northern stopping on-train ticket purchase

[Reorte]

I used to think that as well, but increasingly I'm less sure particularly when you look at some of the stats on card usage vs cash as contactless becomes ever more prevalent (not just in the UK).

 

I find it strange now (in London) to have to use cash.

It's rare that I use anything other than cash for small amounts. Just don't really see any benefit to not doing so. Simple and straightforward. Just don't see the point of contactless.

[Oldddudders]

It's rare that I use anything other than cash for small amounts. Just don't really see any benefit to not doing so. Simple and straightforward. Just don't see the point of contactless.

 

It stops you being saddled with carrying cash or change? Very helpful at warmer times of year when we don't need to wear layers of clothing with inner pockets etc. 

[ColinK]

They must be cheap as Tesco now issue them as Clubcards.

The cards themselves are very cheap, you can even get smartcards that you throw away after use. What is expensive is the systems behind them and the level of security with the data.

 

The ITSO standard cards as used for bus passes are very secure, but this means large expensive back office systems. Using Contactless bank cards means the transport operators do not have to issue and manage cards and the systems to run them already exist for banks, shops etc.

[Reorte]

It stops you being saddled with carrying cash or change? Very helpful at warmer times of year when we don't need to wear layers of clothing with inner pockets etc. 

Never found carrying cash or change any sort of inconvenience.

[Andrew F]

The inconvenience I have with cash is the lack of it.

[great central]

I suppose it would have been far too difficult for you to sort out the tickets beforehand wouldnt it!

 

It isnt the Guards fault the system is effed up is it but people like you revel in making their job as difficult as possible just to make a point and you wonder why he gave you the 'oh good another d-ckhead' look!

 

I suppose if they printed all 5 tickets on one slip you would then be moaning that you and one of your sprogs wanted to come back earlier but couldnt because everything was printed on one ticket, I get the feeling the railways will always be wrong no matter what they try to do!

Part, a very large part now, is customer service (I know that phrase is horribly overused but we're told customer service comes third in our priorities).

Yes the system is a long way from perfect but those of us inside the system should hopefully be willing and able to help people who find the thing confusing. I'm often presented with a wad of tickets and do my best to sort them out for,usually, very grateful passengers.

If someone who does understand the system can't be bothered then, if they're not careful, the system may well decide it can do without them!

[newbryford]

I suppose it would have been far too difficult for you to sort out the tickets beforehand wouldnt it!

 

It isnt the Guards fault the system is effed up is it but people like you revel in making their job as difficult as possible just to make a point and you wonder why he gave you the 'oh good another d-ckhead' look!

 

I suppose if they printed all 5 tickets on one slip you would then be moaning that you and one of your sprogs wanted to come back earlier but couldnt because everything was printed on one ticket, I get the feeling the railways will always be wrong no matter what they try to do!

 

If it was a tourist - would they have known what to do with 21 tickets?

 

And using "sprog" in this context is out of order.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[APOLLO]

One ticket per person (or sprog !!) is perfectly acceptable and reasonable - plus a receipt.

 

Brit15

[Revolution Mike]

It stops you being saddled with carrying cash or change?

 

Exactly - much more convenient (and quicker) to only have to carry a card or two or not even that now that I can use my phone or watch for contactless payments. No longer pockets of change or cash that you might worry about losing.  If I'm abroad I don't have to worry about having cash to pay for a meal or taxi (particularly useful if travelling in and out of the eurozone), it can all be paid for using contactless in many places.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Reorte]

Exactly - much more convenient (and quicker) to only have to carry a card or two or not even that now that I can use my phone or watch for contactless payments. No longer pockets of change or cash that you might worry about losing.  If I'm abroad I don't have to worry about having cash to pay for a meal or taxi (particularly useful if travelling in and out of the eurozone), it can all be paid for using contactless in many places.

Much more convenient implies a noticable degree of inconvenience in the first place, which doesn't exist. And saving a few seconds is hardly worth getting excited about, what sort of pressure are you under to even notice it? I'd be more worried about losing the card than a bit of cash. On the other hand having to carry a phone around all the time would be noticable. There are arguments against cash from the business side but I really don't see these inconveniences from my side, there just isn't a problem to be solved there.

[royaloak]

If it was a tourist - would they have known what to do with 21 tickets?

 

And using "sprog" in this context is out of order.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Was it a tourist? No so I dont see the relevance, you may as well have used visually impaired etc, all totally irrelevant in this example.

 

I call my own kids sprogs, although I do have several others for my 15 year old!

 

Anyway my post has now been deleted because it must have upset some wallflower who likes to dish it out but not take it back!

 

Maybe we need to go back to doffing our caps as the passengers walk past the cabs?

[jjb1970]

On smart cards and contactless payments for trains, I find it interesting to compare the various efforts of Daft to develop a network smart payment system with banks and financial services. Many people criticise the financial sector as incompetent crooks but compare how quickly that sector can roll out new payment technologies, how efficiently and reliably things like chip & pin and contact less were and how painless the transitions have been with the various efforts of Daft.

[royaloak]

One ticket per person (or sprog !!) is perfectly acceptable and reasonable - plus a receipt.

 

Brit15

If the out and back were printed on one ticket then some would use it as a season ticket instead of the return it is meant to be, that is one of the reasons why it is printed as two separate bits with the out being invalid without the return also being present.

[ejstubbs]

No longer pockets of change or cash that you might worry about losing.

 

Including through the hole in said pocket that had been worn through by carrying coins in it.  I can't believe I'm the only person that ever happened to.  More than once.

 

The revelation for me in the use of plastic vs cash occurred on a lengthy stopover at Schiphol on the 31st December 2001.  Not wanting to hang around the airport for several hours we were pleased to discover that there was a straightforward train service in to the city centre.  We were less pleased to discover that every single landside ATM was out of service due to being converted to dispense Euro notes.  Things got a lot better when we realised that the ticket machines took plastic, so we could at least get in to town and back.  We ended up spending a pleasant few hours in Amsterdam, including a delicious lunch and a bit of shopping, and all paid on plastic.  Not contactless, because it wasn't around then, but it was still a useful lesson in the pros and cons of plastic vs cash.  I remember that there was one solitary ATM in Dam Square that was still dispensing guilders, and the queue for that was immmmmmense!!

 

Mind you, I can still remember the first time I used an ATM abroad, sometime in the early 1990s.  It was in the US, and for some reason I couldn't help being momentarily astonished that it had given me dollars even though I was using a UK-issued card!

 

(BTW, I'm not really not sure what's supposed to be offensive about the use of the word "sprog".)

[LBRJ]

Quote: "Northern bosses say there is little excuse for not buying a ticket now that you can pre-purchase online or through the app."

 

I don't have (or desire) a smart phone. "App"??

 

Secondly only a COURT can impose a fine.

 

 

 

Trust me, they do impose them if you end up there.

Even 20 years ago Manchester (in particular) came down hard on travel theft.

Fines of £150 + the same in costs were not unknown; and that was failure to pay on the Unpaid Fares Notice system, not outright fare dodging. 

 

I recall a couple travelling from MIA to Piccadilly who were issued with UFN, failed to pay and received the above punishment!!!

I assume they made sure they were in possession of a ticket the next time they hopped on a train.

[Zomboid]

I pretty much don't use cash these days. The various electronic methods of paying for stuff mean that I can avoid using ATMs (which when I do use them seem to only have 20s available), don't have to then carry the change, and small transactions are noticeably quicker without having to count out change, check the £20 note I'm offering for an 80p bag of crisps is real, or fiddle about putting coins and notes back into my wallet. Instead it's tap, beep, go. 2 seconds...

 

If somewhere doesn't accept cards, then chances are I'll just buy from elsewhere unless there is no alternative. My local buses even take contactless now, which I think the company prefers as it removes the driver from having to handle money.

[woodenhead]

On smart cards and contactless payments for trains, I find it interesting to compare the various efforts of Daft to develop a network smart payment system with banks and financial services. Many people criticise the financial sector as incompetent crooks but compare how quickly that sector can roll out new payment technologies, how efficiently and reliably things like chip & pin and contact less were and how painless the transitions have been with the various efforts of Daft.

Banks invest a lot of time and effort in creating secure means of transporting money - if they don't they go bust. 

 

The DFT just writes off mistake and the taxpayer foots the bill, no comeback no risk.

[woodenhead]

I pretty much don't use cash these days. The various electronic methods of paying for stuff mean that I can avoid using ATMs (which when I do use them seem to only have 20s available), don't have to then carry the change, and small transactions are noticeably quicker without having to count out change, check the £20 note I'm offering for an 80p bag of crisps is real, or fiddle about putting coins and notes back into my wallet. Instead it's tap, beep, go. 2 seconds...

 

If somewhere doesn't accept cards, then chances are I'll just buy from elsewhere unless there is no alternative. My local buses even take contactless now, which I think the company prefers as it removes the driver from having to handle money.

The constant contraction in the ATM network is evidence that the role of cash in society is changing, even some forms of benefit is paid in tokens to ensure it is spent in the manner expected.  

 

As traders get more inexpensive methods of taking secure card payments the more cash will fall out of use, in terms of a place where I see cash is probably still king would be a car boot sale because many of the sellers will be individuals.  However, all they need is something like Paypay Here POS app and they're cashless.

[woodenhead]

It's interesting how in all of us there is a Luddite element that shows up in different ways:

• Not going DCC (that's me)
• Wanting to use cash
• Not wanting to use online banking (that's me)
• Liking physical railway tickets even though there are online tickets (i'm giving in)

We all dislike change in different ways and the changes we don't like we resist as long as we can but eventually embrace the change and wonder why we didn't do it earlier.

 

I'd bet most people who like cash for small transactions would never consider going to a travel agent in their local shopping centre with a bag of cash to pay for a holiday and then return a few days before the holiday to pick up the tickets.  Nor would they refuse to buy a bargain online because they prefer to use cash and go to their local shop and pay over the odds.

 

There once was a time I couldn't see the point in an iPhone - but now I have music when I want it, it's a means of communication in many forms, it's a camera, it's access to the internet, it's a map, it can hold my credit card (it doesn't but that's my choice), it stores tickets for shows, planes and trains, it stores documents I might need on the move and apps give me the ability to do all manner of things. 

[Poggy1165]

Oh for the gloriously simple days when you went to the ticket window and bought a little piece of card from the guy behind the glass. None of this BS, and you didn't have to book 3 months in advance to get a reasonable price. 

[Reorte]

It's interesting how in all of us there is a Luddite element that shows up in different ways:

• Not going DCC (that's me)
• Wanting to use cash
• Not wanting to use online banking (that's me)
• Liking physical railway tickets even though there are online tickets (i'm giving in)

We all dislike change in different ways and the changes we don't like we resist as long as we can but eventually embrace the change and wonder why we didn't do it earlier.

Since the word "luddite" is generally viewed as having negative connotations using it carries the implicit assumption that the person not being wowed by the new methods is at fault. One person's "wonderful great convenience that I can't live without" is my "big complex solution to a problem that doesn't even exist since the claimed inconvenience is so utterly trivial." It's wrong to suggest that one of those positions is always correct.

 

Personally (and I think this is probably pretty obvious from the way I go on) I find supposed "improvements" for things that already satisfy my requirements for practicality leave me rolling my eyes.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Reorte

[Revolution Mike]

Much more convenient implies a noticable degree of inconvenience in the first place, which doesn't exist. And saving a few seconds is hardly worth getting excited about, what sort of pressure are you under to even notice it? I'd be more worried about losing the card than a bit of cash. On the other hand having to carry a phone around all the time would be noticable. There are arguments against cash from the business side but I really don't see these inconveniences from my side, there just isn't a problem to be solved there.

 

It might not be much but contactless just is much more convenient and quicker than rooting around for cash.  It isn't just the time saved at the till, though that is nice, but not having to go to ATMs etc.  As I said you don't notice until you've made the switch and realise the added convenience. If it is not for you that's your call, but I don't think it is going away when I see places like large chunks of Scandanvia!

 

Losing my card isn't much of an issue as people are limited in what they can do with it without my PIN, even less use if I use contactless on my watch and lose that (it locks as soon as I take it off).

[Reorte]

It might be if usage of cards (perhaps need to draw a distinction between general card usage and contactless?) results in a widescale reduction of ATMs, although that would be something of the nature of a self-fulfilling prophecy. But at present ATMs are common enough to be usable in passing without hassle in most places. Except at the NEC around Warley time.

[woodenhead]

Since the word "luddite" is generally viewed as having negative connotations using it carries the implicit assumption that the person not being wowed by the new methods is at fault. One person's "wonderful great convenience that I can't live without" is my "big complex solution to a problem that doesn't even exist since the claimed inconvenience is so utterly trivial." It's wrong to suggest that one of those positions is always correct.

 

Personally (and I think this is probably pretty obvious from the way I go on) I find supposed "improvements" for things that already satisfy my requirements for practicality leave me rolling my eyes.

Agree that Luddite used in the wrong context could be insulting but i was placing myself in that group as there are plenty of changes I haven't yet embraced.

 

I was in the bank earlier changing the PIN on my new bank card that I have just received because i have revived an old dormant account to link to my Paypal to draw down the readies i earned off Ebay last month - no way am I linking my main bank account to anything online.  Whilst there I withdrew £100 as it's good to have cash in my wallet as not every purchase I make needs to be visible to SWMBO - if i want a cheeky Starbucks or a 20 Nugget bonanza for lunch that's my business. 

[woodenhead]

It might be if usage of cards (perhaps need to draw a distinction between general card usage and contactless?) results in a widescale reduction of ATMs, although that would be something of the nature of a self-fulfilling prophecy. But at present ATMs are common enough to be usable in passing without hassle in most places. Except at the NEC around Warley time.

ATMS are becoming less common as the free network costs money so they constantly review the coverage and usage, it will only get smaller.