Will they ever restore the Oxenholme - Windermere service ?

[locoholic]

Put run-round loops back at Windermere and Oxenholme and run it with steam trains. If Fort William - Mallaig and Grosmont - Whitby are going concerns, the Windermere branch must be too, especially with Carnforth being so close.

[Talltim]

They both have regular(ish) service trains as well tho. Not sure the the residents of Windermere would appreciate going from ‘you’re going to have through electric trains to Manchester’ to ‘you’re going to have a local shuttle using steam trains’ within the space of a couple of years....

[hayfield]

As many well known retailers are finding out you now need that something extra to attract customers, what's this got to do with Windermere ? Well a well supported visitor season attraction can support a winter schedule, its well known that in visitor attractions that you make your money in the high season to cover the operation in the low seasons.

 

Does putting on a bog standard train service ? Are there ways of increasing revenue in the tourist months (even winter season) by using an appropriate selection of stock which in its self would attract customers to view the wonderful scenery in comfort.

 

How well has the heritage stock gone down with both normal passengers and those visitors who have found out a service is available. To me looks a great idea and one wonders how a heritage service can operate when the normal service cannot ?  

[Mark Saunders]

As many well known retailers are finding out you now need that something extra to attract customers, what's this got to do with Windermere ? Well a well supported visitor season attraction can support a winter schedule, its well known that in visitor attractions that you make your money in the high season to cover the operation in the low seasons.

 

Does putting on a bog standard train service ? Are there ways of increasing revenue in the tourist months (even winter season) by using an appropriate selection of stock which in its self would attract customers to view the wonderful scenery in comfort.

 

How well has the heritage stock gone down with both normal passengers and those visitors who have found out a service is available. To me looks a great idea and one wonders how a heritage service can operate when the normal service cannot ?

 

Who can remember 1976 when the Thames dried up and Americans were cancelling visits to London!

[Titan]

To me looks a great idea and one wonders how a heritage service can operate when the normal service cannot ?  

 

Is it because DfT are not involved much, if at all?

[Titan]

They both have regular(ish) service trains as well tho. Not sure the the residents of Windermere would appreciate going from ‘you’re going to have through electric trains to Manchester’ to ‘you’re going to have a local shuttle using steam trains’ within the space of a couple of years....

 

How about a compromise, Heritage Electric? It would be its USP. Class 306 on the shuttle, 309's to Manchester...

[Zomboid]

Because WCRC are not affected by Northern's staff training issues or the various factors which led to them.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Anyone who wants to arrive at WIndermere by steam train can already do that, courtesy of the Lakeside and Haverthwaite. 

[Reorte]

Why not? If they get that paths. What you are describing sounds like the privatised railway at its best, with competition. I fully understand where you are coming from, but why not? Obviously NR will only give paths such that the franchise holder isn’t disturbed.

How's it being run? Presumably WCR drivers don't have route knowledge of the branch (when was the last time anything out of the ordinary went that way?)

[PenrithBeacon]

Surely Pat Marshall deserves to be made a DBE at the very least for enabling WCRC to reintroduce the Windermere service with classic traction? Why not make this a permanent feature with a heritage DMU?

 

Dava

Do Pacers count as heritage nowadays?

[rovex]

Do Pacers count as heritage nowadays?

 

Well they are older then some steam trains

[rovex]

 Not sure the the residents of Windermere would appreciate going from ‘you’re going to have through electric trains to Manchester’ to ‘you’re going to have a local shuttle using steam trains’ within the space of a couple of years....

 

I think at present they would appreciate any trains at all

[rodent279]

PMQs today, Mrs May (answering a question from an MP) said that the Govt would like to get to a system where trains and track are under the same control. So - more upheaval just to take us back to where we were 95 years ago.

How's she going to make that happen then? That goes completely against the principles of open access and separation of infrastructure from operations, as enshrined in the privatisation process.

Edited June 19, 2018 by rodent279

[Titan]

Anyone who wants to arrive at WIndermere by steam train can already do that, courtesy of the Lakeside and Haverthwaite. 

 

They can't unless they want a long walk or boat trip!, That line terminates at the opposite end of the lake to Windermere, and is barely any closer than Oxenholme!

Edited June 19, 2018 by Titan

[pete_mcfarlane]

They can't unless they want a long walk or boat trip!, That line terminates at the opposite end of the lake to Windermere, and is barely any closer than Oxenholme!

I meant the Lake, not the town. The point is that there's already a heritage railway in the area catering for people who want steam train rides. Converting the one remaining non-heritage railway serving the lake in to a steam operation isn't really going to add much. 

[hayfield]

How's she going to make that happen then? That goes completely against the principles of open access and separation of infrastructure form operations, as enshrined in the privatisation process.

 

 

I hope she adds the real estate as well, I can see why nationalisation will not work and also can see why the current fiasco is also failing. We need a system like the old 4 large groups owing outright the whole system, but allowing access (cross country) to other groups. Owning something outright allows big business to invest long term and run a system for the benefit of its customers. Of course in return they must adhere to safeguards  of levels of service required

[Titan]

I meant the Lake, not the town. The point is that there's already a heritage railway in the area catering for people who want steam train rides. Converting the one remaining non-heritage railway serving the lake in to a steam operation isn't really going to add much. 

 

It would add something. However I would not want it to if it results in an existing heritage railway nearby suffering as a result, which I suspect would be likely.

[Mike Storey]

I hope she adds the real estate as well, I can see why nationalisation will not work and also can see why the current fiasco is also failing. We need a system like the old 4 large groups owing outright the whole system, but allowing access (cross country) to other groups. Owning something outright allows big business to invest long term and run a system for the benefit of its customers. Of course in return they must adhere to safeguards  of levels of service required

 

But 3 of the Big 4 made constant losses even before WW2, so they would almost certainly need major subsidy to continue, and even the Big 4 needed some massive injections of public money to undertake many of their improvements, either via tax breaks or other direct incentives. It then becomes similar to privatisation of the NHS. Failures of major companies like Carillion do not add to the well of public trust over the mantra that private is always better than public (as did the lesser known withdrawal of Balfour Beatty from the NW Electrification schemes, because they could make enough profit, and which has caused a significant percentage of the delay to the projects). TfL have certainly proven that public can do an awful lot better, but only if you throw a lot of money at it. I believe the Alliance approach is about the nearest practical and publicly acceptable strategy, but of course, it too has failed a number of times, with only perhaps Scotland as the remaining example, but even that is more like the TfL contractor version which DfT seem not to like.

 

Chiltern/Laing managed two stages of their Evergreen project, on a long term franchise, which is the nearest experiment we have had to your proposal, but had to give up on the third and ask NR to do it for them. It was largely because things got too complicated and Laing got cold feet, but then railway projects will always become complex, and that route was as self-contained as you will get (in its early days anyway). So if it struggled to work there?......

[Mike Storey]

On the matter of heritage operation, it is very exciting, but hardly a public service. It does not start until around 09.00 and finishes around 19.00, and only runs about every two hours (? have I got that right? - 6 trips a day?). The more frequent bus service continues to run in between, until a full public service can return. But it is evident from the Beeb report anyway, that the trains are full whilst the buses are not. There is definitely a lesson there.

 

Incidentally, it did not start running at the drop of a hat. Route learning took place the previous week, as reported many posts ago. And it is Ms WCR, not Mr, as a few of you seem to keep saying.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Mike Storey

[luckymucklebackit]

Anyone who wants to arrive at WIndermere by steam train can already do that, courtesy of the Lakeside and Haverthwaite. 

 

So make it a round trip, park your car at Haverthwaite, Steam to Lakeside, Sail to Windemere, Steam to Oxenholme, shuttle heritage bus back to Haverthwaite

 

Jim

[Reorte]

On the matter of heritage operation, it is very exciting, but hardly a public service. It does not start until around 10.00 and finishes around 18.00, and only runs every two hours (? have I got that right?). The more frequent bus service continues to run in between, until a full public service can return. But it is evident from the Beeb report anyway, that the trains are full whilst the buses are not. There is definitely a lesson there.

It wouldn't be much use for commuting but for a line I presume is quite well-loaded with tourist traffic to Windermere then it's an adequate if not ideal public service I think.

Incidentally, it did not start running at the drop of a hat. Route learning took place the previous week, as reported many posts ago. And it is Ms WCR, not Mr, as a few of you seem to keep saying.

That answers my previous question, teaches me to read the thread! (not for the first time alas)

[The Stationmaster]

I hope she adds the real estate as well, I can see why nationalisation will not work and also can see why the current fiasco is also failing. We need a system like the old 4 large groups owing outright the whole system, but allowing access (cross country) to other groups. Owning something outright allows big business to invest long term and run a system for the benefit of its customers. Of course in return they must adhere to safeguards  of levels of service required

 

But on the majority of franchises the current system is working (with the notable exception of NR's very significant failure to meet timescales on short notice train alterations for last Christmas/New Year).   At present 'somebody' (i.e. you and I, among millions of others) do own something outright - all the railway infrastructure - but those who are supposed to manage some parts of its processes on our behalf don't appear to be doing a particularly good job.  That is basically a managerial and, in my view and experience, an organisational task which needs to be tackled and having four large (and generally impecunious) groups won't necessarily do that although they might provide a geographical incentive to correct part of the existing NR organisation, but equally NR could do that just as easily if it so decides.

 

Whatever else is said, and open access operations apart, the level and some standards, of services will remain to some extent in the Govt's control for as long as they require financial support - so not much would change from the existing franchise arrangement. Equally one of the best things which the present system of privatisation has done for the railway is at long last allowing 'track costs' to be clearly and separately identified and that has brought with it considerable improvements to infrastructure with jobs that had been outstanding for decades finally and seriously tackled and put right.  Would that happen under a strictly commercial imperative?  Well it definitely didn't under Railtrack ownership where, if anything, longstanding decline was accelerated in many locations.

 

None of which answers what might or might not be the best way but in my view the existence of a separate infrastructure authority is no bad thing and it not only works reasonably well in the UK but works elsewhere in Europe and beyond.

[melmerby]

So make it a round trip, park your car at Haverthwaite, Steam to Lakeside, Sail to Windermere, Bowness, Walk or Bus to Windermere station, Steam to Oxenholme, shuttle heritage bus back to Haverthwaite

 

Jim

Windermere station is not on the lake.

 

Keith

Edited June 19, 2018 by melmerby

[melmerby]

I hope the coaches WCRC are using are more comfortable than the Mk2s DRS are using on the coast line.*

The seats in the 156s were better.

 

* Maybe DRS could run the Windermere service like they do for two of Northern's Cumbria coast service diagrams.

 

Keith

[Talltim]

Is it because DfT are not involved much, if at all?

The DfT are paying for the WCRC service