Time to bring back design clever?

[009 micro modeller]

Judging by the comments on the Hornby Class 800 thread, Design Stupid has taken over...

Given the mess of specifying and designing the real thing, surely that makes it more realistic...

[PatB]

There is a company using common tooling to serve different price points quite successfully, Scale Trains. For example their SD40-2 in rivet counter and operator versions:

 

https://www.scaletrains.com/pages/ho-emd-sd40-2

 

They also did a museum edition for the UP gas turbine models. So far they appear to have been well received by NA modellers and both series seem to sell out.

 

I like that. Good, basic models for those on a budget who want something that works and looks OK from "normal viewing distances", and all the fruit for those who want/can afford it. It's notable that the price difference is substantial. I wonder if that's a realistic reflection of the different manufacturing costs.

 

It would be nice to see a similar approach in UK outline 00 but I suspect that the market for most prototypes just wouldn't be big enough to justify two versions.

[Ouroborus]

 

As time passes, the hobby is inexorably being "shorn of nostalgia", for both the railways of ones own youth and rose-tinted imaginings of earlier times inculcated by older mentors.

 

The pertinent questions are surely,

 

 

 

4. What effect will the Thomas factor and the "visiting-heritage-railways-as-a-kid" factor have in the future, and will it be enough?

 

 

 

John

 

 

I  have 2 boys (13 and 9) who were Thomas mad when younger.  Neither have any interest in model railways/toy trains now.  Its xbox all the way, insta, snap etc.

 

 

As a younger modeller (under 21) I would think that the idea of railways no longer being seen as 'cool' is part of the reason why fewer people get into the hobby. However, just as 00 replaced 0 gauge as the popular train set scale, N gauge is now a viable option for those starting out (I've seen a couple of good N gauge layouts built by people new to the hobby), and there are generally more options even within model railways than there once were. Personally, I started out with some Hornby 0-4-0s (secondhand purchases, something made easier by Ebay and also decreasing the market for new stuff) and some of my Dad's old stuff, before deciding to go down the narrow gauge route in 009. I'm glad I did, in retrospect, as I feel that I have developed more skills, spent less money, had more fun and made more distinctive/unusual models due to the relative lack of RTR equipment. I quite enjoy the process of making something though so this will not work for those who want to get a layout running more quickly, but even in 009 there is now more RTR than a few years ago.

 

From this Gen-X'er it would seem that there is a huge pressure on younger generations to live their lives in a way identical to their peers.  Not only 'must' that phone be an iPhone, or an iPhone 8, it most be an iPhone 8xyz.  You 'must' document your life on insta and if you don't get enough likes, you're a zero.  And that's a real shame because it seems like we're getting a generation of clones (and i include my eldest child in this).  

 

​I applaud 009 Micro Modeller and others who are strong enough to stand up and say "i like model trains, what of it?".  This hobby and many others need it.  Whether it be trains, planes, knitting, cooking, we need the younger generations to come in and take an interest, otherwise like us, the manufacturers will die out, design clever or otherwise

[sidmouth]

For my hard earned ££ I'd prefer models that whilst looking the part were reliable and lasted a reasonable length of time. My triang, Airfix, Mainline and Hornby is still going strong . I suspect my more recent purchases may not last that long 

[tomparryharry]

There is a company using common tooling to serve different price points quite successfully, Scale Trains. For example their SD40-2 in rivet counter and operator versions:

 

https://www.scaletrains.com/pages/ho-emd-sd40-2

 

They also did a museum edition for the UP gas turbine models. So far they appear to have been well received by NA modellers and both series seem to sell out.

That is an interesting thought:- "Rivet Counter and Operator versions".

 

Is there any further information to expound this?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Robin Brasher]

For my hard earned ££ I'd prefer models that whilst looking the part were reliable and lasted a reasonable length of time. My triang, Airfix, Mainline and Hornby is still going strong . I suspect my more recent purchases may not last that long 

If my recent purchases last as long as my Hornby-Dublo Barnstaple I will be 120 years old before they expire.

 

I am in the process of part exchanging my 40 year Kneller Hall for a Rood Ashton Hall which I think was at the heart of the design clever saga. It costs the same as a highly detailed Hornby locomotive but Hornby have cut corners with the cab detail and lack of separate tender handrails. From the reviews I think it looks and runs better than Kneller Hall.

[Legend]

I've been buying old Wrenn wagons . Good runners , look ok , I'm not a rivet counter and a fraction of cost of new Bachmann, which is what I used to buy until the prices shot up.

[jjb1970]

That is an interesting thought:- "Rivet Counter and Operator versions".

 

Is there any further information to expound this?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

Scale Trains is a relatively new company, and they seem to be doing things their own way. They seem to have pulled off the rather difficult trick of offering very high levels of detail and finish at pretty competitive prices and using a common base model to serve multiple price points (they had a museum edition above the rivet counter level for the gas turbine they did.

 

I think Piko and Scale Trains demonstrate two concomitant truths, namely that because one company cannot make a success of something doesn't mean other companies also can't do it, and because a company does make a success of an idea doesn't mean other companies will also be able to do it.

 

Piko have successfully (very successfully) developed a three tier product range in HO, going from entry level Hobby, mid-upper tier Expert and top end Classic. Scale Trains are demonstratin that it is possible to use a common base model to serve different price points. The fact that these two companies have done it doesn't mean Hornby can necessarily do it, but it does demonstrate that the ideas can work if well executed.

 

I thought at the time and still believe that a big part of the problem with "design clever" was that it was badly executed and that if well executed the idea could've worked. We often see comments to the effect that because company xyz say's something can't be done then that must mean it is a general truth. It may be true for company xyz but it may mean nothing at all for any other company. Companies have different managerial and operational capabilities and expertise, different levels of design expertise, different distribution arrangements, different cost bases etc and there is no such thing as a standardised, fixed cost of manufacturing.

 

All of which is a long winded way of saying that these ideas work for some companies, they didn't work for Hornby but that may say more about how Hornby did it rather than the ideas. Or maybe not. My head is spinning now

[adb968008]

The SD40-2 is the class 47 of America though.. it’s everywhere everything, every colour, i’m Not sure the idea would work as well with say a class 26 or say a GP-15.

 

Interesting the “upgrade” kit * at $29.99, really is no different to the bag of bits we get over here in the box.. it’s a dangerous precedent if that catches on over here. The “self assembly” difference is $40 / £30, for basically a set of extra sprues.

 

So if you buy the expert at $150, convert to £, add 20% UK VAT you end up with a GBP of £130.

That’s not far out of the UK price.

 

It would put the $79.99 converted to gbp + vat to £70.

 

It sounds cheap and it’s a big difference, but the US is a big market and this is a popular type of loco... I suspect economies of scale / market share competition are making this possible.

 

Similarly culturally the US is less inclined to DIY, and the desire to upgrade/upsell is more the norm... it’s quite possible that for a difference of fifty bucks, people will chose the high end, as getting someone to do it for them at US salary rates would be economically not worth the hassle.

 

Here in the UK, were a bit more prepared to DIY even if it saved a fiver, which means if this was offered in the UK market, high end would be dead in the water, everyone would be buying cheap, but the reality is we’re getting the operator quality model already, as it comes with pretty much the equivalent bits in the bag to self attach already, were just getting it at rivet counter price.

 

* Kit is air hoses, windscreen wipers etc

https://www.scaletrains.com/collections/operator-ho-scale-emd-sd40-2/products/operator-ho-emd-sd40-2-detail-upgrade-kit

Edited March 6, 2018 by adb968008

[adb968008]

For my hard earned ££ I'd prefer models that whilst looking the part were reliable and lasted a reasonable length of time. My triang, Airfix, Mainline and Hornby is still going strong . I suspect my more recent purchases may not last that long

 

It all depends on how they are looked after.

It’s hard to break something that’s moulded on, or excluded altogether.

 

A super detailed model has longevity by nature that it will be handled more delicately, and has a higher residual value.

The older stuff is more likely to end up in the bin long before it breaks.

Edited March 6, 2018 by adb968008

[YesTor]

Wow!  The 'museum quality' variations are really quite something...!

 

https://www.scaletrains.com/collections/museum-quality-gtel-8500-hp-big-blow-turbine/products/ho-union-pacific-gtel-8500-horsepower-big-blow-turbine-3

[009 micro modeller]

I have 2 boys (13 and 9) who were Thomas mad when younger. Neither have any interest in model railways/toy trains now. Its xbox all the way, insta, snap etc.

 

 

 

From this Gen-X'er it would seem that there is a huge pressure on younger generations to live their lives in a way identical to their peers. Not only 'must' that phone be an iPhone, or an iPhone 8, it most be an iPhone 8xyz. You 'must' document your life on insta and if you don't get enough likes, you're a zero. And that's a real shame because it seems like we're getting a generation of clones (and i include my eldest child in this).

 

​I applaud 009 Micro Modeller and others who are strong enough to stand up and say "i like model trains, what of it?". This hobby and many others need it. Whether it be trains, planes, knitting, cooking, we need the younger generations to come in and take an interest, otherwise like us, the manufacturers will die out, design clever or otherwise

I think in some ways I am part of the problem though - kitbashing in 009 is not going to sustain the mainstream RTR market (not that I would change my modelling interests purely to do that). A couple of other younger 009 modellers I have spoken with also seem to like the process of making something as opposed to having it and it is a niche interest. I wouldn't say we stand up and loudly promote the hobby though. However I think there are less people now (especially among the younger generation) who are what you might call casually interested - i.e. they have a basic layout they sometimes run and collect and perhaps repaint a bit of stock but aren't seriously in to the more complex or specific side of things. I would think this is to do with increased costs - to want to spend money you have to know you really want to get in to model railways, and focussing your interests probably keeps things slightly cheaper. I don't claim to be hugely skilled or advanced, but I think the smaller numbers of younger modellers now seem to have more niche interests as they are more into model railways - for me in 009, others possibly also in relatively (compared to 00 train set market) specialised areas. The above is based on personal observation and it's possible I'm not seeing the full picture but it does seem to be getting like this.

[YesTor]

Interesting the “upgrade” kit * at $29.99, really is no different to the bag of bits we get over here in the box.. it’s a dangerous precedent if that catches on over here. The “self assembly” difference is $40 / £30, for basically a set of extra sprues.

 

I think it's a bit more than just a 'bag of bits', certainly on the GE Tier 4 GEVo ET44 anyway as there appears to be a lot of moulded-on detail and grilles as opposed to etched grilles and etched fittings, cab detail, engine room detail etc.  Either way though it seems a pretty good concept if the market will support the two distinct levels of detail/features of any one type of locomotive.

[jjb1970]

The SD40-2 is the class 47 of America though.. it’s everywhere everything, every colour, i’m Not sure the idea would work as well with say a class 26 or say a GP-15.

 

Interesting the “upgrade” kit * at $29.99, really is no different to the bag of bits we get over here in the box.. it’s a dangerous precedent if that catches on over here. The “self assembly” difference is $40 / £30, for basically a set of extra sprues.

 

So if you buy the expert at $150, convert to £, add 20% UK VAT you end up with a GBP of £130.

That’s not far out of the UK price.

 

It would put the $79.99 converted to gbp + vat to £70.

 

It sounds cheap and it’s a big difference, but the US is a big market and this is a popular type of loco... I suspect economies of scale / market share competition are making this possible.

 

Similarly culturally the US is less inclined to DIY, and the desire to upgrade/upsell is more the norm... it’s quite possible that for a difference of fifty bucks, people will chose the high end, as getting someone to do it for them at US salary rates would be economically not worth the hassle.

 

Here in the UK, were a bit more prepared to DIY even if it saved a fiver, which means if this was offered in the UK market, high end would be dead in the water, everyone would be buying cheap, but the reality is we’re getting the operator quality model already, as it comes with pretty much the equivalent bits in the bag to self attach already, were just getting it at rivet counter price.

 

* Kit is air hoses, windscreen wipers etc

https://www.scaletrains.com/collections/operator-ho-scale-emd-sd40-2/products/operator-ho-emd-sd40-2-detail-upgrade-kit

 

The SD40-2 is an example, but Scale Trains appear to have adopted this as their standard approach, even their wagons (or at least some I've looked at, can't say all as I haven't looked) are done in both operator and rivet counter versions. The SD40-2 is a lot more varied than it may appear, they include the CSX SD40-3 and NS Admirals cab variants which have completely different cabs and the Southern high hood versions as well as the less obvious road specific variations. Which indicates a good degree of design cleverness as not only are they serving different price points, the tooling has been designed to allow for a whole range of road specific variations to the basic tooling.

 

I tend to believe the NA market is bigger than ours however somebody disputed that earlier in the thread and I've never actually looked at any figures. However, regardless of how big the NA market is, if we stay with the SD40-2 the Scale Trains model follows the high end models already made by BLI, Intermountain, Bowser and Kato, the lower end offering of Bachmann. Go further back and there were some superb brass versions by Overland, the classic Athearn blue box models, various shells etc so the Scale Trains releases dropped into a market where there was already no shortage of SD40-2 models from body shells through to high end brass. Yet despite that, Scale Trains appear to have found their own niche for both the rivet counter and operator offerings.

 

Whether it would work for the UK who knows? If done well I think it could work. There are plenty of British model enthusiasts who want RTR to mean exactly that, they take it out of a box and either play with it or display it (and I don't say that as a criticism). Then the spectrum goes all the way to scratch building via detailing, repainting, converting, kit building etc). The basic concept of adapting a product to suit different segments appears to have some validity. Like I say whether or not it would work for other companies I don't know as such an assertion would assume that all companies are equal and have the same product development and manufacturing processes, the same degree of leadership talent and expectations for sales and returns etc which is obviously not the case. However what Scale Trains show is that it is possible for such a concept to work.

[Colin_McLeod]

Wow!  The 'museum quality' variations are really quite something...!

 

https://www.scaletrains.com/collections/museum-quality-gtel-8500-hp-big-blow-turbine/products/ho-union-pacific-gtel-8500-horsepower-big-blow-turbine-3

I like the concept of the colour matching to available paints for easy touch up.

[adb968008]

The SD40-2 is an example, but Scale Trains appear to have adopted this as their standard approach, even their wagons (or at least some I've looked at, can't say all as I haven't looked) are done in both operator and rivet counter versions.

Given typical length US trains*, if economies of scales doesn’t work on US railroad car sales then there is no hope for any of us.

 

* some trains can be a mile or more in length, Norfolk Southern allowed 150+ cars and impossible for a modeller to recreate on any layout, but as many US modellers benefit from much larger premises (and cheaper land to build) than here in the UK, they have greater ability to make a longer layout and longer trains than we do in Europe with our tiny homes... which means greater volume of wagon sales which greater supports this business model, indeed even recreating a 30 car train would take a modeller an extraordinary amount of time to fit detailing to the point I suspect they would be sick of it and order Rivet counter instead, especially if they had 12 or so different trains in the fiddle yards !!!

Edited March 7, 2018 by adb968008

[autocoach]

Given typical length US trains*, if economies of scales doesn’t work on US railroad car sales then there is no hope for any of us.

 

* some trains can be a mile or more in length, Norfolk Southern allowed 150+ cars and impossible for a modeller to recreate on any layout, but as many US modellers benefit from much larger premises (and cheaper land to build) than here in the UK, they have greater ability to make a longer layout and longer trains than we do in Europe with our tiny homes... which means greater volume of wagon sales which greater supports this business model, indeed even recreating a 30 car train would take a modeller an extraordinary amount of time to fit detailing to the point I suspect they would be sick of it and order Rivet counter instead, especially if they had 12 or so different trains in the fiddle yards !!!

Not quite true. Homes in California rarely have basements. Unless you live in the "fly over" states homes are outrageously expensive. San Francisco area prices exceed Knightsbridge for townhouses that are more akin to what your would find in Finsbury Park.  Basements are needed in the mid-west to shelter from tornadoes.  New east coast homes are most likely built on the concrete pad without basements. Older east coast homes and northern tier state homes need(ed) basements to house the heating and air conditioning equipment. If you live in an apartment as more Americans do you will only be able to have a module or two of a layout. There are clubs with layouts but then you have to put up with sometimes inane club politics.

 

Although there are probably more railroad modelers in the US and Canada, the percentage of the population that are railroad modelers is much smaller. We seem few and far between in a much larger population that doesn't really care about this hobby. Like the UK the population of modelers is fast skewing older and more inclined to buy RTR than build a kit.   If you live like I do in a smaller town house you can only fit a 2 X 8 switching plank in my spare bedroom and office. And my Homeowners Association won't let me use the garage for a model railroad either.

 

Scale Trains and most of the modern railroad model freight and passenger car manufacturers like Atlas, Athearn, Walthers and others are sold as RTR models assembled in China not as kits. I don't know of any locomotive kits steam or diesel that are new in the last 10 years.  Brass is only RTR. There is nothing like the UK etched steam engine industry. Scale Trains do sell "detail" kits separately to add more details in a "Clever Design" (and Marketing) move. In my local hobby shop (train store) 90% of the shelf space is occupied by RTR. This store is very well stocked and one of the two best serving the SF Bay Area. Kits in resin or plastic are special order items. Prices are all over $40. 

 

Freight car kits are still made in plastic and resin.  I created last month and moderate a discussion message group at https://plasticfreightcarbuiilders.groups.io as part of the migration from Yahoo Groups. Over 140 people interested in kit building have subscribed to the group.

[Dunsignalling]

I think it's a bit more than just a 'bag of bits', certainly on the GE Tier 4 GEVo ET44 anyway as there appears to be a lot of moulded-on detail and grilles as opposed to etched grilles and etched fittings, cab detail, engine room detail etc.  Either way though it seems a pretty good concept if the market will support the two distinct levels of detail/features of any one type of locomotive.

Possibly easier to do with US outline, non-steam models, too. Tooling with alternative slides for the moulded-on and separate fittings is going to be somewhat easier/cheaper if most things are flat-sided (or nearly so). UK steam locos with round/tapered boilers and elaborate lining present greater challenges. 

 

The important issues for the business are:

 

• How quickly the extra cost incurred by incorporating the necessary versatility into the tooling will be recouped in sales of the budget versions.

• The extent to which sales of the fully detailed models will be reduced by offering the budget option.

 

What Scate Trains, and anyone else pursuing such a strategy needs to know is that it will increase overall return. For the investment to be worthwhile, they have to make more out of selling the budget models than they might lose from people buying them instead of the fully detailed ones, which means:

 

• People buying them who wouldn't have bought the "better" one at all.

• Those diverted from stumping up the extra buying the budget ones in sufficiently greater quantities to outweigh the effect of the lost sales.

 

Essentially, the combined ranges must produce more profit than could be generated by catering exclusively for one end of the market, or they are wasting their time.

 

Establishing whether any or all of that actually happens is, I suspect, rather easier said than done

 

 

John

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[jjb1970]

There is no "one size fits all" business model. All companies have their own way of doing business and their own space (until they go defunct if they're not especially good at what they do) therefore the fact that a company can do something or that another can't shouldn't be taken as being universally applicable. However, what Scale Trains shows is that it is possible to develop parallel product lines based on common development and find a market for both lower cost, more basic models for people who like playing with trains and also top end super detail (I'll avoid that term "museum quality that has entered the lexicon). I wouldn't extend it to an argument that Hornby could or even should do it, but what I think it does demonstrate is that the concept of design clever can work if well executed.

[009 micro modeller]

I suspect they would be sick of it and order Rivet counter instead, especially if they had 12 or so different trains in the fiddle yards !!!

Isn't it more likely in some respects that they would get the less detailed version, saving money on something there are lots of that are only seen from a distance, as part of an overall picture?

[adb968008]

Not quite true. Homes in California rarely have basements. Unless you live in the "fly over" states homes are outrageously expensive. San Francisco area prices exceed Knightsbridge for townhouses that are more akin to what your would find in Finsbury Park. Basements are needed in the mid-west to shelter from tornadoes. New east coast homes are most likely built on the concrete pad without basements. Older east coast homes and northern tier state homes need(ed) basements to house the heating and air conditioning equipment. If you live in an apartment as more Americans do you will only be able to have a module or two of a layout. There are clubs with layouts but then you have to put up with sometimes inane club politics.

 

Although there are probably more railroad modelers in the US and Canada, the percentage of the population that are railroad modelers is much smaller. We seem few and far between in a much larger population that doesn't really care about this hobby. Like the UK the population of modelers is fast skewing older and more inclined to buy RTR than build a kit. If you live like I do in a smaller town house you can only fit a 2 X 8 switching plank in my spare bedroom and office. And my Homeowners Association won't let me use the garage for a model railroad either.

 

Scale Trains and most of the modern railroad model freight and passenger car manufacturers like Atlas, Athearn, Walthers and others are sold as RTR models assembled in China not as kits. I don't know of any locomotive kits steam or diesel that are new in the last 10 years. Brass is only RTR. There is nothing like the UK etched steam engine industry. Scale Trains do sell "detail" kits separately to add more details in a "Clever Design" (and Marketing) move. In my local hobby shop (train store) 90% of the shelf space is occupied by RTR. This store is very well stocked and one of the two best serving the SF Bay Area. Kits in resin or plastic are special order items. Prices are all over $40.

 

Freight car kits are still made in plastic and resin. I created last month and moderate a discussion message group at https://plasticfreightcarbuiilders.groups.io as part of the migration from Yahoo Groups. Over 140 people interested in kit building have subscribed to the group.

SAN Francisco is but 1 City in the US, and whilst California is blessed relatively well for railroad enthusiasts ( I myself used to engage at Yolo county with their 0-6-0 in Woodland, near Davis, and as recently as last week I almost stopped off to see old friends in Sacramento, it isn’t a mirror of the entire US, or even Marin county for that matter. Up near Portola, land is very cheap, and I knew a gentleman with a barn with a humongous layout in HO. Whilst recognising he’s an exception, and i’m Generalising, but space is more readily available and affordable in the locations where railroad interests are also easier to flourish in many parts of the US, and those parts as you rightly highlighted are not it’s major cities, but then neither are it’s museums in those downtown city locations either. Ive had fortunate pleasure of 45 US states, and some locations /cities/fields I’ve visited more than 100 times each, including several years as a travelling engineer living in the US, it’s given me quite an insite into the country, it’s vast lands and the benefits that brings... there are railroads and modellers nationwide, but in many cases they are not close to the city centre, which gives additional space, which is hard for people stateside to appreciate, until they visit Europe and see what a premium it is in Europe.

Though I do relate to San Francisco’s property issues (people in the UK complain), I lived in the city myself for several years paying rent at prices 20 years ago would make people’s eyes water in The UK today.. though I did still manage a 12’ x 12’ L shape layout in my bedroom... the stock for it resides in my loft today indeed I still find stuff I’ve not seen in 12 years including this beauty I found at the weekend..

$60, (£30 - we used to get $2=£1 then too) all fittings ..are fitted and opening doors.. did we really have it that good 20 years ago ? - we must have done as I bought way too much of it !!!

 

In the case of city of SF above, it has separate hand rails as we’d expect, but also opening doors, separately fitted foot steps..and etched grills..but continuing it has separately fitted axle boxes that are sprung on the axle for each wheel.. it has grill lifting loops, something we barely even see tooled (ive seen it in the western and Bachmann 43 in parts bags)..all factory fitted.. and that was 20 years ago !

 

Today it’s not Considered to be rivet counter quality, and in the proposed business case above the parts bag is being offered at half the price I paid for the locos used in the above picture.. which despite being 20years old are in some regards still way ahead of UK top quality today ...

That’s why I say it’s a dangerous precedent for Europe to adopt this model... we are 20 years behind already and by all accounts it’s not cost efficient to catch up, so separately sold parts bags will be the likely outcome here, making a premium of what is an already existing product, not an enhancement of it... take note the confusion in the Bachmann catalog to the “A” question.. the accessory pack is already started being touted as a “bonus” point.

 

If you want an example.. look at the south west airlines model, adopted over here SWA would be seen as a premium airline, what we got was a budget model of the budget airline model, then we got Ryanair who budgeted it down a bit more... that’s European reality to the copying of good intentioned ideas we see innovated in the US. As for museum quality.. you won’t find it in a museum here, let alone in model form.

I’m not down playing Europe here, European standards, and UK standards are what they are, and the market expects and adopts them, but the art of the possible often just doesn’t work in the economics and practical realities of Europe and the UK... a full fat US museum quality model loco just wouldn’t find enough buyers at its UK price point to make it worthwhile doing... Dapol did the A4 that’s about as good as one can expect in UK rtr and still make enough sales, (2 years on and it’s still not fully sold out despite very low quantities made). had they done a Jinty chances are it wouldn’t have sold at that price at all... as for a £780 museum quality loco in the UK.. no chance people are griping at paying £160.

Edited March 8, 2018 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

The old Proto2000 models were very well done, I still love my old BL2 in C&O colours from them and a couple of old E units in C&O wave colours. Despite being bought in the mid 90's they're still fantastic models and very sweet runners. The thing I find a little sad about the NA market is the decline of the brass segment to a small micro-niche.

[Dunsignalling]

Isn't it more likely in some respects that they would get the less detailed version, saving money on something there are lots of that are only seen from a distance, as part of an overall picture?

Some will jump one way, some the other.

 

It depends on the individual's modelling priorities; the gamut runs between high-level detailing being the be-all-and-end-all right through to not being too bothered at all by that and deriving all of ones pleasure from intensive and/or authentic operation.

 

As with all things, most people's requirements will fall somewhere between the extremes and those who can afford both quality and quantity, don't need to choose.

 

Money only becomes an issue when one either doesn't have enough of it or can't bear to let go of it. 

 

John

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Jeff Smith]

US basements do vary. In Indiana mine was under most of the house with internal stair access (tornado alley). In Georgia they have to have external access so only houses built on sloping sites have them.

 

At an exhibition in Atlanta last year I saw a very large S gauge layout, probably 20'x15', modularized amongst several club members. S gauge is all RTR and not cheap, locos being in the $300 to $500 range. Only a couple of manufacturers are involved and the models I saw were definitely not fine scale with overscale couplers, wheels and track. Emphasis was on watching the trains to by. One manufacturer seems to do two versions of some locos with about $100 price difference and also add on details. This market cannot be nearly as big as the HO one.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Jeff Smith

[Dunsignalling]

I  have 2 boys (13 and 9) who were Thomas mad when younger.  Neither have any interest in model railways/toy trains now.  Its xbox all the way, insta, snap etc.

 

 

 

From this Gen-X'er it would seem that there is a huge pressure on younger generations to live their lives in a way identical to their peers.  Not only 'must' that phone be an iPhone, or an iPhone 8, it most be an iPhone 8xyz.  You 'must' document your life on insta and if you don't get enough likes, you're a zero.  And that's a real shame because it seems like we're getting a generation of clones (and i include my eldest child in this).  

 

​I applaud 009 Micro Modeller and others who are strong enough to stand up and say "i like model trains, what of it?".  This hobby and many others need it.  Whether it be trains, planes, knitting, cooking, we need the younger generations to come in and take an interest, otherwise like us, the manufacturers will die out, design clever or otherwise

That will be worrying for those on here who agonise about the long-term future of the hobby. It will change, it may shrink but I don't think it will ever die. Even if it did, the manufacturers should be savvy enough to bail out and do something else.

 

I don't see any point in worrying about things outside my control, I just enjoy what I'm doing, while I can still do it. At some time in the (hopefully distant) future, my executor will either sell my stuff carefully for a small fortune, to Hatton's for convenience and a smaller one, or bung it all in a skip 'cos it's become worthless. My nephews and niece should do OK whatever. 

 

On a brighter note, what used to float your lads' boats may well do so again in later life, once they gain the self-assurance that puts peer pressure into perspective and they begin to perceive the emptiness of most of the interaction that takes place on "social" media. 

 

Middle age is liberating because most of the mistakes one will ever make have been made and learned from, and what anybody else thinks starts to matter less, if at all.

 

That "Fifty" and "Freedom" start with the same letter is no coincidence.........

 

John

Edited March 9, 2018 by Dunsignalling