to meet local circumstances and operational needs.  A former colleague of mine was for many years deeply involved in writing Rules & Regulations for BR, since his retirement he has been doing the same for a mainline railway on the island of Ireland.  I was also involved in such things in my time on BR but since leaving there I have been writing stuff for Railtrack and, later, 'minor railways' - in all cases basic principles/parts of them are common, detail of course can and does differ considerably.

[Nearholmer]

If we were brace enough to attempt to produce an 'on line intro for model railway purposes' , collaboratively, through the medium of RMWeb, it would need two threads:

 

- one for the discussion and 'approval' of drafts;

 

- another to act as "the book";

 

- a third to act as a forum for 'readers questions'

 

(Oh, that's three!)

 

Personally, I don't think that RMWeb would be a good vehicle, unless the mods can somehow assign 'sole editorship' for "the book" thread to one or two individuals, otherwise it would get junked down with questions and 'did you know?' Commentary.

 

Anyway, I'm starting a semi-retirement commission writing safety procedures for a real railway tomorrow ........ so, much fun and education as this one might be ..........

 

Kevin

[Andy Hayter]

If we are considering signalling for model railways, as suggested above, how about some examples of how to signal a layout.

 

I know layouts come in all shapes and sizes so that is a big ask, but I have a suggestion as a starting point.

 

How about showing a signalling layout for a Minories layout - with an explanation of what each signal does and why it is situated where it is.  This seems to be a popular basis for terminus layouts and it might be argued hits the largest number of modellers in one hit than probably any other  arrangement.  The explanations would then also help provide the basis for numpties (and I include myself) to understand a few of the principles without having to understand every intricacy.

[The Stationmaster]

I had a similar attitude about this thread last night and began trawling for signalling diagrams from signal boxes.

One diagram I did find that interested me (because I knew it quite well being near where my parents lived in their latter years) was Dunton Green, illustrated here on the disused stations site

The diagram shews SR semaphores and DG station signal box (I imagine in the 1950s, still in the days of the Westerham branch). 

I wondered what our signalling cognoscenti might say to this being plausible enough to model as another BR Region location with its own patterns of signal posts and UQ/LQ  semaphores.

It represents a fairly intensive mainline, a branch train and a goods yard. 

dh

 

A question which I think illustrates the whole point of getting to the basics and understanding how they work because that basic understanding is clearly there in order to prompt the question.  I.E. what looks to be right, and obviously was considered to be right at that time at Dunton Green, might (would) be done differently not only necessarily by other Companies/BR Regions but at other places where the same drawing office had drawn up the signalling plan but were working to different operational specifications or requirements to suit a different pattern of traffic or ways of working it.

 

That in turn takes use from our(my) starting point of the Block Section and Station Limits to the next factor applicable to the former which is the Clearing Point which meant, in (double line) Absolute Block signalling that a Signalman could not accept a train from the signalbox in rear unless the line was clear and all points were correctly set for a distance of 440 yards in advance of his outermost Home Signal.  Where or why is this relevant to model railways because obviously the vast majority of layout rooms, or even layouts, are nowhere near 17 feet (in 4mm scale) long.  Two reasons why it is relevant - firstly it can affect the way you work the visible part of your layout and under what circumstances trains are permitted to approach it from you hidden sidings or whatever (assuming you actually want it to look right of course and that has an influence on sequence working or a timetabled situation.  

 

Secondly, and relevant directly to this question is how the various Railways/Regions would have treated the job and placed their signals although never overlook the 'local traffic needs' influence.   And different Companies did indeed take different attitudes - thus on that layout both of the main line platforms happen to lie within the 440 yds Clearing Point so that immediately suggests the signalling is not intended to handle an intensive passenger train service.  But note that on the Up line the junction from the branch platform is not within the Clearing Point - so a main line train could be accepted while one was joining the main line from the branch, but that main line train could not be allowed to run right up to the signal at the platform end immediately protecting the junction because that signal was far less than 440 yards from the junction.  Incidentally the whole purpose of the Clearing Point was to provide a margin for error in train braking originating in an era when brakes were not entirely reliable or consistent in operation.

 

Now see how that might be relevant on a layout which depicts that station - main line Home Signal is way off scene but the one at the platform end is going to be there.  I stand at an exhibition and watch as a train crosses off the branch line as another draws into the main line platform in what amounts to a directly conflicting movement and burst out laughing or pass an uncomplimentary comment  - if you don't want to operate correctly fair enough but if you are purporting to do so then don't say you don't need to understand a little bit about block working.

 

So what about that picture posted by 'Signal Engineer' - what on earth is going on there?   Again quite straightforward because if a train on a conflicting route at a junction is at a stand at the signal immediately protecting the junction then another train may then be allowed to approach the junction on the other route; it's a variation of that basic Clearing Point principle in that you can't use a single Clearing Point for more than one train at a time approaching or accepted (on the block system towards) a junction where absolute Block working applies.

 

So in order to create Clearing Points, particularly approaching busy junctions and stations, the outermost Home Signal had to be sited at least 440 yds in rear of the point of conflict (which in most cases would itself be immediately protected by its own stop signal - which opens up the can of worms relating to the naming of signals where a signalbox happens to have more than one stop signal applicable to any particular running - I'll leave the lid on that one but it should at least explain why I have used the expression 'outermost Home Signal' because the implication is that there might be more than one.

 

N.B. For completeness I should add that in the 1980s the (absolute Block) Clearing Point was reduced to 200 yards if the Distant Signal was a colour light signal.  There were also back in the past and the era of major semaphore signalling installation some particularly busy places where what was known as a 'Modified Clearing Point' could be allowed - which almost invariably meant that for particular reasons the 440 yards was reduced, usually accompanied by reduction in permitted linespeed. 

[Compound2632]

OK, I'll stick my neck out. Here's a model railway, basically a continuous run, heavily compromised by space (11'6" x 4'9"):

 

 

The Derbyshire & Staffordshire Junction Railway originated as a proxy of the Great Northern Railway to gain access to the Potteries; the other companies in the region weren't standing for that so by the time it was built (late 1880s) it had become a joint concern of the Great Northern, Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire, Midland, and London & North Western Railways. The route has a flavour of the Lancashire Derbyshire & East Coast Railway though going more southerly at each end. Don't ask about the route between Chesterfield and Stoke...

 

The London & North Western became responsible for signalling - at least, they supplied the equipment, though there was some local 'interpretation' of how to use it!

 

Two locations are modelled; they run into each other despite supposedly being many miles apart: the eastern end of the line, at Mansfield Woodhouse (Notts!) - not to be confused with the Midland's Mansfield Woodhouse station; the Midland is reached via a branch just west of the DSJR station; and Lambton, a wayside station in the Peak District of Derbyshire. Somewhere a little to the west of Lambton is the junction for the Kympton branch. Somehow the entrance to Mansfield Loco. ends up being at Lambton! Up is east, towards Mansfield, down is towards Stoke.

 

Operationally, through passenger services connecting with the Great Northern at Nottingham run roundy-roundy, as do through goods workings. These run through platform 1 (up) or 3 (down) at Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

The Kympton branch, although currently off-stage, provides some more interesting working, being the ultimate destination of stopping passenger trains from Mansfield Woodhouse. (It was found that Derbyshire folk weren't interested in going to Staffordshire, and vice-versa.) These local trains run through Lambton (having used the 'trailing' crossover at the west end to gain the up line as they come out of the tunnel - we pretend we didn't see that) into platform 2 at Mansfield Woodhouse. As this is a surprisingly intensive service, there's an engine for the return working waiting in the loco spur ready to come out, back on, and take the train out onto the down line. The engine that brought the train in then retires to the loco spur, or makes its way onto the down line to the loco shed. (Engines coming off-shed run wrong-line to Mansfield Woodhouse.) Platform 2 is thus normally treated as a terminal line but can be used as a through up line if there's parcels traffic blocking platform 1.

 

Goods trains to and from the Midland (at that well-known Nottinghamshire location, Hidden Loops) join at Mansfield Junction, which has a rather too modern layout using a facing crossover, rather than a proper double junction. Space! Up Midland goods trains perform the same dicey manoeuver as the Kympton branch trains at the Lambton trailing crossover.

 

Kympton branch goods trains work to and from the (up) yard at Lambton, exchanging traffic with the through goods trains. (This is forced on us by the lack of modelled goods facilities at Mansfield Woodhouse.) An exception is the Kympton biscuit van train, which can work through to the parcels sidings at Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

Four signal boxes are modelled:

 

Mansfield Woodhouse Station East: this small box controls only the down lines; the points are too far and out of sight of the next box:

Mansfield Woodhouse Station West: situated in a cutting between two overbridges, one of which partially blocks the view of the station platforms; then the next box:

Mansfield Woodhouse Junction: controls the junction to the single-line branch to Hidden Sidings.

 

... many other block sections ...

 

Lambton: which also controls the entrance to Mansfield Loco...

 

The next box, Pemberley Junction (for the Kympton branch), is presumed to be some distance further west, beyond Lambton tunnel.

 

The distance between boxes is unfeasibly short so there's a lot of compression - and imagined slotting. One box's starter is the next box's home; I believe that was done in areas of dense signalling. I've sketched in the signals I'm currently building (from Ratio kits), which cover at least all the passenger moves, along with moves to and from the Hidden Loops branch (at Mansfield Junction only), but not things like wrong-line working from the engine shed back to Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

Period: 1950s much of the time, though the infrastructure hasn't changed much since the 1890s.

 

Open to all comers!

Edited September 3, 2017 by Compound2632

[vitalspark]

I wouldn't have posted if it wasn't, I'm not a "I don't know anything about this subject but I simply have to type something" person.

 

The interlocking would probably not allow the signal reading to the signal at the water column and the branch home to be cleared at the same time but it's perfectly possible to have a loco standing at the column with the signal at danger behind it. Local instructions may say that the branch signal must not be cleared until the move is at a stand, in fact it's no different from the train waiting at the branch home, as long as the move is at a stand (or the signal is at least 440yds from the junction) then the main line can have trains passing.

 

 

Apologies for my poor choice of words I was only thinking aloud and not questioning the replies.

I am happier now as the main query I had was holding a train within the 440 yds.

As has now been very simply and logically explained as long as the train has come to a stand and the signal in rear which is operated from the same frame and likely interlocked with the branch signal is also at danger we don't.. as it wouldn't be possible.. pull off the branch.

No more creeping up to the box then because if the branch was 'off' the main line train would be stopped at the signal in rear.

Great stuff and thanks for all that.

All concerned will now be instructed of correct sequence to ensure more realistic operation.

Its interesting that nobody has ever pointed on the circuit but I was uncomfortable with this movement and had feeling we were bending the rules.

 

Dave.

Edited September 3, 2017 by vitalspark

[phil-b259]

OK, I'll stick my neck out. Here's a model railway, basically a continuous run, heavily compromised by space (11'6" x 4'9"):

 

DSJR signalling.jpg

 

The Derbyshire & Staffordshire Junction Railway originated as a proxy of the Great Northern Railway to gain access to the Potteries; the other companies in the region weren't standing for that so by the time it was built (late 1880s) it had become a joint concern of the Great Northern, Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire, Midland, and London & North Western Railways. The route has a flavour of the Lancashire Derbyshire & East Coast Railway though going more southerly at each end. Don't ask about the route between Chesterfield and Stoke...

 

The London & North Western became responsible for signalling - at least, they supplied the equipment, though there was some local 'interpretation' of how to use it!

 

Two locations are modelled; they run into each other despite supposedly being many miles apart: the eastern end of the line, at Mansfield Woodhouse (Notts!) - not to be confused with the Midland's Mansfield Woodhouse station; the Midland is reached via a branch just west of the DSJR station; and Lambton, a wayside station in the Peak District of Derbyshire. Somewhere a little to the west of Lambton is the junction for the Kympton branch. Somehow the entrance to Mansfield Loco. ends up being at Lambton! Up is east, towards Mansfield, down is towards Stoke.

 

Operationally, through passenger services connecting with the Great Northern at Nottingham run roundy-roundy, as do through goods workings. These run through platform 1 (up) or 3 (down) at Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

The Kympton branch, although currently off-stage, provides some more interesting working, being the ultimate destination of stopping passenger trains from Mansfield Woodhouse. (It was found that Derbyshire folk weren't interested in going to Staffordshire, and vice-versa.) These local trains run through Lambton (having used the 'trailing' crossover at the west end to gain the up line as they come out of the tunnel - we pretend we didn't see that) into platform 2 at Mansfield Woodhouse. As this is a surprisingly intensive service, there's an engine for the return working waiting in the loco spur ready to come out, back on, and take the train out onto the down line. The engine that brought the train in then retires to the loco spur, or makes its way onto the down line to the loco shed. (Engines coming off-shed run wrong-line to Mansfield Woodhouse.) Platform 2 is thus normally treated as a terminal line but can be used as a through up line if there's parcels traffic blocking platform 1.

 

Goods trains to and from the Midland (at that well-known Nottinghamshire location, Hidden Loops) join at Mansfield Junction, which has a rather too modern layout using a facing crossover, rather than a proper double junction. Space! Up Midland goods trains perform the same dicey manoeuver as the Kympton branch trains at the Lambton trailing crossover.

 

Kympton branch goods trains work to and from the (up) yard at Lambton, exchanging traffic with the through goods trains. (This is forced on us by the lack of modelled goods facilities at Mansfield Woodhouse.) An exception is the Kympton biscuit van train, which can work through to the parcels sidings at Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

Four signal boxes are modelled:

 

Mansfield Woodhouse Station East: this small box controls only the down lines; the points are too far and out of sight of the next box:

Mansfield Woodhouse Station West: situated in a cutting between two overbridges, one of which partially blocks the view of the station platforms; then the next box:

Mansfield Woodhouse Junction: controls the junction to the single-line branch to Hidden Sidings.

 

... many other block sections ...

 

Lambton: which also controls the entrance to Mansfield Loco...

 

The next box, Pemberley Junction (for the Kympton branch), is presumed to be some distance further west, beyond Lambton tunnel.

 

The distance between boxes is unfeasibly short so there's a lot of compression - and imagined slotting. One box's starter is the next box's home; I believe that was done in areas of dense signalling. I've sketched in the signals I'm currently building (from Ratio kits), which cover at least all the passenger moves, along with moves to and from the Hidden Loops branch (at Mansfield Junction only), but not things like wrong-line working from the engine shed back to Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

Period: 1950s much of the time, though the infrastructure hasn't changed much since the 1890s.

 

Open to all comers!

I would sugest that the first thing to do is actually snip the circle at a convenient place and turn it into a linear plan - with imagined extensions adding to each end.

 

Based on your plan the 'cut line' would be somewhere in the tunnel. Doing this basically gives you a double track line set out as thus:-

 

(1) Unmodelled / imagined absolute block section leading up to Lambton

 

(2) The area controlled by Lambton signal box - know as Labton 'Station Limits'

 

(3) A short absolute block section between Labton and Mansfeild Woodhouse. As did occur on the prototype the short distances involved have put the distant signals for Mansfoeld Woodhouse on the same posts as the stop signals at Lambton that allow entry to the short block section ahead / mark the end of the area designated as 'station limits'. Again, due to the short length of the block section between the two moddeled stations, In the opposite direction the stop last stop signals controlled by Mansfield Woodouse that mark the end of 'station limits' and the start of the absolute block section to Lambton also have Lambtons distant signal mounted on them

 

(4) The area controlled by Mansfield Woodhouse signal box - known as Mansfield Woodhouse 'Station Limits'

 

(5) Unmodelled / imagined absolute block section leading away from Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

Having done this you can take each moddeled 'slice' as a stand alone entity (that is 2, 3 & 4) and signal each bit. Once this is done it will become surprisingly simple to stitch them together.

Edited September 3, 2017 by phil-b259

[Compound2632]

I would sugest that the first thing to do is actually snip the circle at a convenient place and turn it into a linear plan - with imagined extensions adding to each end.

 

Based on your plan the 'cut line' would be somewhere in the tunnel. Doing this basically gives you a double track line set out as thus:-

 

(1) Unmodelled / imagined absolute block section leading up to Lambton

 

(2) The area controlled by Lambton signal box - know as Labton 'Station Limits'

 

(3) A short absolute block section between Labton and Mansfeild Woodhouse. As did occur on the prototype the short distances involved have put the distant signals for Mansfoeld Woodhouse on the same posts as the stop signals at Lambton that allow entry to the short block section ahead / mark the end of the area designated as 'station limits'. Again, due to the short length of the block section between the two moddeled stations, In the opposite direction the stop last stop signals controlled by Mansfield Woodouse that mark the end of 'station limits' and the start of the absolute block section to Lambton also have Lambtons distant signal mounted on them

 

(4) The area controlled by Lambton signal box - know as Mansfield Woodhouse 'Station Limits'

 

(5) Unmodelled / imagined absolute block section leading up to Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

Having done this you can take each moddeled 'slice' as a stand alone entity (that is 2, 3 & 4) and signal each bit. Once this is done it will become surprisingly simple to stitch them together.

 

Just so - I thought of presenting the plan in a linear form but (a) it wouldn't fit on my piece of paper (though I could break it down into individual box diagrams - perhaps I'll do that) and (b) the plan shows the real space constraints on the layout. And yes, I think of it as a series of came scenes - main-line station, station throat, branch line junction, engine shed, wayside station.

[RailWest]

This talk about Outer and Inner Homes and Clearing Points etc reminds me.....

 

There was one particular location with both Outer and Inner Homes where, because of the particular nature of the location, the interlocking required the Inner Home to be pulled first to release the Outer Home. This meant that, in the event of a conflicting move in advance of the Inner Home, then any approaching train was always held at the Outer Home. On a particular model of this location the Outer Home was 'off scene', so the owner-operator (unaware initially of the prototype working) always allowed approaching trains to draw up to the Inner Home while awaiting the conflicting movement, as he felt that it added 'interest' to see both trains in the visual part of the layout at the same time.

 

So - visually the signalling looked OK, but operational the layout was incorrect. As the owner - having been made aware of the prototype - chose to continue with his chosen practise, to what extent (if any) can we criticise him for doing what he likes with his own model?

[MarkC]

Ah, now your layout has a signal for every move. As I understand it, in many places such extravagance was avoided and all shunting was done by hand signals within station limits - no ground signals. Hence my remark about that up home signal. I have in mind the classic Midland wayside station layout, of which Monsal Dale is a nice simple example.

 

It varied by Railway Company - the North Eastern, as I understand it, were very, well, 'enthusiastic' about using signals for controlling shunting movements...

 

[Compound2632]

It varied by Railway Company - the North Eastern, as I understand it, were very, well, 'enthusiastic' about using signals for controlling shunting movements...

 

 

Yes, and proper signals on proper posts too - none of your ground-level stuff. Moral: if you're put off by signalling, don't model the North Eastern!

[bike2steam]

So - visually the signalling looked OK, but operational the layout was incorrect. As the owner - having been made aware of the prototype - chose to continue with his chosen practise, to what extent (if any) can we criticise him for doing what he likes with his own model?

And how many average punters would be aware of it at an exhibition, more to see creates more interest.

[micknich2003]

Yes, and proper signals on proper posts too - none of your ground-level stuff. Moral: if you're put off by signalling, don't model the North Eastern!

 The NERly also had plenty of ground level Disc Sigals. A typical example shown at Beverley in attached picture.

 

[Compound2632]

 The NERly also had plenty of ground level Disc Sigals. A typical example shown at Beverley in attached picture.

 BEVERLEY c1926.jpg

Interesting train - seems to be L&Y stock. I note the number 89 - an excursion?

[micknich2003]

Interesting train - seems to be L&Y stock. I note the number 89 - an excursion?

Yes, an excursion and L&Rly stock.

[Colin_McLeod]

Absolutely agree. within say semaphore signalling , it's entirely possible to describe a generic signalling approach that would suit modellers approaching the subject for the first time and trying to place signals on a layout that's not prototypical.

I agree but attempts to do so on this thread have been met with all the complications of the finer points of signalling. Perhaps we just need to answer a simple question like "I have just purchased these seven signals. Where would be appropriate places to locate them on my layout?"

Edited September 3, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[TheSignalEngineer]

Perhaps we just need to answer a simple question like "I have just purchased these seven signals. Where would be appropriate places to locate them on my layout?"

This approach was tried by Railtrack. They didn't have much success with it.

[beast66606]

This approach was tried by Railtrack. They didn't have much success with it.

 

Nowadays it's called Modular signalling ..

[BWsTrains]

if

 

If we were brace enough to attempt to produce an 'on line intro for model railway purposes' , collaboratively, through the medium of RMWeb, it would need two threads:

- one for the discussion and 'approval' of drafts;

- another to act as "the book";

- a third to act as a forum for 'readers questions'

(Oh, that's three!)

Personally, I don't think that RMWeb would be a good vehicle, unless the mods can somehow assign 'sole editorship' for "the book" thread to one or two individuals, otherwise it would get junked down with questions and 'did you know?' Commentary.

Anyway, I'm starting a semi-retirement commission writing safety procedures for a real railway tomorrow ........ so, much fun and education as this one might be ..........

Kevin

If there's ever a book I'd strongly recommend the cover should mimic THHGTTG and offer the consoling words "DON'T PANIC"

[TheSignalEngineer]

.So what about that picture posted by 'Signal Engineer' - what on earth is going on there?   Again quite straightforward because if a train on a conflicting route at a junction is at a stand at the signal immediately protecting the junction then another train may then be allowed to approach the junction on the other route; it's a variation of that basic Clearing Point principle in that you can't use a single Clearing Point for more than one train at a time approaching or accepted (on the block system towards) a junction where absolute Block working applies.

 

Possibly a nice little trap I set with that one. 

 

The signals were Bournville's first Home signals. The left one is coming round the curve from Lifford Station Junction and the right one is the West Suburban line coming from Kings Norton Station. The signal in the rear of the express would have been Kings Norton's Starter, which was a 3 aspect colour light controlled to green as Bournville Station's Distant signal.

 

By the time of the photo Bournville covered quite a long stretch in urban area terms. Lifford West Junction used to have its own box, but this is not shown on the large-scale OS maps from 1937. At Bournville Station box itself there was a trailing crossover with a slip connection to the old alignment of the West Suburban which was retained as the 'Canal Branch' to factories around Lifford, and a trailing connection from the Up to the loco shed. Next towards Birmingham was the station, then an in-section trailing ground frame on the Up line at Cadbury's Siding.  https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=519

[RailWest]

And how many average punters would be aware of it at an exhibition, more to see creates more interest.

A good point, with which it is hard to disagree. However, a contrary view....

 

I would suggest that many modellers 'learn' from what they see at exhibitions in much the same way as they 'learn' by visiting heritage railways and/or railway 'historical exhibits' (which sometimes may be less-than-accurate). I have always held the view that, if you are going to 'educate the public' then there is a moral - if not legal - obligation to educate them correctly. If, for practical reasons (eg lack of relevant information, objects etc), you can not do so with a high degree of accuracy, then you should at least make clear the known discrepancies. I do not believe that we should (appear to ) condone 'bad habits'.

 

Meanwhile, it's back to my 16.5mm gauge track and old Tri-ang wheels.....

[peanuts]

Nowadays it's called Modular signalling ..

but was formaly known as "Ensaldo " but thats a whole nuther story