Car park fire Liverpool

[PhilJ W]

Talking about insurance claims - I would assume that they will all lose their No Claims - unless the claim can be directed at that particular Land Rover's insurers?  And what about cars still in the car park undamaged? If the car park structure is damaged and the cars cannot be retrieved are these undamaged vehicles also to be written off?  For 1400 cars at say an average of £20K each book value - comes to £28 million claim - and that doesnt include personal items or the car park itself.  

 

 

So you are saying that all 1400 were new cars are you?

 

Most would have had a book value considerably less than £10k.

Estimates in todays papers are about the £10 million mark.

 

Do remember that this was parking for the International Horse of the year show, There would be a disproportionate number of Range Rovers, Mercs, and other high end Luxury cars which when new would have cost £100,000 or more. It could mean that he is in fact underestimating...

 

In fact after checking the photos, it is difficult to find a photo that has not got a high end suv in it - usually a Recent Land Rover product where recognisable,

 

Maybe all those Land Rovers parked in one place was an accident waiting to happen...

I did see in the news footage what looked like an older Discovery, apparently not the original cause of the fire though.

[PhilJ W]

Good job it didn't happen in the local Aldi car park. Now that would have been expensive.  

Bernard

No reports either of the locals getting burns trying to remove the wheels.  

[giz]

And the World Trade Center towers

They were steel framed, the floors were concrete but supported by steel trusses.

 

I was at a concrete reseach establishment in France last summer (we were having a timber floor fire tested). There were plenty of remains of fire tested concrete outside, its amazing how much a concrete floor slab can bow when subjected to intense heat.

[Edwin_m]

That's interesting Mike, I'd forgotten about the tunnel fire.

 

The difference here would be that although there would be very localised areas of high heat, it would dissipate as it was an open car park, the cars would burn fiercely, but only for a short time would it be extreme temperatures.

 

I think I posted before there is nothing 'fireproof' and sprinklers won't stop everything, but they will slow a fire down so that it can be tackled or so that people can escape.

The pictures on the BBC appeared to show areas where the concrete had completely vanished and you could see through the reinforcing mesh to the storey below. 

[Edwin_m]

ANPR records. A great many car parks - and the Liverpool one wouldn't have been much different -  use ANPR to issue the personalised ticket that lets you into the place.

 

Fraudulent claims are nothing new, though.

Presumably also the VIN plates would have survived the fire even if the number plates hadn't. 

[chris p bacon]

The pictures on the BBC appeared to show areas where the concrete had completely vanished and you could see through the reinforcing mesh to the storey below. 

 

If you look up at a ceiling in a car park it can resemble an egg box. Some of the panels may only be 150mm thick, so with heat above and below it's not surprising they've blown out as the steel within expands.

[rockershovel]

One problem with CO2 suppressant systems in car parks, is that they are often designed with more-or-less open sides so that exhaust fumes are rapidly dispersed.

[rockershovel]

It did make me wonder what was to stop some-one claiming that their car was in there and making a claim before hiding their real car out of the way to be mined for parts before quietly being disposed of. I can see the parking company's inevitable claim that they take no liability becoming quite tested when the insurance companies come looking to recoup some of their losses. Negligence for having no fire suppression? Failure to provide basic fire extinguishers that could have been used to put out the original fire? Also what about those people who will claim that they lost other assets that were in their cars? There were probably a lot of people with saddles and other horse related gear in there.

 

 

 

 

The cars on the rooftop can always be craned off. All the vehicles need to be removed before the building is demolished so the bigger question is how to remove the charred wrecks. It did make me wonder though why the carpark operators are claiming that all vehicles were destroyed when photos and fire reports verify that those on the top floor are undamaged? I can't imagine that the insurance company will write off undamaged cars quite so readily.

During a recent shipping incident, brand new cars were driven off the vessel to be crushed, because there was no way of verifying the possible consequences of possible damage to the satisfaction of the suppliers insurers. I can’t envisage any insurer approving for future use, any vehicle involved in such an incident.

[jjb1970]

My home state in Australia (and several others, although I can no longer remember which ones, off the top of my head) has no annual inspection requirement for private vehicles. It is noteworthy that there is no statistically significant difference in the prevalence of incidents caused by roadworthiness faults in WA from states with annual inspection regimes. Or at least there wasn't up until 10 years ago when I left the Department which would have been responsible for implementing such a regime. Whilst we don't have the corrosion problems of the UK, believe me that vehicles can deteriorate just as fast from every other cause.

 

Hasn't there been some similar statistics on annual health checks showing that there isn't much of a statistical link between those and better health?

[Southernman46]

Be interesting to see how much quicker the effects of this fire get sorted compared to a certain other recent high profile fire where it feels like the victims are starting to get forgotten about judging by a recent R4 programme article ...............

[PatB]

Hasn't there been some similar statistics on annual health checks showing that there isn't much of a statistical link between those and better health?

 

I believe so, although I've only heard it in passing rather than being professionally involved in the debate.

[Bernard Lamb]

Be interesting to see how much quicker the effects of this fire get sorted compared to a certain other recent high profile fire where it feels like the victims are starting to get forgotten about judging by a recent R4 programme article ...............

 

I do agree, but that is getting a bit political.

My first thought was where are Enterprise going to find 1000 courtesy cars at a few hours notice.

Going by a recent experience insurance companies can get things sorted in 2-3 days.

Bernard

[PhilJ W]

Presumably also the VIN plates would have survived the fire even if the number plates hadn't. 

I wonder if any VIN numbers will not match the documents or even worse turn out to be stolen cars? Not that I'm suggesting that the owners of such vehicles are in any way dishonest, they could well be the innocent victims of 'ringers'. Also if any of these vehicles are 'grey imports' where some of the documentation could well be doubtful it could cause further problems.

[chriswright03]

Having seen first hand the lengths some of the car ringing gangs go to I doubt that most people would be able to tell one way or the other.  I have dealt with such a team in my past and it took the vast experience of our experts to find out what was what.  Some were just lazy though and just changed the number plates i.e. cloned another car but some were devious in the extreme.

[The Stationmaster]

That's interesting Mike, I'd forgotten about the tunnel fire.

 

The difference here would be that although there would be very localised areas of high heat, it would dissipate as it was an open car park, the cars would burn fiercely, but only for a short time would it be extreme temperatures.

 

I think I posted before there is nothing 'fireproof' and sprinklers won't stop everything, but they will slow a fire down so that it can be tackled or so that people can escape.

 

I think the one thing sprinklers could help do is create a water mist which can hopefully help contain the heat and to some extent the fire even if vehicle fuel tanks are involved.  Whether they'd be sufficient to extinguish even the initial vehicle fire is no doubt a very different thing.

 

Incidentally according to what we were told the first Channel Tunnel fire actually damaged/destroyed some of the concrete tunnel lining although fortunately it didn't penetrate all the way through it, this gives some interesting detail -

 

http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/CaseStudy/HistoricFires/InfrastructuralFires/channelTunnel.htm

[Fat Controller]

I think the one thing sprinklers could help do is create a water mist which can hopefully help contain the heat and to some extent the fire even if vehicle fuel tanks are involved.  Whether they'd be sufficient to extinguish even the initial vehicle fire is no doubt a very different thing.

 

Incidentally according to what we were told the first Channel Tunnel fire actually damaged/destroyed some of the concrete tunnel lining although fortunately it didn't penetrate all the way through it, this gives some interesting detail -

 

http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/CaseStudy/HistoricFires/InfrastructuralFires/channelTunnel.htm

I've seen video of the tests being carried out on the 'SAFE' water-misting system pre-installation, and it seems to be very effective; the mist works in two ways, cooling the area of the fire, and replacing the available oxygen with the resultant steam. Hopefully, I'll never have to watch it in action.

I was down the Tunnel within a few days of the 1996 fire, and can confirm there was spalling. What was surreal, however, was the way a tractor-unit would be virtually destroyed, along with the body of the trailer, yet the contents would be seemingly undamaged. Two loads that spring to mind were fresh pineapples and processed cheese slices; there were many comments about the latter being used to repair the lining, as it seemed they were tougher than concrete.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Be interesting to see how much quicker the effects of this fire get sorted compared to a certain other recent high profile fire where it feels like the victims are starting to get forgotten about judging by a recent R4 programme article ...............

 Those of us who are laissez faire free enterprise types would expect this. It's the lumber of state interference that slows, delays, obfuscates. Money and enterprise just get on with sorting it out. We're not called 'the right' for nothing.

 

 

Hasn't there been some similar statistics on annual health checks showing that there isn't much of a statistical link between those and better health?

 Tangential, but as applicable to humans I would suggest that's easily understood. Those who attend for health checks are probably largely those who are already 'in the loop' in terms of paying attention to their health. To make a difference those neglecting their health would need to be physically dragged in, strapped down and probed.

[Intercity125]

The pictures on the BBC appeared to show areas where the concrete had completely vanished and you could see through the reinforcing mesh to the storey below. 

 

I said to my wife that I couldn't understand why the concrete car park would have to be demolished.  Surely to God it would be pretty resistant to a fire, but then I saw the pictures on the BBC as highlighted by Edwin_m in his post and then realised how intense the fire must have been to expose the reinforcing mesh.  At least when they re-build it, they can fit a fire sprinkler system, or have the fire station relocated to next door.

[PhilJ W]

Having seen first hand the lengths some of the car ringing gangs go to I doubt that most people would be able to tell one way or the other.  I have dealt with such a team in my past and it took the vast experience of our experts to find out what was what.  Some were just lazy though and just changed the number plates i.e. cloned another car but some were devious in the extreme.

At the Dagenham town show many years ago (1980's?) the local police were demonstrating how dangerous a 'ringed' car could be. They had a Triumph Dolomite on show that looked in very good condition but was a death trap. The documentation was from an accident write-off but the only part of that car was from the back seat rearwards, the roof and the floorpan were from two other cars, stolen or wrecked but no identification marks. The front end and the mechanicals were from a stolen car. As I said it would have been a death trap, apart from a few tap welds it was held together by filler, the windscreen pillars were virtually all filler. I was told that even if it had hit a bump even at a moderate speed it would have disintegrated.

[PhilJ W]

I've seen video of the tests being carried out on the 'SAFE' water-misting system pre-installation, and it seems to be very effective; the mist works in two ways, cooling the area of the fire, and replacing the available oxygen with the resultant steam. Hopefully, I'll never have to watch it in action.

I was down the Tunnel within a few days of the 1996 fire, and can confirm there was spalling. What was surreal, however, was the way a tractor-unit would be virtually destroyed, along with the body of the trailer, yet the contents would be seemingly undamaged. Two loads that spring to mind were fresh pineapples and processed cheese slices; there were many comments about the latter being used to repair the lining, as it seemed they were tougher than concrete.

I do believe that the fire started in a lorry load of lard.

[Fat Controller]

I do believe that the fire started in a lorry load of lard.

I recollect something about lard; I shall have a look for our copy of the official report. It was striking how little survived of the tractor units.

[petethemole]

"It was striking how little survived of the tractor units."

 

The cabs are GRP. I was watching a repeat of Highway Through Hell last night featuring the recovery of a burnt out American tractor unit that had been reduced to radiator core, engine block/gearbox, chassis frame and axles/wheels.

[EddieB]

I do believe that the fire started in a lorry load of lard.

  

I think the one thing sprinklers could help do is create a water mist which can hopefully help contain the heat and to some extent the fire even if vehicle fuel tanks are involved.  Whether they'd be sufficient to extinguish even the initial vehicle fire is no doubt a very different thing.

With fires originating in vehicles and their various cargoes, couldn’t water sprinklers sometimes have the effect of throwing water on a chip-pan fire?

[rockershovel]

Anyone with sufficient experience of offshore life will testify to the indestructibility of tinned pineapple and processed cheese! Like Spam (something of a rarity these days, I’m happy to say) they pass unscathed through any sort of cooking process ... perhaps to form the diet of the cockroaches which will proverbially survive a nuclear holocaust?

 

Regarding the crushed cars on the ferry, I heard that the police took a close interest is ensuring that the VIN went to the crusher with the rest of the cars...

[62613]

They were steel framed, the floors were concrete but supported by steel trusses.

 

I was at a concrete reseach establishment in France last summer (we were having a timber floor fire tested). There were plenty of remains of fire tested concrete outside, its amazing how much a concrete floor slab can bow when subjected to intense heat.

If you go on the piece quoted in the Wobbly Bridges thread, it remarks that the towers did their job in standing up to the impact of a plane; it was the subsequent fire that weakened the structure