Will they ever restore the Oxenholme - Windermere service ?

[caradoc]

On the matter of heritage operation, it is very exciting, but hardly a public service. It does not start until around 09.00 and finishes around 19.00, and only runs about every two hours (? have I got that right? - 6 trips a day?). The more frequent bus service continues to run in between, until a full public service can return. But it is evident from the Beeb report anyway, that the trains are full whilst the buses are not. There is definitely a lesson there.

 

 

And of course it runs between Oxenholme and Windermere only, with no through services off the branch. Running the line as a heritage railway sounds attractive to us as enthusiasts, but is there a heritage railway anywhere in the UK providing a genuine public service to the same level as national rail ?

[Talltim]

On the matter of heritage operation, it is very exciting, but hardly a public service. It does not start until around 09.00 and finishes around 19.00, and only runs about every two hours (? have I got that right? - 6 trips a day?). The more frequent bus service continues to run in between, until a full public service can return. But it is evident from the Beeb report anyway, that the trains are full whilst the buses are not. There is definitely a lesson there.

 

Incidentally, it did not start running at the drop of a hat. Route learning took place the previous week, as reported many posts ago. And it is Ms WCR, not Mr, as a few of you seem to keep saying.

Plus some WCRC staff will have route knowledge from route conducting/driving engineering trains etc so will only need route refreshing.

[PenrithBeacon]

How's she going to make that happen then? That goes completely against the principles of open access and separation of infrastructure from operations, as enshrined in the privatisation process.

Not sure about this. By the 1890s the concept had been developed whereby the railway was a 'permissive right of way'. This is to say that any railway company could run over the lines of another provided they could demonstrate the need and pay the appropriate access charges

I would imagine that much the same would apply here.

[Zomboid]

That would have applied to things like the LSWR running through Exeter St David's or the various inter regional trains which ran across the country, but I doubt the GWR would have got anywhere if they'd proposed running a train from Paddington to Sheffield via the GCR, for example.

[locoholic]

Not sure about this. By the 1890s the concept had been developed whereby the railway was a 'permissive right of way'. This is to say that any railway company could run over the lines of another provided they could demonstrate the need and pay the appropriate access charges

I would imagine that much the same would apply here.

I think you are talking about running powers granted to one company over the route of another. I believe these rights were usually granted during the parliamenary procedure prior to the passing of the Act of Parliament needed to construct a route. Many such running powers were granted to avoid the construction of duplicated routes, or as a concession to induce a competing company to withdraw their objection to a line. They were usually strictly limited to a particular route. Of course, other routes or stations were jointly owned, so you would see trains of two or more companies sharing those lines.

 

Running powers were often strongly contested, leading to protracted court battles. There was no overall permissive right of way that gave a railway company the right to run its trains over another railway's lines.

[62613]

I think you are talking about running powers granted to one company over the route of another. I believe these rights were usually granted during the parliamenary procedure prior to the passing of the Act of Parliament needed to construct a route. Many such running powers were granted to avoid the construction of duplicated routes, or as a concession to induce a competing company to withdraw their objection to a line. They were usually strictly limited to a particular route. Of course, other routes or stations were jointly owned, so you would see trains of two or more companies sharing those lines.

 

Running powers were often strongly contested, leading to protracted court battles. There was no overall permissive right of way that gave a railway company the right to run its trains over another railway's lines.

One such line was that which allowed the LNWR to run its trains from Manchester Exchange via Miles Platting and Ashton to Stalybridge and the East, over L & Y metals

Edited June 19, 2018 by 62613

[G-BOAF]

I might be being out of order here on what is a good news story for the heritage sector, but isn't this a bit of a slap in the face for Tyseley/Vintage Trains. Having had WCRC saying we can't provide train crews, and leading to the cancellation of their 2018 program, they now magically have crews for a rather intensive programme at the drop of a hat.

OK, i have no idea whether WCRC drivers are all trained on steam (if not, this service is obviously using their diesel drivers), but I thought Tyseley themselves provided some of their train crew under WCRC registration, and WCRC's pull out was due to crewing more generally.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[The Stationmaster]

I might be being out of order here on what is a good news story for the heritage sector, but isn't this a bit of a slap in the face for Tyseley/Vintage Trains. Having had WCRC saying we can't provide train crews, and leading to the cancellation of their 2018 program, they now magically have crews for a rather intensive programme at the drop of a hat.

OK, i have no idea whether WCRC drivers are all trained on steam (if not, this service is obviously using their diesel drivers), but I thought Tyseley themselves provided some of their train crew under WCRC registration, and WCRC's pull out was due to crewing more generally.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

I was under the impression - perhaps incorrectly? - that 'Tyseley' operate speculative steam hauled excursion trains and are therefore not in the business of providing a substitute train service when normal trains can't run for any particular reason.

 

 To be honest I'm not entirely sure if WCRC have a licence which permits them to do that but it is quite possible that they do.  What is happening in this case is that another operator has been brought in, thanks to local community pressure, to provide a partial passenger train service while the franchisee cannot manage that due to resource shortages.  And no doubt ordinary tickets booked anywhere on the national network to this branch will be available on these trains (especially if DfT is paying for them).

[clachnaharry]

It would be nice if the organisers of the service could get hold of Lion, (or a 14xx), a lowmac, a carriage body and a Toad...

[lmsforever]

Plus of course the bar opens as soon as the train departs with a gorgeous young blond  barmaid and possibly a pig in the Toad!

[Mike Storey]

 What is happening in this case is that another operator has been brought in, thanks to local community pressure, to provide a partial passenger train service while the franchisee cannot manage that due to resource shortages.  And no doubt ordinary tickets booked anywhere on the national network to this branch will be available on these trains (especially if DfT is paying for them).

 

What appears to be rather bizarre is that Northern are refusing to mention them at all on their web site (as far as I can see), whereas the WRC trains are clearly shown on the National Rail site. I know it is not usual for TOC sites to mention other operators, but you would have thought on this occasion......

[G-BOAF]

I was under the impression - perhaps incorrectly? - that 'Tyseley' operate speculative steam hauled excursion trains and are therefore not in the business of providing a substitute train service when normal trains can't run for any particular reason.

 

 To be honest I'm not entirely sure if WCRC have a licence which permits them to do that but it is quite possible that they do.  What is happening in this case is that another operator has been brought in, thanks to local community pressure, to provide a partial passenger train service while the franchisee cannot manage that due to resource shortages.  And no doubt ordinary tickets booked anywhere on the national network to this branch will be available on these trains (especially if DfT is paying for them).

 

I don't think I explained myself. I wasn't suggesting Tyseley should be operating these extra trains, I was pointing out that the reason why the VT schedule for 2018 was cancelled, was because WCRC couldn't provide crews. Now they are suddenly finding resources for running these extra trains at the drop of a hat. How does this fit in with their justification for dropping out of the VT work?

[caradoc]

Presumably being so close to their home at Carnforth makes providing crews (and locos and stock) very simple ?

[The Stationmaster]

I don't think I explained myself. I wasn't suggesting Tyseley should be operating these extra trains, I was pointing out that the reason why the VT schedule for 2018 was cancelled, was because WCRC couldn't provide crews. Now they are suddenly finding resources for running these extra trains at the drop of a hat. How does this fit in with their justification for dropping out of the VT work?

 

Could well be that what they could supply were suitably qualified steam crews with the necessary route Knowledge (which I could readily understand in view of their past history).  Finding qualified diesel Drivers to work over a simple route close to base is a very different situation.

[newbryford]

How's it being run? Presumably WCR drivers don't have route knowledge of the branch (when was the last time anything out of the ordinary went that way?)

 

There was test train down the branch quite recently. It's not unknown for WC drivers to do jobs for the Orange and yellow team.......

[newbryford]

The DfT are paying for the WCRC service

 

And because of that - it's free...........!

 

Reports are that  Northern staff are directing folk to the adjacent bus service.

 

Fun video:

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited June 19, 2018 by newbryford

[Market65]

What appears to be rather bizarre is that Northern are refusing to mention them at all on their web site (as far as I can see), whereas the WRC trains are clearly shown on the National Rail site. I know it is not usual for TOC sites to mention other operators, but you would have thought on this occasion......

Hi. I’ve just put in a journey to Windermere from Oxenholme 10.00 a.m. today in the National Rail site, and it’s come up with buses only. How do you get the trains to show on there please?

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

[newbryford]

Hi. I’ve just put in a journey to Windermere from Oxenholme 10.00 a.m. today in the National Rail site, and it’s come up with buses only. How do you get the trains to show on there please?

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

 

Look at Realtimetrains for Oxenholme and use West Coast (WR) in the TOC check box

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/OXN/2018/06/20/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt&toc=WR

 

Cheers,

Mick

[jjb1970]

I heard that the WCR server has been hacked by China and Russia to get access to their cloak of invisibility stealth technology.

[009 micro modeller]

Why is it free? I would expect it to be 'free' in the sense that there's no charge on top of the normal tickets, but it seems odd for there to be no cost at all.

[woodenhead]

Well it's all fun for the people who wish to travel 10 miles between Oxenholme and Windermere and now have a bus and a train service to choose from.

 

However, who is putting on extra trains or sorting out delays in existing services and fixing the strikes for the rest of Northern's long suffering passengers.

[Mike Storey]

Hi. I’ve just put in a journey to Windermere from Oxenholme 10.00 a.m. today in the National Rail site, and it’s come up with buses only. How do you get the trains to show on there please?

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

 

That is really weird. I have just put the same enquiry into the Journey Planner as I did yesterday, and I am getting the same result as you. Yesterday it showed both trains and buses.

 

Realtime Trains shows the WCR trains are running, as at the same times as before.

 

But when you go into Live Departure Boards for Windermere on the National Rail site, it does show a WCR train, but instead of the usual 09.25 or the usual 10.40, it is showing a 10.00 WCR departure arriving Oxenholme at 10.30.

 

What???!!!

[cal.n]

I can see this alongside busses on the trainline website and app. This allows through route planning and tickets

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by cal.n

[hayfield]

But on the majority of franchises the current system is working (with the notable exception of NR's very significant failure to meet timescales on short notice train alterations for last Christmas/New Year).   At present 'somebody' (i.e. you and I, among millions of others) do own something outright - all the railway infrastructure - but those who are supposed to manage some parts of its processes on our behalf don't appear to be doing a particularly good job.  That is basically a managerial and, in my view and experience, an organisational task which needs to be tackled and having four large (and generally impecunious) groups won't necessarily do that although they might provide a geographical incentive to correct part of the existing NR organisation, but equally NR could do that just as easily if it so decides.

 

Whatever else is said, and open access operations apart, the level and some standards, of services will remain to some extent in the Govt's control for as long as they require financial support - so not much would change from the existing franchise arrangement. Equally one of the best things which the present system of privatisation has done for the railway is at long last allowing 'track costs' to be clearly and separately identified and that has brought with it considerable improvements to infrastructure with jobs that had been outstanding for decades finally and seriously tackled and put right.  Would that happen under a strictly commercial imperative?  Well it definitely didn't under Railtrack ownership where, if anything, longstanding decline was accelerated in many locations.

 

None of which answers what might or might not be the best way but in my view the existence of a separate infrastructure authority is no bad thing and it not only works reasonably well in the UK but works elsewhere in Europe and beyond.

 

 

Mike

 

I am looking from the outside and know nothing about how a railway works from personal knowledge but have an understanding of how business works. To a certain extent railways are a national asset which should have its services preserved and kept running for the benefit of the public, despite the dramatic reduction of the network (even before Beeching) there are now more than ever people using the trains, secondly the cost of train travel is a total nightmare, some facing massive costs in travelling where as others are able to book giveaway fares (it recently cost me more for a cheap day return to London than a colleague who pre booked from Nottingham (half the price!!).

 

In short we have the highest number of passengers travelling coupled with the dearest fares, simply there is money in the system

 

Now the biggest drain on income I see is the amount of snouts in the trough hovering out cash from the system. Example 

 

One group owns the track (and I guess the buildings)

Another owns the rolling stock

A third runs the trains

 

Each of these businesses have their own companies making profits, putting it simply if one company owned the right to run the complete service, not only would the overheads reduce but things like new timetable, work on the infrastructure would be under the control of one company which would be better able to dovetail these areas together better.  In business why do investors like mergers, simple it reduces costs. In my opinion we have a system designed to fill the pockets of to many senior managers/directors/shareholders at the expense of the travelling public

 

Finally we need an agreement with the unions on staffing, what's the difference between a guard and a train manager ? a name !!!  Safety on the whole railway environment has improved so much over the past 100 years in train travel staffing needs to alter to take advantage of it fully. To be quite honest I would rather have an employee (what ever name they would like to be called) walking through the carriages than stuck in a guards compartment, especially in today's world.

 

Railways are a wonderful national asset, lets treat it that way and make the most of it. It seems to me we have too many anchors dragging the system to a halt

[locoholic]

Well it's all fun for the people who wish to travel 10 miles between Oxenholme and Windermere and now have a bus and a train service to choose from.

Perhaps for extra entertainment the bus and trains could race between Oxenholme and Windermere? To make it even more fun you could call the bus a name, such as Bertie, and the train could be called something, maybe Thomas...?