northern stopping on-train ticket purchase

[woodenhead]

The problem in Manchester is that there is no single 'Oyster' type solution but a shambolic list of variations on a theme which don't talk to one another - look up Get me There http://www.getmethere.com/

 

Having a Mayor is meant to solve all this but at the moment we seem to be doing something that is nothing like Oyster - probably because the transport isn't integrated like London and quite how it will be when there are four big Northwest Conurbations Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and Sheffield all acting as separate commuter bases whilst also sending commuters to the other commuter bases.

 

Maybe Northern Powerhouse have an answer in thirty years

[Wickham Green]

I think the future is in Oyster type cards or your credit / debit card and / or mobile phone etc etc as a ticket.

 

I have a Greater Manchester OAP concessionary pass, for use on buses trams & trains in the GMPTE area (includes Wigan). It has a built in chip (along with my photo). On trains I just present it. On trams I need to "touch in" at the start of the journey and "touch out" at the end. Simple. Fare paying passengers can buy similar cards or buy tickets at the tram stops (not sure if cash / card etc). I think this system is rolling out on our local buses also

 

 

I can put money on my card if I need to use it before 09.30 mon - Fri (the evening peak does not apply to concession passes here).

 

Oyster etc works in London millions of times a day and I hear of little / no problems or fuss there.

 

We need a similar scheme on our railway network ASAP - and not different variations of it - we need a NATIONAL scheme , Cards, Cash, Phones, Retina Scan Fingerprints etc etc. Choice should be up to the individual. We have the technology.

 

Brit15

All well and good WITHIN the applicable zone(s) ......... I was going somewhere recently and found all the ticket windows closed : managed to attract the attention of one of the 'gentlemen' guarding the barriers from exiting travellers and he told me in no uncertain terms that I should use one of the machines - but he did concede that it wouldn't recognise the mileage to zone boundary already paid for and reluctantly reeled me off a ticket from his machine : wouldn't take cash, of course.

 

The other problem mentioned above is tight connections : a certain nationally available Journey Planner always allows three minutes to get off the bus, cross the road and catch a train whenever it routes me through that same station ...... fair enough for someone who's fit enough, has the necessary tickets and is lucky enough to find the bus is on time : oddly that's not always the case. ( They HAVE been advised but nothing seems to have changed.)

[sir douglas]

that bit does make it sound like they assume just because its 2018 that everybody has a smart phone which they dont, i dont and i have no intention of ever having one for the foreseeable future

[Talltim]

Regarding proof of the machine being broken, what if you don't have a camera or smart phone?

Draw a picture? Act it out in mime?

Maybe even make a small diorama

Edited April 10, 2018 by Talltim

[newbryford]

Draw a picture? Act it out in mime?

Maybe even make a small diorama

 

Cakeboard challenge?

Broken ticket machine, 142 and BTP?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[woodenhead]

Cakeboard challenge?

Broken ticket machine, 142 and BTP?

 

Cheers,

Mick

plus a gang of chavs and a pool of sick.

[APOLLO]

When the GMPTE (Manchester) "touch and go" scheme was introduced a couple of years ago I remember boarding a Tram at Victoria to Bury (ELR visit), and "touched in" at Victoria. Some revenue protection officers were checking tickets further down the line., I showed them my pass, they asked me to place it on their machine. "Great - You have touched in at Victoria - "How do you know that" I asked - simple, every touch screen at every tram stop is Wi Fi linked to their hand held devices - every tram stop gives up to the second information re passengers. 

 

That's the future. We just need a lot of joined up thinking.

 

Brit15

[jjb1970]

Being able to touch in with a debit on London public transport is a terrific arrangement. The sooner they roll it out more widely the better IMO.

[E3109]

Informative post, Eatus Maximus.

Agree with Bod, what if you don't have a camera? 

 

I'm rather uncomfortable with where this is all gonna end up. First off, cash is king in my book. Secondly, this seems to suggest that the remaining Northern booking offices are indeed under threat.

 

At least the permit to travel option is available, and full marks for that. 

 

LUL don't have that option, at least as regards Priv rate. Had to get a bl***y Oyster card.

[andyman7]

You may not be the only one to think so. Nearly 20 years ago, a former NSE manager, by then working for LT (I think this predates TfL) was making presentations to both TOCS and ATOC on the advisability of joining or at least working with LT’s system. I think he got polite hearings. I see no evidence that TOC heads will be banged together to make it happen. The amount of data already available on encoded tickets is enormous. I believe there are 160 separate fields, analysis of data from which which marketing and other folk in a TOC might use to know even more about travel patterns, and tailor their products accordingly.

I think you escaped at around privatisation but the real problem is that the privatised structure was hedged around by a very prescriptive process that essentially baked in the 1995 BR sales and revenue settlement system for all time on top of every TOC contract to ensure that network benefits were maintained. However, the 'controlling mind' that created this system (BR) was essentially destroyed in the privatisation process, with the successor structures (OPRAF, SRA, DfT) operating through multiple misaligned contracts making systemic evolution all but impossible - hence the long drawn out and less then effective dribbling out of smart ticketing on National Rail.

The game changer now is the the evolution of digital data structures mean that it is possible to maintain seamless network through ticketing from the constituent parts of multiple networks and operators. It will however require a wholesale reconstruction of the extremely outdated regulatory processes - it can't just be done by banging TOC heads together, it will need to be reflected in the contract structures. There is a big prize - the current fares structure has become so hedged about with anomalies and sub-optimal pricing that an effective overhaul would be likely to boost revenue and customer satisfaction, if Government and industry can pull together to see it through.

Edited April 10, 2018 by andyman7

[woodenhead]

Technology can't wait for everyone to use it, sometimes it has to be forced upon us but I will resist online banking for as long as possible.

 

The ability to book my travel weeks in advance from a computer and delivered to my phone is great, buying on the move via an app is also a boon if the ticket office is closed, then on the platform there is now a big shiny screen that i can use to get a physical ticket or collect my pre-ordered tickets.

 

Buying on the train is a loophole fraudsters like to exploit - travel for free or lie about their origin or destination, producing a permit to travel should assist with that though there will be people who find a way around it.

 

Cash has it's place but the cashless society is marching on and as long as they get the security right then it will eventually mean only my phone is a thing of value that I carry and as most people have them they're not so prized now unless you have the latest gold iphone or Samsung not so mini.

[Mike Storey]

A few clarifications if I may (yes I work for them, but no, I am not, in anyway, a manager, PR guru, or involved in the Penalty Fare Scheme).

 

Penalty Fares, for now, will only be done at stations, NOT on the train. Not only that but currently it will only be done by a team of contracted staff (not Northern employees), though eventually all of Northern's own Loss Prevention Officers (LPO) are intended to also be doing them. As I understand it there are no plans for Guards to issue them at any stage.

 

Penalty Fares are part of the Franchise Agreement, the plan is to have 60% Penalty Fares by an undisclosed date and 100% Penalty Fares by a different undisclosed date before the end of the franchise.

 

In regards to unmanned stations, self-service ticket machines (TVM), where provided, will only accept card payments, however, before you go celebrating your excuse of paying cash, they will issue 'Promise to Pay' tickets for free, which you would be expected to obtain if you cannot buy a ticket. TVMs are planned to be in place at all Northern stations as soon as possible, but I believe priority has been given to the Penalty Fares Scheme routes.

 

If you are paying card, but the TVM does not issue the ticket you require (and I can see this one becoming a problem), you are expected to purchase a ticket upto the value of the one you require, to cover part of your journey, and then, as soon as reasonably practicable, pay the difference to the fare due.

 

If the TVM is not working, you would be expected to take a picture of it as proof that it was not working at the time you tried to use it.

 

In regards of what you can buy on the train, if you boarded at a station where you could have bought the ticket you required, you should only be offered the full Anytime or Anytime Day fare for your journey. If you boarded at a station where you could not purchase the ticket you require, you can buy from a full range of available tickets, minus any fare you may have already paid.

 

BIG error to make the TVM's the same issuer of "Promise to Pay" (used to be known as "Permit to Travel"), as a lot of the problems have been delays at the TVM's (and I have experienced this personally in the London area, several times). Should be separate machines.

[eatus-maximus]

Nice to hear something from 'the horse's mouth'.

Will there be a period of grace while the public adapt to the new system, especially this idea of 'promise to pay'?  I can see passengers, particularly infrequent travellers being confused by I, especially if the last time they travelled they simply paid on the train.

 

Regarding proof of the machine being broken, what if you don't have a camera or smart phone?

 

 

that bit does make it sound like they assume just because its 2018 that everybody has a smart phone which they dont, i dont and i have no intention of ever having one for the foreseeable future

 

 

Informative post, Eatus Maximus.

Agree with Bod, what if you don't have a camera? 

 

I'm rather uncomfortable with where this is all gonna end up. First off, cash is king in my book. Secondly, this seems to suggest that the remaining Northern booking offices are indeed under threat.

 

At least the permit to travel option is available, and full marks for that. 

 

LUL don't have that option, at least as regards Priv rate. Had to get a bl***y Oyster card.

 

No grace period that I am aware of, however a lot of Northern routes already have a 'failure to pay' scheme in place, which actually has a higher penalty of £80+, though the Penalty Fare is a more immediate payment and should, in theory, be easier to appeal.

 

As for not having a camera phone, to be blunt, Northern management don't care. For a number of years, station and ticket office staff have been fighting a losing battle with .pdf timetables online replacing printed leaflets, the Railway Byelaws and Conditions of Travel already being online only. The fact that a high percentage of the population don't have smart phones hasn't phased them in the slightest.

 

In theory all staff can be made aware of any TVMs that aren't working. Sadly that would require a certain head office department to be available 24 hours a day and they can barely manage nine to five on Weekdays (they are understaffed and overworked which means many reports don't get passed on). If it helps any, and this is small consolation, the machines should self-report any faults and the manufacturer is contracted to get things sorted as quickly as possible.

 

Despite Northern management's rather half-hearted promises, there is a very real feeling amongst staff that ticket offices. for the most part, are not here for the long term. 

BIG error to make the TVM's the same issuer of "Promise to Pay" (used to be known as "Permit to Travel"), as a lot of the problems have been delays at the TVM's (and I have experienced this personally in the London area, several times). Should be separate machines.

 

Yep, but money talks and profit is everything, one machine is cheaper than two.

[Mike Storey]

You may not be the only one to think so. Nearly 20 years ago, a former NSE manager, by then working for LT (I think this predates TfL) was making presentations to both TOCS and ATOC on the advisability of joining or at least working with LT’s system. I think he got polite hearings. I see no evidence that TOC heads will be banged together to make it happen. The amount of data already available on encoded tickets is enormous. I believe there are 160 separate fields, analysis of data from which which marketing and other folk in a TOC might use to know even more about travel patterns, and tailor their products accordingly.

 

Richard Malins was trying to do the same thing, almost as a campaign.

 

I am not sure it is the ticket encoding capability that is any longer a problem. (It certainly was 25 years ago.) I believe it is more to do with the probable modal shift (from tube and bus to train) that might take place once such arrangements were put in place, to the detriment of TOCs. This was evidenced by the transfer of the North London Line to London Overground, and its way-beyond-believable rise in patronage, so quickly. Subsequent analysis by a combined 2015 interim report of the Universiities of Sussex and De Montforte (Leicester) showed that, whatever the original claims of the journey generation for socio-economic benefit, the vast majority of "new" passengers had in fact already made the same journeys, but mostly by bus or Underground (because it had been cheaper). I am still in touch with one of the authors, and further analysis over a longer time period continues.

 

It leads me to conclude (although not them, it must be said, because the hypothesis of their thesis concerns behavioural management, centered on the changes that took place for the 2012 Olympics), that the only definitive way of achieving truly universal travel opportunities in London, will be by Anschluss by TfL, but the TOCs' tanks remain on the lawn until adequate compensation is offered.

 

The competing interests of the various operators across the Pennines look seriously puny in comparison, and should be solved relatively quickly, given the will.

[ColinK]

One of the long running problems with smartcards is that while to the user they look the same, Oyster uses one system and bus passes use another known as ITSO. The DfT mandated that rail operators use the ITSO standard. Bank cards use another system. Fortunatly readers are now available that read all three types of card. Mobile phones can also be made to work like cards.

 

As bus passes using the ITSO technology work all over England, regardless of who produced them and regardless of what bus company you use. So there is no real reason why this technology should not have been rolled out at least 5 years ago.

 

I suspect bank cards and mobile phones will take over from Oyster and ITSO cards. But there will still be a need for other ways of paying as there are plenty of people who don’t have a bank account or a mobile phone.

[andyman7]

Richard Malins was trying to do the same thing, almost as a campaign.

 

I am not sure it is the ticket encoding capability that is any longer a problem. (It certainly was 25 years ago.) I believe it is more to do with the probable modal shift (from tube and bus to train) that might take place once such arrangements were put in place, to the detriment of TOCs. This was evidenced by the transfer of the North London Line to London Overground, and its way-beyond-believable rise in patronage, so quickly. Subsequent analysis by a combined 2015 interim report of the Universiities of Sussex and De Montforte (Leicester) showed that, whatever the original claims of the journey generation for socio-economic benefit, the vast majority of "new" passengers had in fact already made the same journeys, but mostly by bus or Underground (because it had been cheaper). I am still in touch with one of the authors, and further analysis over a longer time period continues.

 

It leads me to conclude (although not them, it must be said, because the hypothesis of their thesis concerns behavioural management, centered on the changes that took place for the 2012 Olympics), that the only definitive way of achieving truly universal travel opportunities in London, will be by Anschluss by TfL, but the TOCs' tanks remain on the lawn until adequate compensation is offered.

 

The competing interests of the various operators across the Pennines look seriously puny in comparison, and should be solved relatively quickly, given the will.

The encoding of magstripe tickets is now very much in the same category as British Railways trying to improve the steaming of engines in the 1950s - rather overtaken by events. The key is about enabling the industry to integrate and use the data functionality of the real world which has evolved in capability far beyond the industry's own systems. It's a bit like Micromail - us old BR lags were using electronic mail long before anyone else but as a bespoke system its days were numbered once we all got email. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by andyman7

[Talltim]

The problem with a nationwide Oyster equivalent is that a days Oyster travel is capped at fairly low figure. If someone doesn’t tap out they get charged the cap. What would the cap be nationally?

[Reorte]

I suspect bank cards and mobile phones will take over from Oyster and ITSO cards. But there will still be a need for other ways of paying as there are plenty of people who don’t have a bank account or a mobile phone.

Cash should always be the other way of paying. Offering extra choice is good but the cash fallback has to remain IMO. Card for larger amounts and internet too for advance bookings (I look in puzzlement at methods beyond that, just don't see the point in them).

[APOLLO]

The problem with a nationwide Oyster equivalent is that a days Oyster travel is capped at fairly low figure. If someone doesn’t tap out they get charged the cap. What would the cap be nationally?

 

Nationally I think individuals should be able to set their own cap according to their needs.

 

Northern is an absolutely crap TOC, be it First or Arriva I'm convinced they are just out to screw their customers (like traffic wardens). More differentiation is required to separate out those who abuse the system and the innocent who are confused by etc and fall foul.

 

Modern Ticketing is crap also, all TOC's. Last summer I took the family on a day out to London, Booked on the web. Picking the tickets up at the machine, three minutes (and an angry queue) while I input the code, then waiting for 21 (yes, twenty one) cards to be printed. 5 outward, 5 outward seat reservations, same return and a receipt !!.

 

The Virgin guard gave me a strange look when I handed this lot to him when he asked for tickets and had to sort them out. !!!!!

 

Brit15

[Great Western]

The next step is " NO GUARDS on the train ONE man operation " !

 

kind of blows a huge hole in the companies line that they want Guards conducting ticket and customer service vice the doors....

[Wickham Green]

One of the long running problems with smartcards is that while to the user they look the same, 

........ and the readers don't seem able to differentiate between them - or at least between the holder's intentions. On my person at this very moment I have about half a dozen eight assorted contactless cards : Oyster, iLink, two from the bank, local garden centre, National Trust, office doors and office coffee machine ........ and each has to be got out and presented individually to avoid confusing whichever machine I'm using : I'm running out of pockets !

[Mark Saunders]

........ and the readers don't seem able to differentiate between them - or at least between the holder's intentions. On my person at this very moment I have about half a dozen eight assorted contactless cards : Oyster, iLink, two from the bank, local garden centre, National Trust, office doors and office coffee machine ........ and each has to be got out and presented individually to avoid confusing whichever machine I'm using : I'm running out of pockets !

They must be cheap as Tesco now issue them as Clubcards.

[Oldddudders]

Richard Malins was trying to do the same thing, almost as a campaign.

 

 

It was he. I got the talk as Silverlink member of the TOC Station-Gating Group, back in the days before FGW believed in it, but they attended out of interest, and must have seen the light. 

[Mark Saunders]

Prague Trams have a system where tickets are purchased elsewhere and validated on board! Machines are not the norm here!

 

This looks to me as another part of the implementation of DOO prior to the arrival of the new CAF built stock!

 

The employment of a Contractor to check tickets is always a bad sign and looks like the way DB went with Tyne & Wear Metro and many Councils have gone with Parking enforcement!

 

Mark Saunders

[Revolution Mike]

Cash should always be the other way of paying. Offering extra choice is good but the cash fallback has to remain IMO.

 

I used to think that as well, but increasingly I'm less sure particularly when you look at some of the stats on card usage vs cash as contactless becomes ever more prevalent (not just in the UK).

 

I find it strange now (in London) to have to use cash.