TMC announce NER G5 0-4-4T

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

I would agree.

 

So, what paint does he use?!?

 

NER saxony green perhaps ?

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

NER saxony green perhaps ?

 

Hilarious. I am only aware of one paint sold as this shade for modellers, Phoenix Precision P525, which the manufacturer simply calls "N.E.R. Loco Green"

 

Given that Bachmann's model is ostensibly wearing NER Saxony green, and this appears significantly different from Mr Moore's models, I'm afraid all bets are off as to what paint Mr Moore uses. All I can say is that I prefer his choice! 

 

This one (7mm) is painted by Warren Hayward:

 

 

And this (also 7mm) by John Cockcroft.

 

[thetalkinlens]

32 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Hilarious. I am only aware of one paint sold as this shade for modellers, Phoenix Precision P525, which the manufacturer simply calls "N.E.R. Loco Green"

 

Given that Bachmann's model is ostensibly wearing NER Saxony green, and this appears significantly different from Mr Moore's models, I'm afraid all bets are off as to what paint Mr Moore uses. All I can say is that I prefer his choice! 

 

This one (7mm) is painted by Warren Hayward:

 

 

And this (also 7mm) by John Cockcroft.

 

 

Paul's saxony green is his own mix. I have a swatch of it, so will try and take a picture alongside the TMC Class O for comparison.

 

I've also seen Paul's swatch alongside the Phoenix Precision NER loco green and put it this way... I won't be buying the Phoenix one! 

Edited June 27, 2023 by thetalkinlens

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, thetalkinlens said:

 

Paul's saxony green is his own mix. I have a swatch of it, so will try and take a picture alongside the TMC Class O for comparison.

 

I've also seen Paul's swatch alongside the Phoenix Precision NER loco green and put it this way... I won't be buying the Phoenix one! 

 

Thank you. I rather suspected it might have to have been 'home brew'. I would be fascinated to see the comparison. 

[Porcy Mane]

5 hours ago, Edwardian said:

So, what paint does he use?!?

 

Predominantly cellulose.

[Andy Healey]

Anyone received 35-253Z yet, I paid a few weeks ago, may have to chase them although it does say late June.

[New Haven Neil]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Hilarious. I am only aware of one paint sold as this shade for modellers, Phoenix Precision P525, which the manufacturer simply calls "N.E.R. Loco Green"

 

Given that Bachmann's model is ostensibly wearing NER Saxony green, and this appears significantly different from Mr Moore's models, I'm afraid all bets are off as to what paint Mr Moore uses. All I can say is that I prefer his choice! 

 

This one (7mm) is painted by Warren Hayward:

 

 

And this (also 7mm) by John Cockcroft.

 

 

Ohhhrrrrr that H class 🥰 .....one of my favourite locos anyway, but that model is luscious.

[AY Mod]

24 minutes ago, Andy Healey said:

Anyone received 35-253Z yet, I paid a few weeks ago, may have to chase them although it does say late June.

 

I believe they will be landing up in the moors very soon. 35-259Z and 35-259ZSF will be the last to land, a short way behind.

[DougN]

I haver heard that a number of the first batch are starting to land here in Australia. I am expecting that mine should arrive today/ tomorrow as a mate here in Melbourne received his and he is extremely happy with it.  The photos via SMS last night really does show how good these models are! 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

This NER G1 (from a London Road Models kit) was painted in cellulose paint, which was matched to PPP525 NER Loco Green. The previous owner(s) of Precision Paints had gone to some lengths to research railway colours and that is probably the best guess we have available to us today.

 

 

 

 

Here is a close up photo of the tender front, taken during the build. The colour appears darker. Same camera, different lighting?

 

 

Several thing I learned, from a career in the motor industry with three  different car manufacturers is that;

 

Colour memory is very short term (normally reckoned to be about 20 minutes). The scientists at Standox used to prove this by asking you to look at a paint colour, and after a suitable break, select it from a number of samples. Rarely did anyone pick the correct colour match. 

 

Paint samples were kept in light proof safes and regularly used to check production paints to ensure accuracy and check for variation.

 

Women are far better at colour matching than men, so you all have a built in disadvantage on this subject.

 

The "same" colour can look different under different light, especially when mixed from different formulations, applied with different techniques and over different substrates, undercoats, etc. See my previous reference to Metamerism.

 

So much of what is written on this and other threads about correct/accurate colour rendition is, frankly, unreliable (a more forceful word springs to mind). Even where original paint mixing formulae's exist (such as those for LNWR locos and carriages), the actual make up and colours of the ingredients isn't always known. For example, exactly what is Drop Black or Lead White?

 

The different rendition on individual screens also clouds the picture. Do different camera sensors produce different colour renditions? I queried that with a friend who was taking a Degree course in photography before Covid interrupted his studies. He is firmly of the view that it would have little or no impact, although software and subsequent image processing could. Colour photos taken years ago on film can be markedly different, faded, etc., so what we may think is an accurate record cannot be guaranteed to be so.

 

My view is that accurate colour rendition of a paint produced over 100 years ago is impossible and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.

 

So while this doesn't help define what is the correct NER colour for this model is/should be, neither does any of what else has been written.

[Steamport Southport]

It's always been acknowledged that the preserved J21 was wrong when it carried green livery. ISTR it got paint from somewhere like the NCB.

 

By rights it should only be in BR Black as it is a mash up of at least two different locomotives which had detail differences (certainly the wrong cab) and that was the reason the National Collection rejected it.

 

 

Jason

[Bernard Lamb]

15 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

NER saxony green perhaps ?

.....and that is where the problem starts.

From what I can gather there was no such thing. Various descriptions exist and the colour of NER green seems to have changed over time.

The best I can find is in the NER record where there is a description of the paint useed on the Tennant 1463 when painted for preservation in 1925. RH Inness quotes a mix of equal parts of prussian blue and middle chrome yellow. If you mix two base materials together that have an acceptable range in their makeup then you automatically double the possible range. I find the photographs by AY of the samples well within the accepable range. It represents a lightish example on a bright day. On a dark day in the shade, the colour more usually seen, can appear very blue and cold. As observed in severak recent photographs on here. The Beamish version is a good example, even before it was neglected. I prefer sunny weather for my models and in real life.

Once upon a time I was involved in photography, including weddings. The rule was to err on the warm side for flesh tones as this would appear to be more flattering to the bride in most cases. A four or five fold step to the red side would be lesss noticeable than one step to the blue. Bachmann and TMC seem to support my view. It might not, strictly speaking, be more representative but as a selling point, to the general public, it will work.

Bernard

[Michael Hodgson]

37 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

.....and that is where the problem starts.

From what I can gather there was no such thing. Various descriptions exist and the colour of NER green seems to have changed over time.

The best I can find is in the NER record where there is a description of the paint useed on the Tennant 1463 when painted for preservation in 1925. RH Inness quotes a mix of equal parts of prussian blue and middle chrome yellow. If you mix two base materials together that have an acceptable range in their makeup then you automatically double the possible range.

 

Exactly.  If your paint shop mixes a bucket of prussian blue with a bucket of yellow, how do they measure it? 

They won't be using a set of digital precision scales!

Do they use the same bucket for both?  Do they clean it between the two?  If they they use two different buckets, will they swap them over when they mix another batch tomorrow?

 

[Porcy Mane]

I'll just throw this into the mix.

 

Photos taken within a few weeks of each other.

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

I'll just throw this into the mix.

 

Photos taken within a few weeks of each other.

 

On film (probably a different roll, maybe from a different batch, possibly from a different manufacturer or at least a different specification), sixty years ago; scanned within the last ten or twenty years, and displayed on an LCD screen. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Compound2632

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Exactly.  If your paint shop mixes a bucket of prussian blue with a bucket of yellow, how do they measure it? 

They won't be using a set of digital precision scales!

Do they use the same bucket for both?  Do they clean it between the two?  If they they use two different buckets, will they swap them over when they mix another batch tomorrow?

 

 

The people doing it were professionals. They were working to a strict recipe that is usually still known. Most paint was bought in after a while anyway.

 

There was a railway paint manufacturer in Derby that supplied most of the companies. The name escapes me at the moment, but they were still going well into the 1970s, if not longer. They started out as road carriage painters and switched to railway vehicles which does give an idea that they were there from the start of proper railways.

 

 

I'm afraid the idea of a bloke mixing the paint in a bath tub after a few shandies the night before is a myth that unfortunately gets repeated.

 

 

Jason

[Porcy Mane]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

On film, sixty years ago; scanned within the last ten or twenty years, and displayed on an LCD screen. 

 

Going to prove the point that manufacturers haven't got much hope of getting it right and no matter how much debate, we will never be sure if colour & shade will be correct.

 

When I was a working photographer back in the days of film: if I was was working outside, away from a studio where lighting and colour temperature could be, to a certain degree controlled, one of my main tools  (if time allowed) was a Minolta Color Temperature meter, the readings from which was used to select the colour temp, of film stock to use. You would be amazed at the variation in colour rendition, even on a bright but overcast day.

 

Although digital has afforded us way greater dynamic range, I wonder how many of the "comparison" images up thread were taken following a simple white balance or 18% grey determination or just taken with the camera on auto settings?

 

P

[Edwardian]

15 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

This NER G1 (from a London Road Models kit) was painted in cellulose paint, which was matched to PPP525 NER Loco Green. The previous owner(s) of Precision Paints had gone to some lengths to research railway colours and that is probably the best guess we have available to us today.

 

 

 

 

Here is a close up photo of the tender front, taken during the build. The colour appears darker. Same camera, different lighting?

 

 

Several thing I learned, from a career in the motor industry with three  different car manufacturers is that;

 

Colour memory is very short term (normally reckoned to be about 20 minutes). The scientists at Standox used to prove this by asking you to look at a paint colour, and after a suitable break, select it from a number of samples. Rarely did anyone pick the correct colour match. 

 

Paint samples were kept in light proof safes and regularly used to check production paints to ensure accuracy and check for variation.

 

Women are far better at colour matching than men, so you all have a built in disadvantage on this subject.

 

The "same" colour can look different under different light, especially when mixed from different formulations, applied with different techniques and over different substrates, undercoats, etc. See my previous reference to Metamerism.

 

So much of what is written on this and other threads about correct/accurate colour rendition is, frankly, unreliable (a more forceful word springs to mind). Even where original paint mixing formulae's exist (such as those for LNWR locos and carriages), the actual make up and colours of the ingredients isn't always known. For example, exactly what is Drop Black or Lead White?

 

The different rendition on individual screens also clouds the picture. Do different camera sensors produce different colour renditions? I queried that with a friend who was taking a Degree course in photography before Covid interrupted his studies. He is firmly of the view that it would have little or no impact, although software and subsequent image processing could. Colour photos taken years ago on film can be markedly different, faded, etc., so what we may think is an accurate record cannot be guaranteed to be so.

 

My view is that accurate colour rendition of a paint produced over 100 years ago is impossible and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.

 

So while this doesn't help define what is the correct NER colour for this model is/should be, neither does any of what else has been written.

 

Well yes, all fine, and I don't disagree, yet I fear you are in danger here of encouraging others in the non sequitur "nothing like 100% accuracy is possible, therefore, anything goes." I am sure that would not be your position, lest it make a nonsense of your own fine attempts at recreating the pre-Grouping scene.

 

So I would suggest this is a straw man argument in this topic. While fine as an argument, it's not an answer to anything I've said, and I don't think anyone else here has claimed to know exactly what NER Saxony green (as applied at any particular period by any of the three locomotive works concerned) looked like or how to reproduce it on a model. I can do no more than point to the preserved M1as a pretty solid example, unlike the Beamish Class C, which seems to show a variety of off shades.   

 

Further no one is arguing against the difficulties inherent in the exercise. Due to (a) lack of reliable evidence, (b) the effects of changes in practice, aging, weathering and lighting conditions, and (c) the scale appearance of colour, I have always been against attempts to insist on precision. It will always be a 'there or thereabouts' exercise based on a view of what looks right on a model with a fair dollop of subjectivity.  In the case of the NER one can add the lore that the paint shops of the different works had their own ideas of Saxony green. IIRC, Darlington's was supposedly more blue and York's more yellow. I'd have to check. The point is that we can acknowledge all this results in a range of shades.  

 

Yet I think we are able to point to a given colour and take a view as to whether, for us, it lies within a reasonably acceptable range for the prototype colour it is said to represent.

 

I suggest, then, all people need to decide is whether, for them, based upon how the more reliable examples of NER livery actually appear, the Bachmann shade is within an acceptable range for that.

 

Two or three people here have said, yes, it is; they are happy with the bright sunny day look.

 

Fair enough. 

 

I, on the other hand, am not convinced. At best the model presents, consistently in all lighting conditions from bright down to moderate shade, as at the very extreme edge of what I can consider a reasonable range for Saxony green, if not beyond. 

 

So, here's the real problem, to me it looks like a version of how the prototype livery looks when bleached out by bright sun or age, but it looks like that all the time, in any but the dullest lighting conditions and, next to all other NER  models that I have, themselves representing a range in how Saxony green might appear, it is a bright yellow-green outlier.   So yes, one will always be able to find a picture of a prototype and say, "oh look, I've found a match!" but it does not follow that the Bachmann shade is generally representative of how this livery typically appears, any more than it is the case that 100% accuracy is impossible, so anything goes.  

 

My digital camera has, actually, been kind to the Bachmann model, bringing out the greens and blues in dull light, whereas in reality, in shade it mainly looks pale, too pale. In any more positive light it starts to glow like radioactive vomit. 

 

There, I've tried to be kind, but there it is. Other opinions are clearly available.

 

It's a beautiful model. I've tried to love it. But the colour, IMHO, is off by too many degrees to pass. 

 

As such, I am glad that Bachmann has thus far declined the M1 and that it chose to limit its E1 to the 1914 onward builds, so I never need to consider one in green. Bachmann is a premium brand, and its colours can be superb; witness its beautiful GWR green that has the depth of an old master painting and comparing with Hornby's sludge version.

 

So, all credit to TMC and Bachmann, but here, I fear, for me at least, they are off on the shade by a little too much for comfort.

 

I hope to God other manufacturers don't copy it.    

[thetalkinlens]

TMC No.2093 alongside Paul Moore's swatch.

 

My thoughts on this are it's not the yellow/blue shift which differs that much. It's the brightness.

 

I still have no issues with Bachmann saxony green.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by thetalkinlens

[thetalkinlens]

And why not... in Photoshop the selected rectangle on the swatch has been given:

• 60% brightness increase
• 60% cyan removed from "green" in selective colour

So that highly scientific comparison confirms the Bachmann green is both "brighter" and "less blue (well, cyan)".

Edited June 28, 2023 by thetalkinlens

[Jol Wilkinson]

33 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Well yes, all fine, and I don't disagree, yet I fear you are in danger here of encouraging others in the non sequitur "nothing like 100% accuracy is possible, therefore, anything goes." I am sure that would not be your position, lest it make a nonsense of your own fine attempts at recreating the pre-Grouping scene.

 

So I would suggest this is a straw man argument in this topic. While fine as an argument, it's not an answer to anything I've said, and I don't think anyone else here has claimed to know exactly what NER Saxony green (as applied at any particular period by any of the three locomotive works concerned) looked like or how to reproduce it on a model. I can do no more than point to the preserved M1as a pretty solid example, unlike the Beamish Class C, which seems to show a variety of off shades.   

 

Further no one is arguing against the difficulties inherent in the exercise. Due to (a) lack of reliable evidence, (b) the effects of changes in practice, aging, weathering and lighting conditions, and (c) the scale appearance of colour, I have always been against attempts to insist on precision. It will always be a 'there or thereabouts' exercise based on a view of what looks right on a model with a fair dollop of subjectivity.  In the case of the NER one can add the lore that the paint shops of the different works had their own ideas of Saxony green. IIRC, Darlington's was supposedly more blue and York's more yellow. I'd have to check. The point is that we can acknowledge all this results in a range of shades.  

 

Yet I think we are able to point to a given colour and take a view as to whether, for us, it lies within a reasonably acceptable range for the prototype colour it is said to represent.

 

I suggest, then, all people need to decide is whether, for them, based upon how the more reliable examples of NER livery actually appear, the Bachmann shade is within an acceptable range for that.

 

Two or three people here have said, yes, it is; they are happy with the bright sunny day look.

 

Fair enough. 

 

I, on the other hand, am not convinced. At best the model presents, consistently in all lighting conditions from bright down to moderate shade, as at the very extreme edge of what I can consider a reasonable range for Saxony green, if not beyond. 

 

So, here's the real problem, to me it looks like a version of how the prototype livery looks when bleached out by bright sun or age, but it looks like that all the time, in any but the dullest lighting conditions and, next to all other NER  models that I have, themselves representing a range in how Saxony green might appear, it is a bright yellow-green outlier.   So yes, one will always be able to find a picture of a prototype and say, "oh look, I've found a match!" but it does not follow that the Bachmann shade is generally representative of how this livery typically appears, any more than it is the case that 100% accuracy is impossible, so anything goes.  

 

My digital camera has, actually, been kind to the Bachmann model, bringing out the greens and blues in dull light, whereas in reality, in shade it mainly looks pale, too pale. In any more positive light it starts to glow like radioactive vomit. 

 

There, I've tried to be kind, but there it is. Other opinions are clearly available.

 

It's a beautiful model. I've tried to love it. But the colour, IMHO, is off by too many degrees to pass. 

 

As such, I am glad that Bachmann has thus far declined the M1 and that it chose to limit its E1 to the 1914 onward builds, so I never need to consider one in green. Bachmann is a premium brand, and its colours can be superb; witness its beautiful GWR green that has the depth of an old master painting and comparing with Hornby's sludge version.

 

So, all credit to TMC and Bachmann, but here, I fear, for me at least, they are off on the shade by a little too much for comfort.

 

I hope to God other manufacturers don't copy it.    

 

While we will never know exactly what the colour should be for an accurate representation, I think that we could accept that the model designer and manufacturer will have researched this as far as is reasonable. Of course that is not too say that they have got it right, but it comes down to personal opinion unless someone can produce an example of original NER  locomotive paint as applied.

 

I am well aware that the manufacturers can/do get it wrong, e.g. the Hattons and Hornby rendition of LNWR carriage lake. An example of the actual colour on the LNWR Picnic Saloon under restoration at Quainton. It is a darker colour than the Hattons/Hornby colour, as is the Phoenix Precision colour. That is one reason why I put more faith in their original research years ago, rather than the "opinions" expressed here and in other threads where colour "accuracy" is debated. I believe we are very rarely in a position to be definitive about colours manufactured and applied over 100 years ago 

 

"Yet I think we are able to point to a given colour and take a view as to whether, for us, it lies within a reasonably acceptable range for the prototype colour it is said to represent".

 

What do you take as a start point to inform your view as to what is an acceptable range? That is surely fundamental to whether you believe a colour is correct. Actually I agree that the colour depicted in most of the images of the model isn't very "appealing" (too yellow?) but I can't say whether it is accurate or not. Others however, seem to like it. So who is right? 

 

 

[thetalkinlens]

More comparisons... The left is Paul Moore's swatch and then centre is the colour sample printed in North Eastern Record Volume.3 which is taken from a sample of the 1925 painting of 1463.

 

The Bachmann green looks much closer in this respect.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by thetalkinlens

[Compound2632]

I'm perhaps fortunate that this is the only model I have in NER livery!

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The people doing it were professionals. They were working to a strict recipe that is usually still known. Most paint was bought in after a while anyway.

 

There was a railway paint manufacturer in Derby that supplied most of the companies. The name escapes me at the moment, but they were still going well into the 1970s, if not longer. They started out as road carriage painters and switched to railway vehicles which does give an idea that they were there from the start of proper railways.

 

 

I'm afraid the idea of a bloke mixing the paint in a bath tub after a few shandies the night before is a myth that unfortunately gets repeated.

 

 

Jason

I reckon that you are thinking of Masons. They supplied Midland Red paint to the original company and continued to supply it to the LMS and BR. You will find people who insist that the later colours are different but AFAIK the mix never changed. They were certinly around later than the 1970s as the last time I used them was around 1995.

What I can safely say is that Midland Red when applied to a locomotive depicted less variation than NER Saxon Green.

Bernard

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

While we will never know exactly what the colour should be for an accurate representation, I think that we could accept that the model designer and manufacturer will have researched this as far as is reasonable. Of course that is not too say that they have got it right, but it comes down to personal opinion unless someone can produce an example of original NER  locomotive paint as applied.

 

I am well aware that the manufacturers can/do get it wrong, e.g. the Hattons and Hornby rendition of LNWR carriage lake. An example of the actual colour on the LNWR Picnic Saloon under restoration at Quainton. It is a darker colour than the Hattons/Hornby colour, as is the Phoenix Precision colour. That is one reason why I put more faith in their original research years ago, rather than the "opinions" expressed here and in other threads where colour "accuracy" is debated. I believe we are very rarely in a position to be definitive about colours manufactured and applied over 100 years ago 

 

"Yet I think we are able to point to a given colour and take a view as to whether, for us, it lies within a reasonably acceptable range for the prototype colour it is said to represent".

 

What do you take as a start point to inform your view as to what is an acceptable range? That is surely fundamental to whether you believe a colour is correct. Actually I agree that the colour depicted in most of the images of the model isn't very "appealing" (too yellow?) but I can't say whether it is accurate or not. Others however, seem to like it. So who is right? 

 

 

 

I accept this is a selective quote; in my original post I was careful to explain this point, while giving due weight to uncertainty, variation and subjectivity, and have only ever commented on the basis of my impression of this model's colour based upon my perception of NER green, which I explained is based upon the expectations drawn from preserved examples, colour plates and the work of other modellers. There was no mention of objective accuracy, which is why I found your comment otiose in the context of the issues I had explored.

 

And my conclusion, you will recall, was merely that the shade appeared something of an outlier. That is subjective comment, though I feel a fair one, and I have always acknowledged that others are more accepting of it.

 

3 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

More comparisons... The left is Paul Moore's swatch and then centre is the colour sample printed in North Eastern Record Volume.3 which is taken from a sample of the 1925 painting of 1463.

 

The Bachmann green looks much closer in this respect.

 

 

Fair, and if my model looked to my naked eye to be that shade more than very occasionally, I'd be a lot less concerned!

 

If I had to hedge an inexpert guess, I'd say that Bachmann's research - to address Joel's point - which is generally impeccable, probably lead them to a good match in their livery chart, but that, somehow, the paint used doesn't quite look as it should unless the lighting conditions are just so.  

 

 

 

 

.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Edwardian
Grammar