RTR vs Kits... Economics, Variety and Quality: a discussion.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I reckon soldering is reasonably specialist and something that puts most folk off. It might be I don't have the tools , only having a basic soldering bolt , but I know I struggle with soldering wires together and the odd repair to a loco motor where a wire has come loose.

 

I know you say its just a matter of practice but actually there is a skill there too.

 

I maintain that anything that involves soldering will be a major turn off to most folks

Soldering is straightforward if you follow some simple rules, which most beginners don't. It is carried out successfully by unskilled workers in the Far East (as it was in the UK when we had a consumer electronics industry), because they are given the right tools and a simple process to follow. It's about getting the parts being soldered to a high enough temperature for the solder to melt and bond to the metal.

 

Ensure the parts to be soldered are properly clean.

Use the correct temperature solder with a separate flux for model work. Only use multicore solder for electrical work.

Use a soldering iron of sufficient power to maintain it's temperature when applied to the work (at least 25 watts), with a clean 3mm diameter bit for model work.

Ensure the parts being soldered are in close contact.

 

I've seen one demonstrator at shows successfully getting children to solder bits of brass together following that approach. If an adult can't do it, then they are doing something wrong, don't think about what isn't working, don't seek advice and give up too easily.

 

As you develop confidence then you learn to adapt the technique to suit small details, solder white metal, etc. It may require applying a bit of thought to what you are doing, but it isn't rocket science.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Jol Wilkinson

[Steamport Southport]

Thank you all for the advice and will keep this in mind. I would have gone for a Webb coal tank, but thats now R-T-R as well. Not many LMS loco's not already R-T-R though, so I might still go for a Coal Tank or Jinty just to see what I can do. 

 

If you wait until GEM/Lytchett Models are hopefully back up and running then I would recommend the Watford Tank and Webb 2-4-2T. They have modern etched brass chassis and the main superstructure is relatively easy.

 

The Watford Tank is a fine looking loco, virtually a larger wheeled version of the Coal Tank.

 

http://lnwrs.org.uk/PassClassLocos/pass_class_menu.php?display_class_details=w53t

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

I reckon soldering is reasonably specialist and something that puts most folk off. It might be I don't have the tools , only having a basic soldering bolt , but I know I struggle with soldering wires together and the odd repair to a loco motor where a wire has come loose.

 

I know you say its just a matter of practice but actually there is a skill there too.

 

I maintain that anything that involves soldering will be a major turn off to most folks

 

I think that is where a lot of people get confused. I did when I started out.

 

Ignore what you know about electrics. You are using the solder more as a glue or like welding. Think of it more as something like an epoxy glue.

 

 

Loads of useful information here. Aimed at O gauge but most of the advice is very relevant.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Questions.html

 

 

One of my first etched kits was a Connoisseur Jinty. Now that was a well designed kit with good instructions. I wish other manufacturers had instructions as good as this.

 

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Loco%20Kit%20Pages/LMS%203F%20Jinty%20Loco%20Instruction%20Booklet%20print%20off%20pdf.pdf

 

 

Jason

[Jeff Smith]

In terms of quality I would agree wholeheartedly based on todays offerings from 3D printing.  But surely the point is that if a modeller wants/needs an XYZ which is not available as rtr.  His choices are scratch build, kit or 3D print and if as is suggested the modeller does not believe he has the skills to kit/scratch-build then his choices are 3D or get a professional builder to build him one.  So while on quality it is not a like for like comparison, it is on the basis of availability.  

 

Availability is the key here, tempered by affordability, skill and maybe time constraints. 

 

As my Avatar indicates I am a fan of the North London Railway, although it ceased to be way before I was born.  My first kit was a white metal K's 57xx - soldered and fairly easy but subsequently converted to P4 with a Perseverance chassis .  My second loco kit was a Peter K etched 4-4-0T Class 51.  I bought it at Scaleforum in about 1988 with wheels and a Portescap motor/gearbox.  It probably cost about 60 pounds.  It proved a bit challenging, one of the problems being an undersized soldering iron.  It was completed several years later after I had practised on a couple of etched coach kits.  I subsequently bought a complete loco kit from Branchlines comprising the NLR white metal 0-6-0T Gem body with Branchlines chassis wheels and motor/gearbox.  It went together very well but the motion was a bit tight in P4.

 

Now, partly inspired by this thread, I have just ordered a NLR 4-4-0T Class 1-10 (the one with the smokebox that curves around the outside cylinders looking similar to a Stirling Single) from L49's page on Shapeways in FUD.  Once I have taken delivery I will be able to make a motor and g/b choice but wheels will be from Gibson.  Sorting out the suspension will be interesting but will be based on the Peter K system, the only way in my opinion to compensate a 4-4-0.

 

So my NLR motive power will be an etched brass, a white metal and a 3D print......I will start a thread on the build once my O-16.5 GVT Baldwin is completed.

[hayfield]

Soldering is straightforward if you follow some simple rules, which most beginners don't.  It is carried out successfully by skilled workers in the Far East (as it was in the UK when we had a consumer electronics industry), because they are given the right tools and a simple process to follow. It's about getting the parts being soldered to a high enough temperature for the solder to melt and bond to the metal. 

 

Ensure the parts to be soldered are properly clean.

Use the correct temperature solder with a separate flux for model work. Only use multicore solder for electrical work.

Use a soldering iron of sufficient power to maintain it's temperature when applied to the work (at least 25 watts), with a clean 3mm diameter bit for model work.

Ensure the parts being soldered are in close contact.

 

I've seen one demonstrator at shows successfully getting children to solder bits of brass together following that approach. If an adult can't do it, then they are doing something wrong, don't think about what isn't working, don't seek advice and give up too easily.

 

As you develop confidence then you learn to adapt the technique to suit small details, solder white metal, etc. It may require applying a bit of thought to what you are doing, but it isn't rocket science.

 

 

You are spot on with soldering, one tip I was given if using low melt solder which overnight transformed my ability to solder whitemetal kits was to put a small piece of solder to be used into the joint with plenty of liquid flux, then use a hot soldering iron with a clean tip

 

Before I picked up the piece of solder with the iron and took it to the job, what I did not know was by the time the solder reached the job all the additives that allow the solder to flow had burny away. Simple but so effective

[Jeff Smith]

You are spot on with soldering, one tip I was given if using low melt solder which overnight transformed my ability to solder whitemetal kits was to put a small piece of solder to be used into the joint with plenty of liquid flux, then use a hot soldering iron with a clean tip

 

Before I picked up the piece of solder with the iron and took it to the job, what I did not know was by the time the solder reached the job all the additives that allow the solder to flow had burny away. Simple but so effective

 

Yes, that's my technique too.  I like to heat up the parts somewhat first then move the iron onto the solder - you have to be careful though if not using a temperature controlled iron!  The accessory I find essential is a tip cleaner which cleans and tins the bit.

[Jeff Smith]

This fear of soldering is a strange phobia - how do you wire up a layout with proper droppers etc if you can't solder.....!

[hayfield]

Yes, that's my technique too.  I like to heat up the parts somewhat first then move the iron onto the solder - you have to be careful though if not using a temperature controlled iron!  The accessory I find essential is a tip cleaner which cleans and tins the bit.

 

 

I learnt the expensive way about cleaning the tip, find a wet sponge fine, just about to invest in a temperature controlled iron, but for 4 mm scale work a standard Antex 25 watt has been fine

[hayfield]

This fear of soldering is a strange phobia - how do you wire up a layout with proper droppers etc if you can't solder.....!

 

It may be that they try and use solder with a resin core in it without using any flux, that was my issue at first

[rue_d_etropal]

Every skill is easy for those who can do it, but difficult for others. Some understand algebra, others don't. It is as simple as that. Everyone is different, and those who think everyone should be able to do what they find easy are not thinking correctly. I would challenge anyone who thinks like this take on something they know they can't do how ever hard they try.

 

I found the website for the French 3D printed Crampton. Not cheap, but you have to also bear in mind that continental r2r models tend to be more expensive so kits etc will match those prices not UK prices. http://www.est-modeles.com/

Website is not that difficult to follow, as names are pretty clear, so don't worry if you can't read French!

[Jeff Smith]

Every skill is easy for those who can do it, but difficult for others. Some understand algebra, others don't. It is as simple as that. Everyone is different, and those who think everyone should be able to do what they find easy are not thinking correctly. I would challenge anyone who thinks like this take on something they know they can't do how ever hard they try.

 I would take issue with this thinking.  True there are some skills that are hard to learn and for some skills you do need an aptitude, eg artwork, musical instruments, etc.  However if you really think you need to learn something it is self defeating to give up before even starting.  I don't understand algebra but I don't need to or particularly want to.  However the whole model railway hobby, if you want to progress from set track on the carpet to something more permanent, requires the need to learn some skills.  As a hobby model railways probably require a wider range of skills than say plastic kits or even flying model aircraft.  True you can lay and pin down some track on an internal door, buy some completed model buildings, trees, hedges, some RTR stock and maybe be satisfied.  But at some time you might want to learn how to ballast your track, you might want to improve the running by installing some dropper wires, you might want to make some plastic buildings without solvent finger prints, you might even want to paint them.  You might want to build a better baseboard and do some scenic contouring.  All these skills can be self taught or learnt from someone else if the desire is there.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Every skill is easy for those who can do it, but difficult for others. Some understand algebra, others don't. It is as simple as that. Everyone is different, and those who think everyone should be able to do what they find easy are not thinking correctly. I would challenge anyone who thinks like this take on something they know they can't do how ever hard they try.

A complete red herring.

 

A simple manual skill or process, which is what soldering is, can be learned by anyone with a reasonable IQ. It is made easier if you have an instructor or mentor, are willing to follow established guidelines and don't fall for the usual rubbish that it is a difficult process to master.

 

If you want to lean to do something relatively simple, you can. There are a variety of skills that people have learned to create their model railway layout, so why is soldering treated as black magic?

[johnarcher]

Every skill is easy for those who can do it, but difficult for others. Some understand algebra, others don't. It is as simple as that. Everyone is different, and those who think everyone should be able to do what they find easy are not thinking correctly. I would challenge anyone who thinks like this take on something they know they can't do how ever hard they try.

 

As Jol said, that's not really a valid comparison. Algebra is a large and complex subject, soldering is a simple (which doesn't necessarily mean easy) physical process.

If you hold two bits of clean brass steadily together, apply flux, solder and enough heat what can stop the solder flowing? They may not be at the right angle, the joint may be not be very neat, but there aren't people for whom the process just doesn't work (unless they are the sort of people who can set a flame to a piece of dry newspaper and it doesn't burn).

If it doesn't work it is because one or more of such simple conditions aren't met - hardly equivalent to the complexities of algebra.

As a post earlier pointed out many many people used to get jobs in factories solder-assembling electrical circuits (including mothers of some of my school-friends, who had no relevant experience at all), had some training and practice and got on with it.

 

As I said, if people don't want to spend a little time learning the basics of soldering that's up to them, but don't present it as a mysterious art, that requires great and rare aptitude and long training, and thereby deter people who'd like to learn, would find it useful, and, like most people, could do it quite adequately after an hour or two of explanation and pactice.

Edited March 20, 2018 by johnarcher

[Clive Mortimore]

A complete red herring.

 

A simple manual skill or process, which is what soldering is, can be learned by anyone with a reasonable IQ. It is made easier if you have an instructor or mentor, are willing to follow established guidelines and don't fall for the usual rubbish that it is a difficult process to master.

 

If you want to lean to do something relatively simple, you can. There are a variety of skills that people have learned to create their model railway layout, so why is soldering treated as black magic?

Yeah anyone can solder, but did anyone tell her the solder joints are on the underside of the PCB.

 

Sorry Jol I disagree. Having worked as an assembly inspector at Marconi's we had new members of staff who had to be found jobs they could do, which didn't involve soldering.

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, she also needs to turn the soldering iron on!

[BlackRat]

Easy peasy, as long as we don't introduce different types of solder, different types of flux, different types or wattages of irons, different types of bit, tinning and bit tinning, bit cleaning..... .

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Clive,

 

Ahh but so is etched brass!

 

Anchor Mount Tank Underframe 2.JPG

 

I like your tank wagons, especially the wing plate mounted one.

 

If people are going to produce 3D printed items that are going to need a lot of 'finishing' then why aren't they done in a way that makes it easy to finish them, ie in bits and without any detail to them? If you're going to have to do a lot of priming and sanding then perhaps a loco body should actually come as a kit with seperate footplate, smokebox/boiler/firebox, cab, tanks, etc. This would push the price up as there is a setting up cost per item to take into account but would make the life of the builder a lot easier. Part of the art of desiging kits to to make them as user friendly as possible within the market at which they're aimed.

 

Justin

Hi Justin

 

Etched brass is OK but I like sitting there with a sheet of 40 thou and thinking, what can I turn this into. I build what I cannot buy kit or RTR. At the moment I am building an etch kit of a loco class I scratchbuilt a member of out of plastic, with brass frames, a long time ago. The kit is very good, so far I haven't had to alter anything but it is a lot harder to put together than my home made plastic one.

 

I haven't tried a 3D printed kit so far. I might do one day. I like Dave's A5 but who wouldn't like an Ivatt A5.

[coachmann]

After reading the soldering tips, I must be doing it wrong (gulp!) and I have built quite a few coaches in recent years (stopped keeping records when it got past 1000). Tip : Carry solder on the iron if it works for you!

 

For people who prefer making models in plastic, I built the loco bodies shown below from Plastikard in 1962-3...

 

Top row : L&YR Class 3 2-4-2T,  L&YR Class 2 2-4-2T (both on cut down Triang Jinty chassis) Fowler 7F 0-8-0 (Hornby Dublo 8F chassis) , MR 0F 0-4-0 (Triang Nellie chassis).

Bottom row: LNWR 5' 6" 2-4-2T (no motor), L&YR 3F 0-6-0 (Triang Jinty chassis),Fowler Class 3 2-6-2T (Triang Jinty chassis), LNWR Coal Tank (Hornby Dublo R1 chassis I think).

 

Click to enlarge

[rue_d_etropal]

Sorry, I can't solder properly, been trying for years.Can just about solder a wire connection, but not much else. I am prepared to accept that people are different and can do different things, so can't understand why others have trouble in that. But then, everyone is different so I find thinkng easier than others.

I will take on a challenge, in fact try stopping me, but I know when I can't do something. I have good manual skills, and unlike some people can move easily between 2d and 3d, so find designing 3D models quite easy. Some people can't read a map, or navigate, however much you try and show them. It is not lack of practice , just that different people have different abilities.

Algebra is a valid comparison. Tend to find with much maths, that it teaches you how to solve problems, and build systems. That is why exams always expect you to show the working, as getting to the answer is only a small part of the test. Not everyone understands that, but then not everyone can solve everyday problems.

[Buhar]

Easy peasy, as long as we don't introduce different types of solder, different types of flux, different types or wattages of irons, different types of bit, tinning and bit tinning, bit cleaning..... .

Hi BlackRat

 

You are correct in that there are special situations that call for more esoteric solutions, but please don't perpetuate what amounts to the "black art" myth.

 

Jol et al are trying to get folk to give it a try and describing techniques that are sufficient to assemble a brass kit. At the most you need one iron,one bit, one flux and two types of solder with different melting points. One for the basic assembly and a lower melting point one for the later detail.

[jjb1970]

A complete red herring.

 

A simple manual skill or process, which is what soldering is, can be learned by anyone with a reasonable IQ. It is made easier if you have an instructor or mentor, are willing to follow established guidelines and don't fall for the usual rubbish that it is a difficult process to master.

 

If you want to lean to do something relatively simple, you can. There are a variety of skills that people have learned to create their model railway layout, so why is soldering treated as black magic?

Not a red herring at all, algebra is fundamentally simple, merely a means of representing mathematical relationships using symbols and letters. All mathematics, science and engineering subjects depend upon using algebra. To study those subjects at higher levels does require a lot of application and learning but elementary algebra is something my two kiddies are already learning at primary school. I'm guessing an awful lot of non-engineers on this board are familiar with V=IR which is an algebraic way to represent Ohm's law. Applying Ohm's law to complex circuits gets progressively more complicated but V=IR (or I=V/R or R=V/I) is the building block of electrical engineering and simple enough for almost anybody to understand. Joining metals gets progressively more complex as you use different techniques and join different metals, no different to the relationships represented by algebra getting more complex. The chief metallurgist of one of the big six electrical companies I worked at was one of the only people that company would allow to make weld repairs on turbine blades, that was pretty challenging welding (well, making a weld that would pass the NDE and quality requirements for that application was demanding) but fundamentally it was just welding and just joining two metals together. People have different aptitudes and interests and what is simple and straightforward to one person may be anything but for others. That holds true for just about anything.

Edited March 21, 2018 by jjb1970

[hayfield]

Yeah anyone can solder, but did anyone tell her the solder joints are on the underside of the PCB.

pcb.jpg

 

Sorry Jol I disagree. Having worked as an assembly inspector at Marconi's we had new members of staff who had to be found jobs they could do, which didn't involve soldering.

 

And if the iron was actually on her fingers would be on fire !!

 

Again missing Jol's point. The actual basic process of soldering two pieces of metal together is a simple task, which agreed has to be learnt but still is simple. You can go further on and learn more advanced techniques, but Jol is referring to a basic task, not a skill. Skills come in for more advanced applications. To be quite frank most of those who fail, do so because they do not have either the correct tools and or materials, plus failed to swat up on the process (read instructions)

 

I had to take out and repair my sliding doors to the garden in my old house, the instructions were thrown away 20 years before. I just looked at a couple of You View downloads to remind me how they fit together, then worked in reverse

[hayfield]

Not a red herring at all, algebra is fundamentally simple, merely a means of representing mathematical relationships using symbols and letters. All mathematics, science and engineering subjects depend upon using algebra. To study those subjects at higher levels does require a lot of application and learning but elementary algebra is something my two kiddies are already learning at primary school. I'm guessing an awful lot of non-engineers on this board are familiar with V=IR which is an algebraic way to represent Ohm's law. Applying Ohm's law to complex circuits gets progressively more complicated but V=IR (or I=V/R or R=V/I) is the building block of electrical engineering and simple enough for almost anybody to understand. Joining metals gets progressively more complex as you use different techniques and join different metals, no different to the relationships represented by algebra getting more complex. The chief metallurgist of one of the big six electrical companies I worked at was one of the only people that company would allow to make weld repairs on turbine blades, that was pretty challenging welding (well, making a weld that would pass the NDE and quality requirements for that application was demanding) but fundamentally it was just welding and just joining two metals together. People have different aptitudes and interests and what is simple and straightforward to one person may be anything but for others. That holds true for just about anything.

 

 

I could never understand algebra at school, and not knowing Ohm's law has never stopped me from learning how to solder !!  I want to build a simple brass kit, not an advanced nuclear reactor, thats for those with brains and I guess an understanding of Ohm's law 

[ianLMS]

If you wait until GEM/Lytchett Models are hopefully back up and running then I would recommend the Watford Tank and Webb 2-4-2T. They have modern etched brass chassis and the main superstructure is relatively easy.

 

The Watford Tank is a fine looking loco, virtually a larger wheeled version of the Coal Tank.

 

http://lnwrs.org.uk/PassClassLocos/pass_class_menu.php?display_class_details=w53t

 

 

 

Jason

Definitely a fine looking locomotive which I am sure would fine its way a little further north on occasion. I will see what I can find!

 

Ian

[Clearwater]

Like most things, there is basic, competent and highly advanced when it comes to painting/soldering. It’s not too hard to master the basics, similarly most people can master maths to a certain level. However to make it past competent you need a degree of skill plus application.

 

In fact application can get you a long way. Look at sport. How many times are there descriptions in the press of the next great star with all the skills? How many of those make the ranks of the great? Of those who do make great status, how many is it whose work ethic stands out above everything else? Listen to the football managers on players like Lampard, Gary Neville - “model pro, always first out and last in off the training pitch.” Think Alistair Cook in cricket - yes talented but works incredibly hard to make most of his talent. Hayfield quoted the quote in my sig file earlier on this thread. The same is true in academia. I don’t doubt the same is true in soldering/painting. Yes, you need some ability but you can get a long way by working hard!