Car park fire Liverpool

[PhilJ W]

How are the car carrying wagons on the channel tunnel shuttles designed to control vehicle fires?

Couldn't some of the systems form them be adapted.

Each wagon is sealed off from its neighbour when the train is moving so a fire would be confined to just one wagon

 

I see, I didn't realise that the contents of the Liverpool dock was pumped in large volumes and high pressure around the city in a network of pipes.  We have them in the South but they contain drinking water.

The contents of the London docks were pumped over several miles of pipes for the hydraulicly operated cranes and lock gates etc.

 

I imagine the batteries of electric cars could make a bang if they are in a fire

If punctured they could cause a fire as lithium reacts strongly when exposed to air. It was demonstrated once by someone hammering a nail through a mobile phone battery.

[peanuts]

From a point of complete ignorance about the fire, how can cars in a car park catch fire ? 

 

Was there a collision, if so was it low speed & why was there enough damage for fire ? 

If high speed, then there is not much that could be done. 

How did the fire spread, was petrol flowing around the floor, if so, how was a tank burst ? 

Did the combustibility of unleaded petrol over diesel (or leaded petrol) play a part ?

 

Mods - please delete if you deem inappropriate, as I assume any inquiry will look at at least some of above. 

according to former footballer Mark Wright on nw tv news the fire started in an old  landrover in one corner of the carpark (with photo to prove ) and could of been contained with fire fighting equipment but despite him searching there was none to be found / 

[PhilJ W]

It was reported on the 6 o'clock news that cars on the top of the building in the open air escaped serious damage, probably because the heat travelled across the ceilings of the lower floors. At least three dogs were rescued from those vehicles unscathed, I just hope there were no dogs or other animals on the lower floors. Apparently the cars on the roof will have to stay there until the building has been checked, it is so badly damaged that its in danger of collapse.

[tamperman36]

If that is the case the building will require shoring up before any recovery can take place and once done the building will require demollission, so any new carpark structure could be designed with fire suppression equipment from the start.

[Jonboy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-42533830

 

The damage to the floor is apparent in the pictures in this article, not sure what it says for the rest of the structure.

[Free At Last]

On one of the news bulletins I heard that car owners were advised to contact their insurance companies... Really? I don't suppose they would have thought of that.

 

I suppose what they are saying is vehicles are parked at the owners risk and they will be giving no refunds of parking charges.

[caradoc]

How would water sprinklers work in a multi-storey car park (serious question) ? Would there be a tank at the top of the building, or would water be pumped up when the system was activated (which might reduce the system's effectiveness due to the time lag ? Could the system only activate on the floor where a fire was detected ? And finally, is it normal practice to fit such systems to such structures ?

[Jonboy]

The sprinkler systems I have seen within warehouses have a glass bulb in the sprinkler head. If it reaches a certain temperature the bulb breaks and lets the pressurised water behind it flow out. They appeared to be fed directly off a rising main.

 

I don’t know if other systems work differently.

[Guest]

Here's a video of someone abusing a cell from a Leaf battery. The results are... unspectacular.

 

[tamperman36]

Would a sprinkler system be effective if a vehicle fire started under the bonnet, as it is designed to keep rain and bad weather out of the engine compartment or would a high preasure misting system fitted in the floor pointing upwards be a better system.

[MarkC]

I had an excellent video on my work computer of an ROV exploding on the deck of an offshore vessel, it looked like the vessel had been hit by a 500lb bomb (no, I'm not egging the pudding). That was the battery pack going up.

About 6 months ago one of my Engineers was doing the weekly safety checks on the Rescue Boat, which has a 50hp outboard engine. On turning the starter key, the battery exploded. The battery itself is/was the same size as found in a medium size hatchback, 12v 70Ah. Fortunately the debris and battery acid was contained, because the battery is in a steel box under the helmsman's seat, but the Engineer was pretty badly shaken up, as you can imagine. (He was sitting on the seat when the bang occurred). Now, had the battery NOT been enclosed, the consequences could have been very serious.

 

As it was, my sending in to the office of a "I regret to inform you..." message, with a rider to tell them to get a new battery on arrival at the next port, as we couldn't sail out until the boat was back in commission, caused some consternation...

[Guius]

 As people will appreciate Hydrogen gas is given off a battery when charging, it only takes a spark to ignite an accumulation of gas due to bad ventilation and an explosion is possible. I cringe when I hear of individuals "testing" car batteries by shorting across the terminals with a spanner to evaluate its charge.

 

Guy

[sulzer27jd]

Would a sprinkler system be effective if a vehicle fire started under the bonnet, as it is designed to keep rain and bad weather out of the engine compartment or would a high preasure misting system fitted in the floor pointing upwards be a better system.

[sulzer27jd]

No is the short answer. Car fires usually require a high pressure hose reel to extinguish then.

[298]

Would a sprinkler system be effective if a vehicle fire started under the bonnet, as it is designed to keep rain and bad weather out of the engine compartment or would a high preasure misting system fitted in the floor pointing upwards be a better system.

The Fire Service have said a Sprinkler system would have helped to contain the fire. But surely it is better to stop a fire happening in the first place.

 

Remind me again of that piece in the news saying that vehicles now over 40 years of age no longer require a yearly MOT...?

[John M Upton]

The Fire Service have said a Sprinkler system would have helped to contain the fire. But surely it is better to stop a fire happening in the first place.

 

Remind me again of that piece in the news saying that vehicles now over 40 years of age no longer require a yearly MOT...?

 

Yep, elderly cars can now be on the road where the only maintenance and safety checks can be done by an amateur mechanic in his shed.  Whilst the vast majority of elderly and classic cars will of course be maintained by experienced mechanics, there will still be those that will be in the tinkering without really knowing what they are doing category and it only takes one mistake on one car to set off something like this.

[Arthur]

 

Part of the reason for the exemption of older vehicles from the MOT testing regime is the difficulty in drafting legislation that can encompass both modern and older vehicle technology. Legislation that covers modern braking systems on cars designed to exceed 100 mph would be a fail on older systems perfectly safe and adequate on the vehicle to which they are fitted. As the legislation evolves to encompass modern technology it starts to leave behind different, yet still safe systems.

 

Many examiners are unfamiliar with older vehicle systems and, as it stands, it is a bit of a lottery in finding a station which will do a test and then getting consistent results. One examiner, sticking strictly by the rules, will fail a vehicle whereas another will make an assessment and allowance for it’s age, and pass it.

 

The detail is as yet unclear but owners will still be able to submit their vehicles for an annual test. I have a vehicle which will be exempt next year. It is my intention to have it tested or checked over by a third party once a year.

 

The vehicle that caught fire in the Liverpool car park was a fairly modern Range Rover. Vehicle fires happen on near new cars, the scope of this particular incident is rare.

 

So please, let’s not start a panic over the idea of MOT exempt, older vehicles spontaneously combusting on a routine basis.

 

.

[big jim]

ref electric vehicles, i was watching the episode of the grand tour where hammond crashed the electric sportscar and the comment was made afterwards that the remains kept bursting into flames for 5 days after the crash as the next cell in the daisy chain of batteries caught alight

[PhilJ W]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-42533830

 

The damage to the floor is apparent in the pictures in this article, not sure what it says for the rest of the structure.

The steel reinforcing has expanded with the heat and shattered the concrete.

[tamperman36]

Following on from that with all the water used and the oxidation the exposed RE bar will begin to rust a decay which will then begin to fracture more of the concrete. This weaken the structure and make it potentially dangerous, it could take some time to remove all the wreckage.

 

The same things would have to be considered in any future fire suppression system as well. Could it be possible to make a fire resistant concrete using some sort of resin mixed in with the concrete as its made and poured. A fire suppression system could have pipework cast inside the concrete so the only external parts would be the nozzles.

[chris p bacon]

Following on from that with all the water used and the oxidation the exposed RE bar will begin to rust a decay which will then begin to fracture more of the concrete. This weaken the structure and make it potentially dangerous, it could take some time to remove all the wreckage.

 

The same things would have to be considered in any future fire suppression system as well. Could it be possible to make a fire resistant concrete using some sort of resin mixed in with the concrete as its made and poured. A fire suppression system could have pipework cast inside the concrete so the only external parts would be the nozzles.

 

 

Concrete is already fire resistant.  

 

Although it looks bad (and is) it is still standing. The intense heat expanded the internal steels and meant some of the concrete encasing them was lost, once there are holes it means the steel has some room to move. You can never save a building from fire, merely slow down the rate of loss.  Sprinklers are great for stopping loss of life but this is just a car park and all that is needed is a rising main and hoses/fire fighting equipment on each level,  this has been lost over time due to vandalism though.

[Dunsignalling]

From a point of complete ignorance about the fire, how can cars in a car park catch fire ? 

 

Was there a collision, if so was it low speed & why was there enough damage for fire ? 

If high speed, then there is not much that could be done. 

How did the fire spread, was petrol flowing around the floor, if so, how was a tank burst ? 

Did the combustibility of unleaded petrol over diesel (or leaded petrol) play a part ?

 

Mods - please delete if you deem inappropriate, as I assume any inquiry will look at at least some of above. 

The vast majority of car fires begin from electrical faults, but once the first vehicle goes up in a big way, as this story demonstrates, all the other factors come into play. 

 

They don't just result in fires, either. My blood ran cold the other day watching one of those traffic police programmes in which an almost brand new Range Rover with electronic everything had immobilised itself, solidly in gear so that it couldn't even be pushed/towed clear, in the third lane of a motorway..................   

 

John

Edited January 2, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

More than a tank full of petrol?

They burn. Slowly enough for you to leave that car, call the fire brigade and for the fire brigade to arrive and still have something to put out.

They do take a long time to put out though, for the same reasons. They are made of discrete cells packed into little metal boxes.

Full tanks of petrol are less of a problem than almost empty ones full of vapour, which ignites much more readily. 

 

Electrical fires take hold far more quickly, and are more persistent, than most of us imagine.

 

John

Edited January 2, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[PatB]

My home state in Australia (and several others, although I can no longer remember which ones, off the top of my head) has no annual inspection requirement for private vehicles. It is noteworthy that there is no statistically significant difference in the prevalence of incidents caused by roadworthiness faults in WA from states with annual inspection regimes. Or at least there wasn't up until 10 years ago when I left the Department which would have been responsible for implementing such a regime. Whilst we don't have the corrosion problems of the UK, believe me that vehicles can deteriorate just as fast from every other cause.

[chriswright03]

The Fire Service have said a Sprinkler system would have helped to contain the fire. But surely it is better to stop a fire happening in the first place.

 

Remind me again of that piece in the news saying that vehicles now over 40 years of age no longer require a yearly MOT...?

So you think that every car running round that has a valid MOT is safe then?  An MOT 'if' done properly states that the car was safe at that time but it does not say it is going to be for the next year or that the day after someone isn't going to fit a radio badly.  I expect the owners of 'most' classic cars are far more likely to make sure their pride and joy is maintained to a higher standard than some of the cars being driven about.  Don't forget to the Government anything over 10 years old is a banger now and should be scrapped.