ardbealach Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Talking about insurance claims - I would assume that they will all lose their No Claims - unless the claim can be directed at that particular Land Rover's insurers? And what about cars still in the car park undamaged? If the car park structure is damaged and the cars cannot be retrieved are these undamaged vehicles also to be written off? For 1400 cars at say an average of £20K each book value - comes to £28 million claim - and that doesnt include personal items or the car park itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Been reported on another site that it was a P38 Range Rover which were last built in 2002 so maybe classed by the bigoted media as an old Landrover, it was also suggested that it looked like a fire caused by LPG or gas, quite a number of bigger vehicles have been converted to gas power due to the cost of running a 4.2ltr engine. I suspect this is all purely unsupported info but the picture does show such a vehicle although to me the ball of fire looks to be at the next vehicle along so who knows. I seen plenty burned out vehicles on my travels and just last week a patch of road near us was showing the fire damage done by a car fire so it does happen, usually French wiring though.. Dave Franks. I've converted mine to lpg, been on the fuel since 2000. It is actually safer than petrol. The lpg is in a pressure vessel (tank) which has to be tested every 10 years, and is far stronger than a petrol tank. The filling station pump is delivering at around 150 psi !. If you were to be in a rear end collision with a petrol tank, it could rupture very easily (which is why they are now mounted further forward). The lpg tank could be ripped out of the vehicle and still not leak. It is fitted with a solenoid valve that cuts off when the ignition is switched off, and there is a further one at the front end. Like any vehicle though, it is down to maintenance. A chafed pipe or loose connection somewhere will cause leaks on any vehicle.... Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Talking about insurance claims - I would assume that they will all lose their No Claims - unless the claim can be directed at that particular Land Rover's insurers? And what about cars still in the car park undamaged? If the car park structure is damaged and the cars cannot be retrieved are these undamaged vehicles also to be written off? For 1400 cars at say an average of £20K each book value - comes to £28 million claim - and that doesnt include personal items or the car park itself. So you are saying that all 1400 were new cars are you? Most would have had a book value considerably less than £10k. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 A lot of people now class a car as a throw away commodity, just like a kettle or vacuum cleaner, when it breaks buy (or lease) another one. Unless it is the brakes that 'break'. Can't lease a new head or body if it has been caved in. Tried explaining this to a friend - "But it has just passed it's MOT" Could not understand that the pads could be wafer thin and give out after 1000 miles, or the brake fluid could have water in it and boil under emergency braking etc. etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) So you are saying that all 1400 were new cars are you? Most would have had a book value considerably less than £10k. Do remember that this was parking for the International Horse of the year show, There would be a disproportionate number of Range Rovers, Mercs, and other high end Luxury cars which when new would have cost £100,000 or more. It could mean that he is in fact underestimating... In fact after checking the photos, it is difficult to find a photo that has not got a high end suv in it - usually a Recent Land Rover product where recognisable, Maybe all those Land Rovers parked in one place was an accident waiting to happen... Edited January 2, 2018 by Titan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Do remember that this was parking for the International Horse of the year show, There would be a disproportionate number of Range Rovers, Mercs, and other high end Luxury cars which when new would have cost £100,000 or more. It could mean that he is in fact underestimating... Good job it didn't happen in the local Aldi car park. Now that would have been expensive. Bernard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) Been reported on another site that it was a P38 Range Rover which were last built in 2002 so maybe classed by the bigoted media as an old Landrover, it was also suggested that it looked like a fire caused by LPG or gas, quite a number of bigger vehicles have been converted to gas power due to the cost of running a 4.2ltr engine. I suspect this is all purely unsupported info but the picture does show such a vehicle although to me the ball of fire looks to be at the next vehicle along so who knows. I seen plenty burned out vehicles on my travels and just last week a patch of road near us was showing the fire damage done by a car fire so it does happen, usually French wiring though.. Dave Franks. 15 years (minimum) is a fair age, especially if it's spent a fair chunk of it dragging a double horsebox around. Dunno about French wiring, though; excluding Vauxhall Zafiras which are fairly notorious for self-immolation, three of the last four (non-criminal) burn-outs I've seen were old (pre-2002 ) BMWs and the other was a Ford. That said, my Peugeot is going in for a looking-at because the automatic headlights have started staying on when they shouldn't. John Edited January 2, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2018 Concrete is already fire resistant. Although it looks bad (and is) it is still standing. The intense heat expanded the internal steels and meant some of the concrete encasing them was lost, once there are holes it means the steel has some room to move. You can never save a building from fire, merely slow down the rate of loss. Sprinklers are great for stopping loss of life but this is just a car park and all that is needed is a rising main and hoses/fire fighting equipment on each level, this has been lost over time due to vandalism though. Alas concrete isn't resistant to high temperature fires (as Eurotunnel found out the hard way) - according to several 'net sources, including one drawing data from testing, the following takes place - Below 300C some chemical changes can occur depending on type of aggregate and remaining water content. 300C concrete starts to lose its strength Further chemical changes then at 600C Marked increase in thermal creep, starting temperature for explosive spalling 700C Decomposition of carbonates 800C Ceramic bond 1,200 C Melting begins and melting phase continues up to 1,400C Admittedly these are generally far higher temperatures that concrete would encounter in many structures but the extent of chemical and physical change to concrete is one post-fire assessment method to gauge the temperatures the fire reached reached. So the damage doesn't just come from any temperature effect on rebar but also from the impact of high temperatures on the concrete itself. If spalling is present post-fire then could well be as much due to high temperature as to rebar expanding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) Talking about insurance claims - I would assume that they will all lose their No Claims - unless the claim can be directed at that particular Land Rover's insurers? And what about cars still in the car park undamaged? If the car park structure is damaged and the cars cannot be retrieved are these undamaged vehicles also to be written off? For 1400 cars at say an average of £20K each book value - comes to £28 million claim - and that doesnt include personal items or the car park itself. However according to one media report the lady owner of one car said that it had contained two iPads, one other 'i'something or other, sundry other expensive items, and about £80 on cash. I wonder if the insurers will seriously believe that people leave all that in a car in a car park anywhere, let alone in Liverpool? Edited January 2, 2018 by The Stationmaster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) However according to one media report the lady owner of one car said that it had contained two iPads, one other 'i'something or other, sundry other expensive items, and about £80 on cash. I wonder if the insurers will seriously believe that people leave all that in a car in a car park anywhere, let alone in Liverpool? I was thinking items would be added to the claim but decided not to post it. I would have thought there would be some identifiable remains of said items in the car and its a question of how far the insurance companies will go to disprove the claims, I have noticed lately they are more likely to send out an assessor than they were a few years ago. Edited January 2, 2018 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 BBC reports quotes a witness who said it started in "an old Land-Rover". As the owner of one of those I can confirm that they can ignite quite happily all by themselves once you get enough oil, fabric-covered wiring, DIY mods/repairs and dodgy connections in the same place. Which is why mine has a big chunky battery isolator fitted, with the isolator key chained to the ignition key so you can't leave it unattended and switched on. I'm intruiged to see how many insurance claims 1400 burnt out vehicles will generate ... It did make me wonder what was to stop some-one claiming that their car was in there and making a claim before hiding their real car out of the way to be mined for parts before quietly being disposed of. I can see the parking company's inevitable claim that they take no liability becoming quite tested when the insurance companies come looking to recoup some of their losses. Negligence for having no fire suppression? Failure to provide basic fire extinguishers that could have been used to put out the original fire? Also what about those people who will claim that they lost other assets that were in their cars? There were probably a lot of people with saddles and other horse related gear in there. Talking about insurance claims - I would assume that they will all lose their No Claims - unless the claim can be directed at that particular Land Rover's insurers? And what about cars still in the car park undamaged? If the car park structure is damaged and the cars cannot be retrieved are these undamaged vehicles also to be written off? For 1400 cars at say an average of £20K each book value - comes to £28 million claim - and that doesnt include personal items or the car park itself. The cars on the rooftop can always be craned off. All the vehicles need to be removed before the building is demolished so the bigger question is how to remove the charred wrecks. It did make me wonder though why the carpark operators are claiming that all vehicles were destroyed when photos and fire reports verify that those on the top floor are undamaged? I can't imagine that the insurance company will write off undamaged cars quite so readily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Alas concrete isn't resistant to high temperature fires (as Eurotunnel found out the hard way) And of course the Jaguar Car Factory, long ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2018 It did make me wonder what was to stop some-one claiming that their car was in there and making a claim before hiding their real car out of the way to be mined for parts before quietly being disposed of. I can see the parking company's inevitable claim that they take no liability becoming quite tested when the insurance companies come looking to recoup some of their losses. Negligence for having no fire suppression? Failure to provide basic fire extinguishers that could have been used to put out the original fire? Also what about those people who will claim that they lost other assets that were in their cars? There were probably a lot of people with saddles and other horse related gear in there. The cars on the rooftop can always be craned off. All the vehicles need to be removed before the building is demolished so the bigger question is how to remove the charred wrecks. It did make me wonder though why the carpark operators are claiming that all vehicles were destroyed when photos and fire reports verify that those on the top floor are undamaged? I can't imagine that the insurance company will write off undamaged cars quite so readily. If the car park owners' lawyers are smart enough, I reckon the company that insures the car that started it all will end up paying for the whole shooting match. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 If the car park owners' lawyers are smart enough, I reckon the company that insures the car that started it all will end up paying for the whole shooting match. John If it is going to be a 9 figure sum as reported, it'll probably be covered by the Motor Insurers Bureau- in which case we'll all end up paying... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 This might set some kind of record for property damage, but as there were no serious injuries it's probably not going to top the list of insurance claims. Wasn't the insurer at Great Heck facing a claim of £50m or so? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 So you are saying that all 1400 were new cars are you? Most would have had a book value considerably less than £10k. What or how ever the total claim comes to it's us who will be footing the bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 About 6 months ago one of my Engineers was doing the weekly safety checks on the Rescue Boat, which has a 50hp outboard engine. On turning the starter key, the battery exploded. The battery itself is/was the same size as found in a medium size hatchback, 12v 70Ah. Fortunately the debris and battery acid was contained, because the battery is in a steel box under the helmsman's seat, but the Engineer was pretty badly shaken up, as you can imagine. (He was sitting on the seat when the bang occurred). Now, had the battery NOT been enclosed, the consequences could have been very serious. I did that with the lawn tractor ! Our fire chief, who lives ~2 km away heard the bang...no, I didn't need new underwear, but it was a close run thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 It did make me wonder what was to stop some-one claiming that their car was in there and making a claim before hiding their real car out of the way to be mined for parts before quietly being disposed of. .... ANPR records. A great many car parks - and the Liverpool one wouldn't have been much different - use ANPR to issue the personalised ticket that lets you into the place. Fraudulent claims are nothing new, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 ANPR records. A great many car parks - and the Liverpool one wouldn't have been much different - use ANPR to issue the personalised ticket that lets you into the place. Fraudulent claims are nothing new, though. Thats a very good point! I wonder how many chancers dont think about that though? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 ....I wonder how many chancers dont think about that though? It's a bit like the bloke who claimed he was a Grenfell Tower victim. There was no record he was ever a resident there, and hence he was duly charged and prosecuted.... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 While there was thankfully no loss of life, either human or animal, I have to be appalled, if the press reports are correct, that 6 dogs were rescued from cars in the car park, having been left in vehicles while there owners were at the horse show. One person was said to be responsible for four dogs, but was unwilling to give their name to the press, I bet they weren't, something for the RSPCA to look at. On a lighter note, my first car, in 1972, was a 1959 Hillman Minx convertible, bought for £5. Took my mum shopping in Croydon a few days later, and having turned a sharp corner, the engine cut out. I looked under the bonnet and was surprised to see no battery. There was a battery platform, but no battery. After lots of head scratching and searching, found the 12v battery in the boot- on it's side. A previous owner must have changed the location and wiring after a fire, but had omitted to fit any strapping. Luckily no acid leak, stood it up and off we went. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2018 Alas concrete isn't resistant to high temperature fires (as Eurotunnel found out the hard way) - according to several 'net sources, including one drawing data from testing, the following takes place - Below 300C some chemical changes can occur depending on type of aggregate and remaining water content. 300C concrete starts to lose its strength Further chemical changes then at 600C Marked increase in thermal creep, starting temperature for explosive spalling 700C Decomposition of carbonates 800C Ceramic bond 1,200 C Melting begins and melting phase continues up to 1,400C Admittedly these are generally far higher temperatures that concrete would encounter in many structures but the extent of chemical and physical change to concrete is one post-fire assessment method to gauge the temperatures the fire reached reached. So the damage doesn't just come from any temperature effect on rebar but also from the impact of high temperatures on the concrete itself. If spalling is present post-fire then could well be as much due to high temperature as to rebar expanding. That's interesting Mike, I'd forgotten about the tunnel fire. The difference here would be that although there would be very localised areas of high heat, it would dissipate as it was an open car park, the cars would burn fiercely, but only for a short time would it be extreme temperatures. I think I posted before there is nothing 'fireproof' and sprinklers won't stop everything, but they will slow a fire down so that it can be tackled or so that people can escape. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ryde-on-time Posted January 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2018 If the car park owners' lawyers are smart enough, I reckon the company that insures the car that started it all will end up paying for the whole shooting match. John Only if the owner of the vehicle that started it was negligent in some way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chriswright03 Posted January 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2018 Thats a very good point! I wonder how many chancers dont think about that though? Some people are not bright enough to think it through first. In Hull one of the buses had a very minor bump but of course countless people claimed for whiplash. Strangely when it was pointed out that the CCTV did not show them on the bus they backed off! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 And of course the Jaguar Car Factory, long ago. And the World Trade Center towers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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