Great Southern Railway (Fictitious) - Signalling the changes...

[Skinnylinny]

One thing I have noticed while working on these horseboxes (especially the D81/273 as shown below) is the difference in roof heights and rooflines between the various designs of vehicles - the horsebox in question here is a Billinton design, and the prototype stands 10 inches taller than the Stroudley coaches it's pictured next to! 
 

The body heights of the two horseboxes are the same, but the rooflines are rather different, with a taller arch on the Billinton one, giving it five inches more height than the Stroudley horsebox (posed on a Hornby wagon chassis pending design of the correct chassis).

 

 

The Stroudley coaches are 11' 2½" tall from rail level (ignoring lamps), while the D53 horsebox is 11' 11½", and the D81/273 is a soaring 12' 4½" tall! Going back in time, some of the early Craven coaches barely hit 10' in height, and these could be seen in the same trains as the Stroudleys on occasion, as seen in this photo of Victoria station:

 

The second coach is a Craven First-class coach, and the third is a Stroudley five-compartment (possibly a Third?).

Edited April 29, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[Edwardian]

Brilliant, Linny

 

A present where a scratch-built Brighton horse box was one of dozens of projects beyond the distant horizon to one where I may end up with two different types.  Bravo!

Edited April 29, 2018 by Edwardian

[Skinnylinny]

Well, the kit for the D81/273 horsebox is now available, at a price of £8. This has a fair few tiny, fiddly pieces which need careful lining up to get a good finish.

 

 

 

I've just finished designing another Stroudley carriage (well, almost) - a D47 full brake for £9. Coming in at only 20 feet, it's 6' shorter than the standard 26-foot Stroudley coaches, so good for when your platforms are a little tight! The photo shows the test model still under construction, although this build was purely done to check the fit of the components. Why not add some luggage space to your LB&SCR train?



 

[Edwardian]

Brilliant, Linny

 

As in .....

[Skinnylinny]

You mean like this? 

 

 

IKEA announce their new range of Cøåch Kytts - flat-pack model railway carriages...

[Edwardian]

Just waiting for Dapol to spoil it all by releasing a canary yellow Terrier!

Edited April 30, 2018 by Edwardian

[Hroth]

Just waiting for Dapol to spoil it all be releasing a canary yellow Terrier!

Tweet!

[Hroth]

Well, the kit for the D81/273 horsebox is now available, at a price of £8. This has a fair few tiny, fiddly pieces which need careful lining up to get a good finish.

 

IMG_20180429_203505220_BURST000_COVER_TOP.jpg

 

IMG_20180415_230617531.jpg

 

I've just finished designing another Stroudley carriage (well, almost) - a D47 full brake for £9. Coming in at only 20 feet, it's 6' shorter than the standard 26-foot Stroudley coaches, so good for when your platforms are a little tight! The photo shows the test model still under construction, although this build was purely done to check the fit of the components. Why not add some luggage space to your LB&SCR train?

 

IMG_20180429_180308225.jpg

 

 

I DO like those..........

[Compound2632]

Horseboxes do tend to be quite tall at the eves - this has to do with horses being quite tall.

[Regularity]

Well, you’ve got to hand it to them, I suppose...

[Caley Jim]

Where's the 'groan' button when you need it!

 

Jim

[Regularity]

Not the first time someone has said that in response to one of my posts!

 

And it won’t be the last!

[Skinnylinny]

Moving on from horseboxes (which are still ongoing projects), I received a parcel from 247 developments yesterday (excellent service, I only placed the order on Friday!) with some LBSC-pattern bogies. Going back a few pages, those with good memories may remember the below 48-foot coaches I had drawn up:



I'd been pondering how to go about fitting these with bogies, even going so far as to draw up a fully-card-built bogie (!) but overall I wasn't convinced as these were a) very fiddly, b) very easy to make a ****-up of, and c) didn't run very well! These are all obviated by using these rather nice cast-whitemetal bogies. They're not the cheapest bits at £7 a pair, but I drew up a prototype chassis today on the bus between work and the hacklab (home of the laser cutter) and cut it out of 3mm thick MDF (making a change from the previous card) to see if this would offer enough strength - I was a little uneasy about a card chassis on so long a vehicle.

The prototype chassis with whitemetal bogies (although I've used bits of sprue as bogie pivots pending my 2mm bolts arriving in the post!) looks something like this:



and with the lavatory composite bodyshell (minus roof) on tops, like this:



Initial tests were very promising, with the vehicle being very free-running, with a fair amount of weight low-down in the bogies. It ran very sweetly through Peco small-radius streamline points, but it failed on the acid-test: I want it to run through 2nd-radius curves. This might seem an odd thing, especially for kit-built stock, but my logic is that if the coaches will run through 2nd radius curves, they'll run through Hornby and Peco set-track points, which will open them up to being used by more modellers who work in restricted spaces, as well as them still being accessible as starter kits. I *think* it should be possible to shave half a millimeter off the inside of the solebars - that's all it seems to need to run smoothly. The wheels turn but rub a little on the insides of the solebars on 2nd radius curved track, as seen here:

 

A block of solid steel (used to hold down track being glued in place) provided a quick test of the chassis strength, causing the wood to flex by under a millimeter, so I'm convinced the MDF will do find for building a chassis. 

 

Finally, shown next to a completed Stroudley coach, these Billinton 48-footers can be seen to be slightly higher, although they are still not as tall as the Billinton horsebox!



Now to get on to figuring out the underframe gubbins...

Edited May 1, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[Annie]

What a pity, - I can only award you just the one 'craftsmanship/clever' icon.

 

I was looking at some Stroudley coach kits on the Smallbrook site this week and they're wanting $30.00 each for a coach kit so I think you're onto a winner Linny.

[Nick Holliday]

I'd been pondering how to go about fitting these with bogies, even going so far as to draw up a fully-card-built bogie (!) but overall I wasn't convinced as these were a) very fiddly, b) very easy to make a ****-up of, and c) didn't run very well! These are all obviated by using these rather nice cast-whitemetal bogies. They're not the cheapest bits at £7 a pair, but I drew up a prototype chassis today on the bus between work and the hacklab (home of the laser cutter) and cut it out of 3mm thick MDF (making a change from the previous card) to see if this would offer enough strength - I was a little uneasy about a card chassis on so long a vehicle.

The prototype chassis with whitemetal bogies (although I've used bits of sprue as bogie pivots pending my 2mm bolts arriving in the post!) and with the lavatory composite bodyshell (minus roof) on tops, like this:

Bogies2.jpg

Initial tests were very promising, with the vehicle being very free-running, with a fair amount of weight low-down in the bogies. It ran very sweetly through Peco small-radius streamline points, but it failed on the acid-test: I want it to run through 2nd-radius curves. This might seem an odd thing, especially for kit-built stock, but my logic is that if the coaches will run through 2nd radius curves, they'll run through Hornby and Peco set-track points, which will open them up to being used by more modellers who work in restricted spaces, as well as them still being accessible as starter kits. I *think* it should be possible to shave half a millimeter off the inside of the solebars - that's all it seems to need to run smoothly. The wheels turn but rub a little on the insides of the solebars on 2nd radius curved track, as seen here:

IMG_20180501_210051245.jpg

 

A block of solid steel (used to hold down track being glued in place) provided a quick test of the chassis strength, causing the wood to flex by under a millimeter, so I'm convinced the MDF will do find for building a chassis.

Finally, shown next to a completed Stroudley coach, these Billinton 48-footers can be seen to be slightly higher, although they are still not as tall as the Billinton horsebox!

IMG_20180501_222900430_LL.jpg

Now to get on to figuring out the underframe gubbins...

Have you checked the actual height of the buffers on the bogie stock. It looks as if it might be roughly the same as the four wheeler, but the latter's buffer height, at least on the earlier suburban sets, was a couple of inches lower than the later standard around 3' 6", which is why the Terriers had to have their buffers raised to run with the railmotors. This might give you the half millimetre you're after.

[Edwardian]

How does the height from rail level compare with the drawings you have?

 

It is looking good.

 

I am very excited. I checked my stash and find that I have 8 pairs of 247 Developments LBSC 8' Fox Bogies!  Yay!

 

Need to think about roof fittings, buffers, door and grab handles etc.

 

Roxey don't advertise separate parts, e.g. grab rails - did you 'phone up and ask?

 

From where did you order the 2mm bolts, may I ask?

[Skinnylinny]

How does the height from rail level compare with the drawings you have?

 

It is looking good.

 

I am very excited. I checked my stash and find that I have 8 pairs of 247 Developments LBSC 8' Fox Bogies!  Yay!

 

Need to think about roof fittings, buffers, door and grab handles etc.

 

Roxey don't advertise separate parts, e.g. grab rails - did you 'phone up and ask?

 

From where did you order the 2mm bolts, may I ask?

 

The height above rail height for these bogie coaches seems to be 3'6" (as per the drawings) - I'll double check. The Stroudleys also seem to have the same buffer height (± about an inch) - I say approximately as none of the Stroudley 4-wheel drawings in the book actually show the buffer height! However, when the drawings are scales into my CAD software based on the other dimensions, the buffer height comes out at 14mm (=3'6"). I'll have another check of the drawings this evening. If it turns out my Stroudleys are too tall, I'll re-draw the chassis and replace any chassis parts I've sent out already. I don't think anyone who's bought them has mentioned having started building yet...

 

Roxey's site can be a little tricky to navigate. From their home page, clicking the 4mm SCALE/00 GAUGE button brings up a drop-down menu. From that, select 4MM SCALE ACCESSORIES and then on the page that loads, click 4mm SCALE ETCHED ACCESSORIES by Roxey Mouldings to bring you to this page where you'll find etched screw-link couplings, SR route discs, safety chain eyes and hooks, etched door handles and, most importantly, several variants of grab handles.

 

The 2mm bolts are from eBay and I'll check the length when they arrive to ensure I recommend the correct length bolts.

 

5&9 produce Billinton lamp tops, and I'm still looking for a supplier of buffers, as the ones in the drawings and photographs don't appear to be Stroudley buffers. If absolutely necessary, I may end up trying to produce my own, although I'd prefer to support other small traders with more experience in the materials than myself! I note that Markits produce 4MB051 LBSCR/SECR Round Head Coach Buffers but I've not been able to find decent photos of these to determine if they're the correct style for these bogie coaches.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[Edwardian]

The height above rail height for these bogie coaches seems to be 3'6" (as per the drawings) - I'll double check. The Stroudleys also seem to have the same buffer height (± about an inch) - I say approximately as none of the Stroudley 4-wheel drawings in the book actually show the buffer height! However, when the drawings are scales into my CAD software based on the other dimensions, the buffer height comes out at 14mm (=3'6"). I'll have another check of the drawings this evening. If it turns out my Stroudleys are too tall, I'll re-draw the chassis and replace any chassis parts I've sent out already. I don't think anyone who's bought them has mentioned having started building yet...

 

Roxey's site can be a little tricky to navigate. From their home page, clicking the 4mm SCALE/00 GAUGE button brings up a drop-down menu. From that, select 4MM SCALE ACCESSORIES and then on the page that loads, click 4mm SCALE ETCHED ACCESSORIES by Roxey Mouldings to bring you to this page where you'll find etched screw-link couplings, SR route discs, safety chain eyes and hooks, etched door handles and, most importantly, several variants of grab handles.

 

The 2mm bolts are from eBay and I'll check the length when they arrive to ensure I recommend the correct length bolts.

 

5&9 produce Billinton lamp tops, and I'm still looking for a supplier of buffers, as the ones in the drawings and photographs don't appear to be Stroudley buffers. If absolutely necessary, I may end up trying to produce my own, although I'd prefer to support other small traders with more experience in the materials than myself! I note that Markits produce 4MB051 LBSCR/SECR Round Head Coach Buffers but I've not been able to find decent photos of these to determine if they're the correct style for these bogie coaches.

 

All very useful, thank you Linny.  If we can come up with decent drawings of the buffers, we can ask Guy Rixon of this parish if he would consider a 3D print. 

[Skinnylinny]

I'll have a look at my books when I get home this evening and see what I can find out!

Also, I'm planning on a visit to the Bluebell Railway in July, so I will be getting in touch at some point soon to see if there's any chance of getting up close and personal to their Billinton 48' First coach no. 142. It's been restored into SR condition but there may be some useful information to glean from it!

Edited May 2, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[Skinnylinny]

Have you checked the actual height of the buffers on the bogie stock. It looks as if it might be roughly the same as the four wheeler, but the latter's buffer height, at least on the earlier suburban sets, was a couple of inches lower than the later standard around 3' 6", which is why the Terriers had to have their buffers raised to run with the railmotors. This might give you the half millimetre you're after.

 

I had a chance to get at the (printed, published) 4mm scale drawings today, and the Stroudley 4-wheelers I've modelled (not the earlier suburban sets but the "mainline" stock) have been drawn with their buffer centres at 3'6" (±1" as that's the limit I can measure to!) above rail level. Looks like I won't have to re-draw the chassis after all.

 

I managed to find what's mainly a sketch drawing of a Billinton buffer in Carriage Stock of the LB&SCR (PJ Newbury, Oakwood Press) at 1/8 full scale (!) so in the worst case I could try to have some made up.

 

I also did another drawing last night of a D88 non-lavatory composite, bringing the 48' coaches to a total of 5. Next up will be a 54' Brake Third, to allow the makeup of several 2-coach sets. In the meantime:

 

 

From top to bottom:

 

D49 First

D159 Brake 3rd (will be modified to produce D158 as well)

D161 Third

D90 Lavatory Composite

D88 Composite

 

This evening's job is to re-draw the 48' solebar/underframe to see if it's possible to make it go around 2nd radius curves.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Skinnylinny

[mikeandnel]

I had a chance to get at the (printed, published) 4mm scale drawings today, and the Stroudley 4-wheelers I've modelled (not the earlier suburban sets but the "mainline" stock) have been drawn with their buffer centres at 3'6" (±1" as that's the limit I can measure to!) above rail level. Looks like I won't have to re-draw the chassis after all.

 

I managed to find what's mainly a sketch drawing of a Billinton buffer in Carriage Stock of the LB&SCR (PJ Newbury, Oakwood Press) at 1/8 full scale (!) so in the worst case I could try to have some made up.

 

I also did another drawing last night of a D88 non-lavatory composite, bringing the 48' coaches to a total of 5. Next up will be a 54' Brake Third, to allow the makeup of several 2-coach sets. In the meantime:

 

48 foot sides.png

 

From top to bottom:

 

D49 First

D159 Brake 3rd (will be modified to produce D158 as well)

D161 Third

D90 Lavatory Composite

D88 Composite

 

This evening's job is to re-draw the 48' solebar/underframe to see if it's possible to make it go around 2nd radius curves.

 

Linny

Sounds as if you are enjoying developing these carriages. Any thoughts about going the other way into the Craven era?

Michael

[Skinnylinny]

Michael,

I am rather enjoying this! There's something supremely satisfying about putting a sheet of card into the laser and watching the design appear out of thin air, plus the satisfaction of making these models (hopefully!) more approachable.

I have some drawings of Craven stock although if I were to produce Craven coaches they'd probably end up being more akin to "scratch aids" than true kits - I'm unconvinced by card's ability to make good strong footboards so might provide a bending template for some wire supports and dimensions for brass strip footboards, but this would pull the kits away from the "no soldering required" line a bit.

[mikeandnel]

Michael,

 

I am rather enjoying this! There's something supremely satisfying about putting a sheet of card into the laser and watching the design appear out of thin air, plus the satisfaction of making these models (hopefully!) more approachable.

 

I have some drawings of Craven stock although if I were to produce Craven coaches they'd probably end up being more akin to "scratch aids" than true kits - I'm unconvinced by card's ability to make good strong footboards so might provide a bending template for some wire supports and dimensions for brass strip footboards, but this would pull the kits away from the "no soldering required" line a bit.

 

Sounds good to me and an ideal compromise

Michael

[Nick Holliday]

The height above rail height for these bogie coaches seems to be 3'6" (as per the drawings) - I'll double check. The Stroudleys also seem to have the same buffer height (± about an inch) - I say approximately as none of the Stroudley 4-wheel drawings in the book actually show the buffer height! However, when the drawings are scales into my CAD software based on the other dimensions, the buffer height comes out at 14mm (=3'6"). I'll have another check of the drawings this evening. If it turns out my Stroudleys are too tall, I'll re-draw the chassis and replace any chassis parts I've sent out already. I don't think anyone who's bought them has mentioned having started building yet.

 

Roxey's site can be a little tricky to navigate. From their home page, clicking the 4mm SCALE/00 GAUGE button brings up a drop-down menu. From that, select 4MM SCALE ACCESSORIES and then on the page that loads, click 4mm SCALE ETCHED ACCESSORIES by Roxey Mouldings to bring you to this page where you'll find etched screw-link couplings, SR route discs, safety chain eyes and hooks, etched door handles and, most importantly, several variants of grab handles.

The 2mm bolts are from eBay and I'll check the length when they arrive to ensure I recommend the correct length bolts.

 

5&9 produce Billinton lamp tops, and I'm still looking for a supplier of buffers, as the ones in the drawings and photographs don't appear to be Stroudley buffers. If absolutely necessary, I may end up trying to produce my own, although I'd prefer to support other small traders with more experience in the materials than myself! I note that Markits produce 4MB051 LBSCR/SECR Round Head Coach Buffers but I've not been able to find decent photos of these to determine if they're the correct style for these bogie coaches.

I don't think you need to worry too much about the Stroudley buffer height, since this would vary with wear, load and spring strength. By the time they got to the Isle of Wight they were much heavier, with battery boxes etc. and the height would have been standardised, as the lower height would have caused problems. This would probably been attended to some time earlier, particularly as the sets were broken up and changed. I also suspect that many of your customers will be using more robust etched w-irons, and could then make their own decisions as to what the height should be for their requirements.

Although Roxey don't have fittings shown on their website, Dave Hamersley is usually very helpful, and perhaps a telephone or email enquiry could get you the parts you want, although to an extent he would be helping his competition. Similarly, Branchlines can, as far as I know, supply their castings separately, and this would certainly resolve your hunt for Billinton style buffers, as save re-inventing the wheel. Another possible source is London Road Models, who have etched kits for a couple of Stroudley designs, although the buffers in the examples I bought were sprung, requiring the cast brass housing to be drilled to take the buffer head itself.

I don't quite understand your comment re 5&9 castings. The proprietor, Chris Cox, works closely with fellow members of the Brighton Circle, and supplies fittings to go with other people's kits (EBM and Ian MacCormac) and seems to meet their requirements. The drawing on his website matches those in published drawings, for the original type, and should be ideal for your kits.

[Skinnylinny]

I don't think you need to worry too much about the Stroudley buffer height, since this would vary with wear, load and spring strength. By the time they got to the Isle of Wight they were much heavier, with battery boxes etc. and the height would have been standardised, as the lower height would have caused problems. This would probably been attended to some time earlier, particularly as the sets were broken up and changed. I also suspect that many of your customers will be using more robust etched w-irons, and could then make their own decisions as to what the height should be for their requirements.

Although Roxey don't have fittings shown on their website, Dave Hamersley is usually very helpful, and perhaps a telephone or email enquiry could get you the parts you want, although to an extent he would be helping his competition. Similarly, Branchlines can, as far as I know, supply their castings separately, and this would certainly resolve your hunt for Billinton style buffers, as save re-inventing the wheel. Another possible source is London Road Models, who have etched kits for a couple of Stroudley designs, although the buffers in the examples I bought were sprung, requiring the cast brass housing to be drilled to take the buffer head itself.

I don't quite understand your comment re 5&9 castings. The proprietor, Chris Cox, works closely with fellow members of the Brighton Circle, and supplies fittings to go with other people's kits (EBM and Ian MacCormac) and seems to meet their requirements. The drawing on his website matches those in published drawings, for the original type, and should be ideal for your kits.

 

I think the misunderstanding may have been that the drawings I have for the Billinton coaches show buffers with a much shorter shaft than Chris' excellent Stroudley ones. I'm happy to recommend Chris' buffers for my Stroudley coaches.

Roxey do show fittings on their website for certain parts (including grab rails and door handles), and again, they're recommended in the kit instructions.

 

As for the etched vs. card W irons, I'm happy to see people using my kits however they see fit - they're not intended as super-fine-scale models, but rather as a starter step in kit building, to let beginners have something suitable to run with a very popular little tank engine (the Hornby, and probably soon Dapol) terrier, which currently has no suitable RTR passenger stock available. The main aim here is simplicity and beginner-friendliness, and if I can provide as much as possible to provide a running model, then I've achieved my goal.

 

How much extra work people want to put into it is up to them - I'd love to see some of the Stroudleys with etched W irons, cast springs and axleboxes, safety chains and screw-links, and see what can be made of them!