Car park fire Liverpool

[tamperman36]

There was a large car park fire in Liverpool last night, luckily nobody appears to have been injured. Many vehicles were burnt out and the fire services have done a good job in controlling and fighting the extensive fire, however in these modern times there should be a way to make this sort of incident less damaging such as built in fire suppression equipment. I understand that in the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower disaster priority must go to sorting fire safety within high rise housing, but surely we should review fire safety inside all public buildings.

[t8hants]

It would appear that full credit must be given to the security staff who stopped anyone going in the building from the moment the fire was discovered.  I am sure this prevented loss of life, if people were milling about or trying to rescue their car chaos would have soon followed.

The last few months have certainly made our much vaunted fire safety measures look rather thin.

[298]

Sprinklers...?

 

I recently had to write a risk assessment to cover the charging of Electric cars in the company car park. Limitation of risk is one thing, but elimination of root cause is a lot different, especially when I pointed out the only time the fire brigade had been called to site to a vehicle fire in 25 years was when an employee had driven to work with a "Mechanic", who had then proceeded to undertake repairs to said car...

[chris p bacon]

The last few months have certainly made our much vaunted fire safety measures look rather thin.

 

 

Our building regs are already quite stringent on new builds, the issues we have are with old buildings and how they are brought up to current standards as a trade off has to be made*

 

A quick comment on sprinklers, they are always seen as the answer but they can't always be fitted, as they need a huge volume of water to work efficiently, the supply of which isn't always easy.

 

 

 

* I'm currently upgrading a bedsit which is on a flying freehold above a vets, I own down to the ceiling but not the ceiling itself just the joists, at present there is no (and hasn't been for 150 years) any fire protection so I am trying to install some protection without the ability to replace the ceiling below. In discussion we've come up with an hour of fire protection but it's taken nearly 12 months to do this.

[tamperman36]

If the way forward for vehicles is to have battery powered cars with charging points, surely sprinklers is not really a good idea. I was always taught NEVER mix water and electric so it would have to have something like CO2 jets, or some form of sealable sections which can be either pumped full of extinguisher or all the oxygen removed thus supressing a fire.

[Downendian]

Indeed, I saw last night one of my friends car was trapped on the same floor as the fire. I can only assume it was destroyed, not the best of starts for his 2018. At least no one was hurt.

Neil

[Legend]

If the way forward for vehicles is to have battery powered cars with charging points, surely sprinklers is not really a good idea. I was always taught NEVER mix water and electric so it would have to have something like CO2 jets, or some form of sealable sections which can be either pumped full of extinguisher or all the oxygen removed thus supressing a fire.

And what happens if there’s any bystanders around when the CO2 goes off? These things tend to work in contained and controlled areas, like machinery rooms . They are not for areas where the general public are .

[298]

If the way forward for vehicles is to have battery powered cars with charging points, surely sprinklers is not really a good idea.

A sprinkler activation would shut down any charging points, assuming their own safety systems weren't activated beforehand. And as for not having a suitable water supply, the clue is in the address: Liverpool Dock....

[30801]

If the way forward for vehicles is to have battery powered cars with charging points, surely sprinklers is not really a good idea. I was always taught NEVER mix water and electric so it would have to have something like CO2 jets, or some form of sealable sections which can be either pumped full of extinguisher or all the oxygen removed thus supressing a fire.

Not an issue. They're designed to be charged sitting outside in the rain.

[tamperman36]

How are the car carrying wagons on the channel tunnel shuttles designed to control vehicle fires?

Couldn't some of the systems form them be adapted.

[TheSignalEngineer]

How are the car carrying wagons on the channel tunnel shuttles designed to control vehicle fires?

Couldn't some of the systems form them be adapted.

I don't think they have any. I understand that there a four locations within the tunnel fitted with fire suppression equipment. The idea is that in the event of a train fire it should proceed to the next one of these to be evacuated into the service tunnel then the water misting system is turned on to control the fire..

[chris p bacon]

A sprinkler activation would shut down any charging points, assuming their own safety systems weren't activated beforehand. And as for not having a suitable water supply, the clue is in the address: Liverpool Dock....

 

 

I see, I didn't realise that the contents of the Liverpool dock was pumped in large volumes and high pressure around the city in a network of pipes.  We have them in the South but they contain drinking water.

[duncan]

From a point of complete ignorance about the fire, how can cars in a car park catch fire ? 

 

Was there a collision, if so was it low speed & why was there enough damage for fire ? 

If high speed, then there is not much that could be done. 

How did the fire spread, was petrol flowing around the floor, if so, how was a tank burst ? 

Did the combustibility of unleaded petrol over diesel (or leaded petrol) play a part ?

 

Mods - please delete if you deem inappropriate, as I assume any inquiry will look at at least some of above. 

[Fat Controller]

I don't think they have any. I understand that there a four locations within the tunnel fitted with fire suppression equipment. The idea is that in the event of a train fire it should proceed to the next one of these to be evacuated into the service tunnel then the water misting system is turned on to control the fire..

The car-carrying trains have AFFF (Aqueous Film-Forming Foam) and Halon fire suppression systems on each wagon. It wouldn't be much good relying on an external water-misting system on enclosed vehicles. The 'SAFE' system is intended to deal with fire on the open lorry carriers.

[chris p bacon]

Fires can start very easily, hot exhaust with brake fluid dripping on it. electrical fires start very easily with frayed wiring. 

 

My last neighbours Astra caught fire behind the dashboard while he was driving along the A1 at 50mph on his way to work, burnt out within minutes.

[jjb1970]

Does the channel tunnel still have its derogation to use halon?

[Fat Controller]

Fires in cars are quite common, though, happily, seldom with such dramatic consequences. Potential starting points include electrical systems, unextinguished cigarettes, fuel leak over a hot exhaust; once they start, they would spread pretty quickly.

We had one on my dad's old Vauxhall Cresta when hot exhaust gas from a leaky silencer heated the bituminous underseal that had been applied inside and out to flash-point. Whilst moving, the hot gas had been dispersed, but as soon as we got stuck in a traffic jam.. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

From a point of complete ignorance about the fire, how can cars in a car park catch fire ? 

 For that you are looking at the source of ignition, whioch will doubless be the subject of an enquiry. Something as simple as flammable material being blown under a newly parked car with a hot engine is sufficient. Some will remember the large 'car park' fire in France which burnt out many cars,  caused by vehicles parking on dry long grass. Confined within a structure a single liquid fuelled vehicle once alight is going to ignite others even more swiftly

 

 

...it would have to have something like CO2 jets, or some form of sealable sections which can be either pumped full of extinguisher or all the oxygen removed thus supressing a fire.

 But also unfortunately a problem for life kind, due to our own internal combustion requirement! Foams/mists are typically the answer.

[Fat Controller]

Does the channel tunnel still have its derogation to use halon?

I believe so, though it has recently been replaced in static locations such as the Control Centres where I work.

[jjb1970]

I believe so, though it has recently been replaced in static locations such as the Control Centres where I work.

Thanks for that, interesting. It must be getting a lot harder to retain with alternative fire suppressant gases like Inergen which can be used in occupied spaces being available.

[Fat Controller]

FIres in cars spread very quickly. I've seen the results of two, both in Calais on SNCF metals. In one, on a Motorail service, an aerosol had been left on a parcel shelf, and become heated by the sun. The other had been on a train carrying new Peugeots- the 'jockeys' who loaded the train had left a radio aerial extended on the top deck, and an arc from the catenary had flashed over. The damage was spectacular- several hundred new cars destroyed, along with a rake of wagons, and several kilometres of catenary. 

[westie7]

Some of my recent experiences being called out to car fires, has shown the new hazards presented by the use of exotic volatile materials in construction. The reactions to a high pressure hose reel can be shocking. Not surprised how this one panned out and wouldn't have liked being in an enclosed environment with 1.5tonne party poppers going off

[duncan]

I imagine the batteries of electric cars could make a bang if they are in a fire

[30801]

I imagine the batteries of electric cars could make a bang if they are in a fire

More than a tank full of petrol?

They burn. Slowly enough for you to leave that car, call the fire brigade and for the fire brigade to arrive and still have something to put out.

They do take a long time to put out though, for the same reasons. They are made of discrete cells packed into little metal boxes.

[jjb1970]

I had an excellent video on my work computer of an ROV exploding on the deck of an offshore vessel, it looked like the vessel had been hit by a 500lb bomb (no, I'm not egging the pudding). That was the battery pack going up.