RTR vs Kits... Economics, Variety and Quality: a discussion.

[Jeff Smith]

Sorry to disappoint you but Wills are in the safe hands of Southeastern Finecast, GEM with Lychett Models. Branchlines and Southeastern Finecast have started the Nucast partnership which also includes the Keyser models and some items are being reintroduced

 

Look at eBay sales and loads of kits and kit-built models change hands, the rarer for quite a few pennies. Skill sets are not taught in schools today or for some time, but that has not stopped many from learning how to build them

John, as you seem to have your finger on the pulse of the kit manufacturers, do you know what happened to the K's Milestone kits? I built the Beyer Peacock 4-4-0 with new compensated chassis a while ago and I believe The Broad Gauge Society offers the GWR Rover 2-2-2.

[Jol Wilkinson]

John, as you seem to have your finger on the pulse of the kit manufacturers, do you know what happened to the K's Milestone kits? I built the Beyer Peacock 4-4-0 with new compensated chassis a while ago and I believe The Broad Gauge Society offers the GWR Rover 2-2-2.

 

They went to Kay Butler of IKB. The GWR Rover moved on to the BGS, bit the rest sank from view as far as I know. The only source is second hand, usually from the well known auction site.

 

The LNWR Problem was subsequently done as an etched kit by London Road Models, with a cast front end from the original (but slightly modified) K's brass pattern, loaned by Kay.

[bike2steam]

This one fits a Bachmann Jinty chassis, though I will see if a Hornby, or even Triang, one fits.

 

That's interesting, so if the G6 body is to scale, the cover/splasher for the rear set of drivers of a 'Jinty' chassis will be in the cab entrance ??

[Jeff Smith]

They went to Kay Butler of IKB. The GWR Rover moved on to the BGS, bit the rest sank from view as far as I know. The only source is second hand, usually from the well known auction site.

 

The LNWR Problem was subsequently done as an etched kit by London Road Models, with a cast front end from the original (but slightly modified) K's brass pattern, loaned by Kay.

Kay Butler/IKB has I believe ceased trading.

[sem34090]

Indeed, the rear splashers will be in the cab entrance. As it happens I was stupid enough to miss them out.

 

The 3D printed chassis is to scale.

[bigherb]

That's interesting, so if the G6 body is to scale, the cover/splasher for the rear set of drivers of a 'Jinty' chassis will be in the cab entrance ??

They would be with the Wills kit with a Dublo R1 chassis.

[bike2steam]

They would be with the Wills kit with a Dublo R1 chassis.

 

True, but less obvious than a 'Jinty' chassis which has a bigger wheelbase. 

[Legend]

Right, please bear in mind that phone-quality pictures are always dodgy and tend to make models look worse than they are, but here are some photos of the G6 print, in 4mm, sans chassis.

The cab roof is very ridged, but I think this may be a design issue on my part.

 

Also, please note that this is my first 'proper' loco model, as in one that I have not done as a private commission and is for my own use. All being well it should be on sale by the end of today.

Wow that’s impressive!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Wow that’s impressive!

As a test piece, possibly. But I don't think that the surface finish is good enough from what I can see from the photo.

 

That's the big drawback for me with 3D printing at present, unless you are willing to spend a lot of money on a print piece. Until I could buy an item such as a loco body or tender, a coach body, etc. that I can paint without major finishing, such as more than minimal removal of flash on a plastic kit, then I won't be won over.

[bike2steam]

As a test piece, possibly. But I don't think that the surface finish is good enough from what I can see from the photo.

 

 

Funny you should say that, that's exactly what I said to a mate of mine a few days ago. He's into 3D printing in a big way, and he assured me things are improving, better now than they used to be, and can see the problem being resolved soon - I do like his positive thinking, or is he hoping ?? 

[hayfield]

As a test piece, possibly. But I don't think that the surface finish is good enough from what I can see from the photo.

 

That's the big drawback for me with 3D printing at present, unless you are willing to spend a lot of money on a print piece. Until I could buy an item such as a loco body or tender, a coach body, etc. that I can paint without major finishing, such as more than minimal removal of flash on a plastic kit, then I won't be won over.

 

 

Funny you should say that, that's exactly what I said to a mate of mine a few days ago. He's into 3D printing in a big way, and he assured me things are improving, better now than they used to be, and can see the problem being resolved soon - I do like his positive thinking, or is he hoping ?? 

 

 

Totally agree with both of you, many of the items I have seen look like they have had a bad splattered paint job. Having said this the quality from Modelu products is stunning, when the mainstream catch up happy to join in

[Jol Wilkinson]

Totally agree with both of you, many of the items I have seen look like they have had a bad splattered paint job. Having said this the quality from Modelu products is stunning, when the mainstream catch up happy to join in

 

The process used by Alan Butler at Modelu appears a little different. It is apparently very slow, so best  suited at present to the relatively small, superbly modelled and very smooth surface items he produces.

 

I have seen very smooth finish on 3D printed items, but in each case the cost has been prohibitive for a production process, but great as a pattern for resin moulding.

[Jeff Smith]

Before I take the plunge and order this https://www.shapeways.com/product/GRYFNC38P/n-l-r-outside-cylinder-440-tank-loco-wide-cab?optionId=60023613 I'd like know what peoples' experiences are regarding cleaning up the surfaces with this type of material. Can it be sanded or smoothed with a fibreglass brush?

[JSpencer]

Before I take the plunge and order this https://www.shapeways.com/product/GRYFNC38P/n-l-r-outside-cylinder-440-tank-loco-wide-cab?optionId=60023613 I'd like know what peoples' experiences are regarding cleaning up the surfaces with this type of material. Can it be sanded or smoothed with a fibreglass brush?

No but wet'n'dry works very well. Start with 400 grit and move towards 800 or 1000.

[PenrithBeacon]

Before I take the plunge and order this https://www.shapeways.com/product/GRYFNC38P/n-l-r-outside-cylinder-440-tank-loco-wide-cab?optionId=60023613 I'd like know what peoples' experiences are regarding cleaning up the surfaces with this type of material. Can it be sanded or smoothed with a fibreglass brush?

I've been watching http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131710-building-and-completing-my-4mm-3d-printed-gnr-coaches/page-2&do=findComment&comment=3091079 as I would like much the same answers. Most informative.

[chris p bacon]

Before I take the plunge and order this https://www.shapeways.com/product/GRYFNC38P/n-l-r-outside-cylinder-440-tank-loco-wide-cab?optionId=60023613 I'd like know what peoples' experiences are regarding cleaning up the surfaces with this type of material. Can it be sanded or smoothed with a fibreglass brush?

 

Order it in FUD for a better finish. 

 

It does depend on the design as to the detail printed though.

[Jeff Smith]

FUD is twice the price.....is there really that much difference?

[chris p bacon]

FUD is twice the price.....is there really that much difference?

 

I think there is.

 

I've just done a few pics with the phone.

 

 

The grey is FUD and has just been washed and degreased and given a coat of Halfords grey primer. The yellow is in WSF and has been washed and degreased then sprayed with filler primer and rubbed down 3 times. still more effort required. 

 

 

Not sure if you can see that a lot of the boiler /washout plug detail has been lost on the WSF

 

 

Things like the safety valve didn't even print well so it's been replaced (needs cutting down). Also the FUD printing is 'crisper' and just looks better.

 

The thing I note with 3D is that it's promoted as 'cheap' by some when it isn't (yet), It's certainly good at some things and will only get better, but it seems to be suffering from the same as RTR with a race to the bottom on price.

[sem34090]

My argument with those who despise WSF, or follow Jol's thoughts:

 

Is it really much more work than putting together an etched brass kit? Or cleaning up components on a whitemetal one? Both of those are well over twice the price of what mine cost, including postage and VAT. True mine still has faults, but the point is still valid.

[Craigw]

My argument with those who despise WSF, or follow Jol's thoughts:

 

Is it really much more work than putting together an etched brass kit? Or cleaning up components on a whitemetal one? Both of those are well over twice the price of what mine cost, including postage and VAT. True mine still has faults, but the point is still valid.

 

No, it probably is no more work.

 

Apart from losing any rivet detail that is on there and replacing all the detail parts.

 

Also working out the chassis, mechanism and wheels and other details.

 

After all that work on sanding the body you are still left with something that is overscale for the surface finish on a 1:35 scale Panther.

 

The Modelu stuff is terrific and I have a lot of it. This is using 3d printing properly.

 

The finish on wagon bodies is still (in my opinion) acceptable, but certainly not to the standard of a good injection moulded or brass kit. I have a good stock of Bill Bedford Models and will continue to buy them and they are getting better but still are not quite there.

 

Locos? Until one of them is equal to a etched kit in quality I will be staying well away from the "add to cart" function.

 

Craig W

[johnarcher]

My argument with those who despise WSF, or follow Jol's thoughts:

 

Is it really much more work than putting together an etched brass kit? Or cleaning up components on a whitemetal one? Both of those are well over twice the price of what mine cost, including postage and VAT. True mine still has faults, but the point is still valid.

I don't know, I haven't used any 3D stuff yet, but repeated sanding and priming seems like much less interesting work than putting a decent kit together.

From the pictures above the FUD does look more promising.

[chris p bacon]

My argument with those who despise WSF, or follow Jol's thoughts:

 

Is it really much more work than putting together an etched brass kit? Or cleaning up components on a whitemetal one? Both of those are well over twice the price of what mine cost, including postage and VAT. True mine still has faults, but the point is still valid.

 

 

I don't despise WSF, I just think it's the wrong material for the application. 

 

Craigw has made some good points, and I can say that the WSF A5 in the picture has taken longer than if I had been building it from a brass/whitemetal kit and it has less detail. I'm very happy with the FUD version and when painted will be fine and certainly better than the WSF.

[Jol Wilkinson]

My argument with those who despise WSF, or follow Jol's thoughts:

 

Is it really much more work than putting together an etched brass kit? Or cleaning up components on a whitemetal one? Both of those are well over twice the price of what mine cost, including postage and VAT. True mine still has faults, but the point is still valid.

 

It isn't about whether it is easier than building an etched kit, it is the work involved in getting a comparable finish to other kit "types" and the claim that 3D printing necessarily makes things easier.

 

3D printing was originally called "Rapid Prototyping" by most exponents and providers. It is still promoted as that on many of the 3D print companies that an internet search will turn up. The surface finish is often less critical in those uses and therefore the motivation to provide surface finishes of the level I would want seems to be something of a dream. Different print techniques do produce them, as the Modelu products show, but that process doesn't seem to support products of the size of loco bodies. 

 

"Refinishing" a relatively complex item, such as a loco body, panelled carriage side or planked wagon with strapping is not easy if you want a "scale" surface finish while retaining the raised detail. Using primer will start to mask the detail as well, so applying primers (especially automotive High Build primers) and rubbing down will reduce the crispness of finish, compared to an etched or plastic injection product

 

Are you are being seduced by the "on trend" use of 3D printing and the relevance of cost? The former is a bit like photo etching when it first became popular in railway modelling, when some designers designed etched components that weren't suited to the technique. Multi material and process kits give better result and are more attractive to those interested in a finely finished models. Cost is importance but perhaps value for money is what you should consider. Would I buy a 3D loco kit that was at a lower cost than an etched one, when the overall finish that I could achieve was likely to be to a lower standard? No. Would I buy a 3D box van body with a "rough" finish that still needs an underframe and costs more money than a w/m version (even though I don't really like w/m kits anyway) that cost less. Again no.

 

There is also some apparent contradiction in the belief that a low cost 3D "kit" will be attractive to a significant number of modellers. Many people claim that are not interested in building their own models because they can't match RTR finish. Aren't you starting with one hand behind your back if the model needs "re-finishing" before "finishing"?

 

Please keep doing what you are doing. Hopefully 3D printing will produce models that are comparable on price with a finish that matches etched brass one day, but I think that is still some way off. No doubt although there will be those who will rush to tell me otherwise but no one can provide evidence of what the future will bring and when. 

 

And would I get the satisfaction out of building a 3D printed kit? I don't think I would. I have built resin cast models from 3D patterns, so relatively easy (but not much more than a Slaters or Ratio wagon kit), but don't get as much satisfaction as from building an etched loco or coach. So for those of us where making the a model is a large part of the hobby, 3D printing doesn't hold a great deal of attraction. I expect it is a bit like that for you, where designing and producing a model is very satisfying, probably more so than buying someone else's product and building it.

 

Finally, don't get the idea that I am against new manufacturing technologies. I learned to design etched kits some years ago. I have designed laser kit items for my layout. However, the processes, materials and finishes have to be relevant and appropriate to the desired end result. Ever built a laser cut plywood model with etched planking details of a horse drawn van and in "getting rid"  of the grain, you also fill the planking detail?

 

Jol

[jjb1970]

I think 3D printing has immense potential to change the hobby and find it a hugely exciting area. I think it is one of those technologies that was overhyped initially which led to a lot of scepticism when it wasn't quite as simple as perhaps sold by some. However fundamentally the technology opens up lots of possibilities. The problem was that many seemed to think that it was a matter of pressing a key and a model would appear out of the ether rather than it being a new branch of kit building.

Edited March 18, 2018 by jjb1970

[Clearwater]

I think in this discussion of 3D material types, we’re in danger of overlooking where the real skill/intellectual property rests. To me, the barrier to entry here is understanding the software programme to produce a printable design. An important sub set of that design skill is to be able to recognise what parts need to be separate and how to design it to be fitted to a chassis. In many respects, that’s no different to designing an etched kit.

 

David