northern stopping on-train ticket purchase

[APOLLO]

I've been on the Trans Pennine Express Wigan to Manchester train when a lady asked for and got a ticket from the guard, no problem at all, yet on the same train on another day the riot act is read if no valid ticket shown.

 

There is no consistency and that is the problem. Varies from guard to guard even on the same operator's trains.

 

Brit15

[newbryford]

Even on empty evening services I rarely saw the guard when i am on a Northern service.

 

 

 

Previously discussed - see post#9 onwards.

 

I did wonder since posting that thread about it nearly 4 years ago) that it would change with Arriva. 

Two years after Arriva took over and nothing seems to have changed.

A couple of weeks ago, I was on a Leeds-Blackburn about 2000 off Leeds on a Friday - and then a Blackburn-Clitheroe - no sign of any on-train ticket check. At least 20 people boarded the train at Blackburn - and that included some that hadn't changed trains like me.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Market65]

Can the following situation be clarified beyond all reasonable doubt please, for it's a situation I find myself in all too often. If the booking office is closed, for whatever reason, and the ticket machine is having one of it's many fits, i.e. a breakdown, then are you, or are you not permitted to purchase a ticket, of any kind, on the train from the conductor guard on the train without ending up in court?

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Rob.

[Mike Storey]

Penalty Fares as a system has operated for many years elsewhere, and I am astonished it had not already reached Yorkshire/Lancashire! The legal basis for it has existed since 1989, reinforced by the 1993 Railways Act.

 

Once the initial and inevitable teething problems settle down, and accompanying general disquiet, it becomes a normal part of using the train.

 

The most long running issue has always been the problem of long ticket queues (or a confused/complex ticketing problem in front of you) both at ticket offices and at ticket machines. You are then faced with the issue of missing your train or making a dash for it. The use of Permit to Travel machines (as identified in the article) will help this, provided they are separate from the main ticket machine, and so long as you have the amount of cash needed to pay on the train. I would guess the more straightforward issue of closed ticket offices and broken machines is more easily communicated quickly to all on-train staff these days, given that all/most seem to have been issued with mobile devices? But that depends on the TOC Control office being told of the problem in the first place, and how quickly.

 

When a part of my responsibilities was running the Revenue Protection Inspectors teams, in the Kings Cross area, Penalty Fares were introduced by Network SouthEast (but no-one else at the time. I think Scotland were the next to follow.) No matter how many briefings we gave on being lenient at first, then slowly ramping up to full enforcement, we had an onslaught of complaints. A separate office to deal with the whole issue was set up by NSE at Cannon Street, as a form of regulator. Things settled down after a while, and, sure enough, takings went up through the ticket offices and the few ticket machines we had then. But the most common complaint came to be that the ticket office queue was too long, so the Penalty amount should be refunded. At first we always gave the benefit of the doubt, but this excuse began to seriously multiply, so we started to check, and guess what?.......

 

By the way, it is not a "fine". It is classed as a civil debt, and under the 1993 Act, TOC's are entitled to charge it and collect it. However, it is a fine line (geddit??) between that and a criminal act, that of fraud or deliberate attempt to "make away without payment" (or similar wording), at which point, if an Inspector or other authorised staff believes that line has been crossed, can then detain and call Plod. But he/she then puts him/herself at risk of a crime themselves, so they have to be very sure of their suspicion. You would be surprised how many ended up like that, in my day anyway. We used to have at least half a dozen arrests at Finsbury Park on every Friday and Saturday night, just for attempted "making away", and most of the subsequent prosecutions succeeded.

 

My advice is, whatever the circumstances, if, despite your genuine explanation, you are still asked to pay the Penalty Fare on the train, to pay up and then follow the appeal procedure (which must be advised to you and shown on posters). Any reasonable explanation should result in a refund. There is also an appeal process to the appeal, which was mandated by the SRA originally, so I guess is now overseen by the ORR, or the DfT? Don't know these days.

 

Sounds like an awful bore (no, not just me, the process) but unfortunately, just too much money disappears from fare evasion, and that goes back on everyone else's fares. Of course, the reported lack of evening checks on trains or on stations does not help either, but I suspect the TOC will have recruited extra staff, in conjunction with this, and if DOO does widen, that is likely to see staff diverted to this activity, because it pays for itself, and very quickly, as we found. We deliberately recruited many people who preferred to work late turns.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Mike Storey

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

This was my situation a few weeks ago: 

 

On some occasions their is a ticket man/woman at the station but this is not guaranteed and their is no consistency as to as and when they will be their. On this occasion their was no one their on the platform to buy a ticket from. The ticket machine was out of order and couldn't be used. So then I tried to get onto the app. The app wasn't working so this prevented me buying a ticket online. So my last and only resort was to get onto the train and hope that I could buy a ticket on their and that no questions would be asked. There was no one on the train to buy a ticket off of either. So I bought a ticket when I arrived in Leeds. Luckily their were no questions asked and then I then too had tickets for my onward journey also with Northern. 

 

The point is that Northern are so intent on saying that people must pay to travel, which yes it true and correct and I am not condoning ticket evasion as I always pay when I can but Northern should ensure that their ticket machines and their app are working and that staff are consistently present and available to buy tickets off of on the platform. As is proven on some occasions none of the four options to buy tickets are available so their is no option than to get on the train when you have somewhere to be. 

 

Northern are quick to point the finger and distribute blame to customers who haven't got a ticket but they should really ask themselves why. They should then ensure that situations alike the above do not occur so that everyone can buy tickets before they board the train. 

[JDW]

As much as I agree that fare evasion is too common and needs stamping out (and I say this as a time-served bus driver with plenty of experience of the tricks people try) I was on the other end of it a couple of years ago with a Northern conductor.  Having alighted a TPE service at Meadowhall (Sheffield) I was travelling for leisure so had planned to use my staff pass on a bus to get back home.  It takes longer, but is free, and I wasn't in a hurry.  Anyhow, as I got off, I saw that there was a Northern service right behind stopping at Swinton (South Yorks.) so decided to get that and walk the last bit.  Not having time to walk around and over the footbridge to the ticket office then all the way back again I boarded the train, and as soon as possible on departure identified myself as having boarded at Meadowhall and needing a ticket.  Now, I might just have made it to the booking office, if there's been no queue and the clerk had been on the ball, but it seemed pointless as the likelihood was that I wouldn't, or that I'd have bought the ticket and not made it to the platform in time). 

I was immediately confronted with the spiel about being a fare dodger and getting a criminal record, despite clearly identifying to her that I hadn't been able to buy a ticket, and that I would otherwise not have made the journey with Northern and thus not given them my money but taken it with me and got the bus.  As I say, I'm all for stopping fare evasion, but these things have to be applied sensibly.  I could easily prove that I'd just come off the train in front, and it's fairly obvious that I wouldn't have made it to the ticket office and back in time.  I wasn't about to wait half an hour for another train, I'd simply have gone on the bus, and in instances like that its easy to see why people get put off using the railway.  Even I, as a fan of train travel, was left with a very sour taste, and did indeed use the bus next time.

[royaloak]

The next step is " NO GUARDS on the train ONE man operation " !

That is already scheduled to come in on Northern hence the RMT strikes.

[andyman7]

What ever happened to Pay Trains ????

For the avoidance of doubt, Northern only enforce this where there are ticket buying facilties before boarding the train. Pay Trains were introduced in the late 60s under the basic railway principle that saw stations reduced to unstaffed halts with bus shelters and nothing else. The stations this policy applies to have ticket machines taking cash and cards and staffed ticket offices. Strengthened rules applying to Penalty Fares from this month mean that the appeals process includes a final independent stage and a Penalty Fare cannot be upheld if there was no way of buying a ticket at the station of departure.

[royaloak]

most ticket machines I have seen are card only, for security, not much use if you only have cash

If you read the article it states that the 'fine' will only apply if you had the ability to purchase a ticket at your joining station, if not then the full range of tickets will be available on the train, ie a card only machine and you want to pay using cash!

 

The thread title is very misleading because Northern are doing no such thing, yet!

Edited April 9, 2018 by royaloak

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[newbryford]

 

Brit15

 

 I hope it's paws were clean................

[Reorte]

Where I could see it getting awkward is if you change trains, particularly if you're getting on one that only stops at stations where you could pay and your first train had no facilities to pay.

[E3109]

Excellent post Mike.

It does aggravate me the way the term 'fine' is misused, for everything from taking your kids out of school for an educational trip, to a FPN on Asda car park.

As a society we really need to ensure that the real meaning doesn't become blurred through misuse.

 

Sadly I fear it's already too late...

 

 

Penalty Fares as a system has operated for many years elsewhere, and I am astonished it had not already reached Yorkshire/Lancashire! The legal basis for it has existed since 1989, reinforced by the 1993 Railways Act.

 

Once the initial and inevitable teething problems settle down, and accompanying general disquiet, it becomes a normal part of using the train.

 

The most long running issue has always been the problem of long ticket queues (or a confused/complex ticketing problem in front of you) both at ticket offices and at ticket machines. You are then faced with the issue of missing your train or making a dash for it. The use of Permit to Travel machines (as identified in the article) will help this, provided they are separate from the main ticket machine, and so long as you have the amount of cash needed to pay on the train. I would guess the more straightforward issue of closed ticket offices and broken machines is more easily communicated quickly to all on-train staff these days, given that all/most seem to have been issued with mobile devices? But that depends on the TOC Control office being told of the problem in the first place, and how quickly.

 

When a part of my responsibilities was running the Revenue Protection Inspectors teams, in the Kings Cross area, Penalty Fares were introduced by Network SouthEast (but no-one else at the time. I think Scotland were the next to follow.) No matter how many briefings we gave on being lenient at first, then slowly ramping up to full enforcement, we had an onslaught of complaints. A separate office to deal with the whole issue was set up by NSE at Cannon Street, as a form of regulator. Things settled down after a while, and, sure enough, takings went up through the ticket offices and the few ticket machines we had then. But the most common complaint came to be that the ticket office queue was too long, so the Penalty amount should be refunded. At first we always gave the benefit of the doubt, but this excuse began to seriously multiply, so we started to check, and guess what?.......

 

By the way, it is not a "fine". It is classed as a civil debt, and under the 1993 Act, TOC's are entitled to charge it and collect it. However, it is a fine line (geddit??) between that and a criminal act, that of fraud or deliberate attempt to "make away without payment" (or similar wording), at which point, if an Inspector or other authorised staff believes that line has been crossed, can then detain and call Plod. But he/she then puts him/herself at risk of a crime themselves, so they have to be very sure of their suspicion. You would be surprised how many ended up like that, in my day anyway. We used to have at least half a dozen arrests at Finsbury Park on every Friday and Saturday night, just for attempted "making away", and most of the subsequent prosecutions succeeded.

 

My advice is, whatever the circumstances, if, despite your genuine explanation, you are still asked to pay the Penalty Fare on the train, to pay up and then follow the appeal procedure (which must be advised to you and shown on posters). Any reasonable explanation should result in a refund. There is also an appeal process to the appeal, which was mandated by the SRA originally, so I guess is now overseen by the ORR, or the DfT? Don't know these days.

 

Sounds like an awful bore (no, not just me, the process) but unfortunately, just too much money disappears from fare evasion, and that goes back on everyone else's fares. Of course, the reported lack of evening checks on trains or on stations does not help either, but I suspect the TOC will have recruited extra staff, in conjunction with this, and if DOO does widen, that is likely to see staff diverted to this activity, because it pays for itself, and very quickly, as we found. We deliberately recruited many people who preferred to work late turns.

[LBRJ]

Where I could see it getting awkward is if you change trains, particularly if you're getting on one that only stops at stations where you could pay and your first train had no facilities to pay.

 

That should lead to no awkwardness.

You entered the railway at an unstaffed location and are (hopefully) fully with intent to buy a ticket at the first practicable opportunity.

 

Back in the day, especially with Bransons "enjoy the ride" mentality on XC I have found people a long way from home who were still genuinely trying to buy a ticket several hours after setting off on their journey!

[Reorte]

That should lead to no awkwardness.

You entered the railway at an unstaffed location and are (hopefully) fully with intent to buy a ticket at the first practicable opportunity.

 

Back in the day, especially with Bransons "enjoy the ride" mentality on XC I have found people a long way from home who were still genuinely trying to buy a ticket several hours after setting off on their journey!

In theory. They'll have to take you at your word though, if you could've bought a ticket at the station you changed at (would they expect you to go to the ticket office at the changing station, rather than across to the next platform for the train? Could argue that was a practicable opportunity but probably not one that would occur to many people).

Edited April 9, 2018 by Reorte

[LBRJ]

Depends on how long you had to change trains at the junction,many connections are pretty tight, so that would not be viewed as practicable.

You could also had have a opportunity to buy one on your ride to the junction.

[Ray M]

Can the following situation be clarified beyond all reasonable doubt please, for it's a situation I find myself in all too often. If the booking office is closed, for whatever reason, and the ticket machine is having one of it's many fits, i.e. a breakdown, then are you, or are you not permitted to purchase a ticket, of any kind, on the train from the conductor guard on the train without ending up in court?

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Rob.

Ho Dear

[ColinK]

Where I could see it getting awkward is if you change trains, particularly if you're getting on one that only stops at stations where you could pay and your first train had no facilities to pay.

This is the problem my wife has. Boards at an unstaffed Northern station, 5 minute journey to Lancaster, tight connection onto TPE service. No way is anyone going to risk trying to buy a ticket at Lancaster and being an hour late for work.

 

Coming home again its a 5 minute (or less) connection at Lancaster and she might go to any of three different Northern stations depending upon where I’m working.

[sir douglas]

for about a year about 4 years ago i commuted most days from sandal & agbrigg to Fitzwilliam and some of them were without a ticket because there was no guard, so a single was bought on the return but some of that, the return was without a guard either

 

many times i go from sandal into leeds or changing there to such as york, Keighley or Pudsey, theres no guard from sandal to leeds and i have to get a ticket from the window in the corner by platform 1, the other week, Easter Saturday going to York, the Guards ticket machine was broken so i was planning to go to the window again but only had 2 minutes to change so i got one on the train to york.

 

about this "promise to pay" slip, i wonder if there will be any messages on the actual ticket to tell the guard it needs to be payed for because i can see a gap there that if you got a ticket and a slip from a machine but then on the train only show the guard your ticket, how would the guard know its not been payed for, i wouldnt do it but the opportunity for the dodgers could be there

[APOLLO]

I think the future is in Oyster type cards or your credit / debit card and / or mobile phone etc etc as a ticket.

 

I have a Greater Manchester OAP concessionary pass, for use on buses trams & trains in the GMPTE area (includes Wigan). It has a built in chip (along with my photo). On trains I just present it. On trams I need to "touch in" at the start of the journey and "touch out" at the end. Simple. Fare paying passengers can buy similar cards or buy tickets at the tram stops (not sure if cash / card etc). I think this system is rolling out on our local buses also

 

 

I can put money on my card if I need to use it before 09.30 mon - Fri (the evening peak does not apply to concession passes here).

 

Oyster etc works in London millions of times a day and I hear of little / no problems or fuss there.

 

We need a similar scheme on our railway network ASAP - and not different variations of it - we need a NATIONAL scheme , Cards, Cash, Phones, Retina Scan Fingerprints etc etc. Choice should be up to the individual. We have the technology.

 

Brit15

[pete_mcfarlane]

Read the article fully...

Oh come on, it's far better to not bother reading the article and launch in to a rant about how evil the TOCs are. 

[woodenhead]

I think the underlying issue is that under the old Northern contract it became very easy to board a train anywhere, arrive into a mainline station, walk up to the gates where the revenue teams are and say "I've come from X station I'd like to buy a ticket".

 

They had to take your word for it, people would cotton on and then give a more local station saving money everyday - to break these habits they have to do something drastic and this looks like the answer to that - get a ticket or permission slip which will show your originating station.

[eatus-maximus]

A few clarifications if I may (yes I work for them, but no, I am not, in anyway, a manager, PR guru, or involved in the Penalty Fare Scheme).

 

Penalty Fares, for now, will only be done at stations, NOT on the train. Not only that but currently it will only be done by a team of contracted staff (not Northern employees), though eventually all of Northern's own Loss Prevention Officers (LPO) are intended to also be doing them. As I understand it there are no plans for Guards to issue them at any stage.

 

Penalty Fares are part of the Franchise Agreement, the plan is to have 60% Penalty Fares by an undisclosed date and 100% Penalty Fares by a different undisclosed date before the end of the franchise.

 

In regards to unmanned stations, self-service ticket machines (TVM), where provided, will only accept card payments, however, before you go celebrating your excuse of paying cash, they will issue 'Promise to Pay' tickets for free, which you would be expected to obtain if you cannot buy a ticket. TVMs are planned to be in place at all Northern stations as soon as possible, but I believe priority has been given to the Penalty Fares Scheme routes.

 

If you are paying card, but the TVM does not issue the ticket you require (and I can see this one becoming a problem), you are expected to purchase a ticket upto the value of the one you require, to cover part of your journey, and then, as soon as reasonably practicable, pay the difference to the fare due.

 

If the TVM is not working, you would be expected to take a picture of it as proof that it was not working at the time you tried to use it.

 

In regards of what you can buy on the train, if you boarded at a station where you could have bought the ticket you required, you should only be offered the full Anytime or Anytime Day fare for your journey. If you boarded at a station where you could not purchase the ticket you require, you can buy from a full range of available tickets, minus any fare you may have already paid.

[Oldddudders]

I think the future is in Oyster type cards or your credit / debit card and / or mobile phone etc etc as a ticket.

 

I have a Greater Manchester OAP concessionary pass, for use on buses trams & trains in the GMPTE area (includes Wigan). It has a built in chip (along with my photo). On trains I just present it. On trams I need to "touch in" at the start of the journey and "touch out" at the end. Simple. Fare paying passengers can buy similar cards or buy tickets at the tram stops (not sure if cash / card etc). I think this system is rolling out on our local buses also

 

 

I can put money on my card if I need to use it before 09.30 mon - Fri (the evening peak does not apply to concession passes here).

 

Oyster etc works in London millions of times a day and I hear of little / no problems or fuss there.

 

We need a similar scheme on our railway network ASAP - and not different variations of it - we need a NATIONAL scheme , Cards, Cash, Phones, Retina Scan Fingerprints etc etc. Choice should be up to the individual. We have the technology.

 

Brit15

You may not be the only one to think so. Nearly 20 years ago, a former NSE manager, by then working for LT (I think this predates TfL) was making presentations to both TOCS and ATOC on the advisability of joining or at least working with LT’s system. I think he got polite hearings. I see no evidence that TOC heads will be banged together to make it happen. The amount of data already available on encoded tickets is enormous. I believe there are 160 separate fields, analysis of data from which which marketing and other folk in a TOC might use to know even more about travel patterns, and tailor their products accordingly.

[BoD]

A few clarifications if I may (yes I work for them, but no, I am not, in anyway, a manager, PR guru, or involved in the Penalty Fare Scheme).

 

Penalty Fares, for now, will only be done at stations, NOT on the train. Not only that but currently it will only be done by a team of contracted staff (not Northern employees), though eventually all of Northern's own Loss Prevention Officers (LPO) are intended to also be doing them. As I understand it there are no plans for Guards to issue them at any stage.

 

Penalty Fares are part of the Franchise Agreement, the plan is to have 60% Penalty Fares by an undisclosed date and 100% Penalty Fares by a different undisclosed date before the end of the franchise.

 

In regards to unmanned stations, self-service ticket machines (TVM), where provided, will only accept card payments, however, before you go celebrating your excuse of paying cash, they will issue 'Promise to Pay' tickets for free, which you would be expected to obtain if you cannot buy a ticket. TVMs are planned to be in place at all Northern stations as soon as possible, but I believe priority has been given to the Penalty Fares Scheme routes.

 

If you are paying card, but the TVM does not issue the ticket you require (and I can see this one becoming a problem), you are expected to purchase a ticket upto the value of the one you require, to cover part of your journey, and then, as soon as reasonably practicable, pay the difference to the fare due.

 

If the TVM is not working, you would be expected to take a picture of it as proof that it was not working at the time you tried to use it.

 

In regards of what you can buy on the train, if you boarded at a station where you could have bought the ticket you required, you should only be offered the full Anytime or Anytime Day fare for your journey. If you boarded at a station where you could not purchase the ticket you require, you can buy from a full range of available tickets, minus any fare you may have already paid.

 

Nice to hear something from 'the horse's mouth'.

Will there be a period of grace while the public adapt to the new system, especially this idea of 'promise to pay'?  I can see passengers, particularly infrequent travellers being confused by I, especially if the last time they travelled they simply paid on the train.

 

Regarding proof of the machine being broken, what if you don't have a camera or smart phone?