RMweb Premium Dava Posted July 8, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 8, 2018 This isn't news but it may be of use to others. I have chronic lower leg pains which are unattributable but muscular/nerves not joint related. Ibuprofen gel is not very effective. Yesterday in our local health food shop there was a display of A.Vogel herbal products including Arnica gel claiming it was better than Ibuprofen. I remember my dad taking arnica pills for muscular pains. I bought a 50ml tube for about $6.70 and have used it three times. Much better relief of the muscle/nerve/skin irritation and will be using this twice daily. Recommended to try if you're looking for topical pain relief. See www.avogel.co.uk Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Arnica is great for muscular or vascular (read bruising) pain, not so much for joints or arthritis. I am still using arnica on my hip where I had a heavy fall last year, causing some deep level bruising and nerve damage. It helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 My wife uses Arnica Massage Oil on her lower back and swears by it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 I'm sure that the OP and the supportive posts that followed were posted with the best intentions but arnica products are homeopathy and therefore quackery and not medicine. There is no evidence that they work at all. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guius Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 I'm sure that the OP and the supportive posts that followed were posted with the best intentions but arnica products are homeopathy and therefore quackery and not medicine. There is no evidence that they work at all. Quackery or not, I find arnica helps with the pain associated with the cramped and knotted tendons brought on by Dupuytren's Contracture, allowing me to function in my work (manual). The only thing the medical profession can suggest is finger amputation, so really 'no contest'. Guy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Sadly there is no evidence that Arnica performs better than a placebo when used in blind trials. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539394/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 Sadly there is no evidence that Arnica performs better than a placebo when used in blind trials. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539394/ Surely it comes down to what you mean by 'evidence'? If I'm reading it correctly the trial you quoted relied on patients being selected in a post-operative condition, and the results being heavily geared towards 4 days and then 14 days after surgery? Some of the respondents on here seem to be quoting its use for muscular (or at least non post-operative conditions) over a period of time. If the test doesn't reflect the areas where people believe it has results then it's not surprising the 'scientific' test doesn't support their subjective findings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Two posts suggest the likely relief comes more from the massage of the tissues rather than the product used, I can't comment either way but having properly rung my ankle over last November, I'm of the opinion no product can "cure" me of any underlying permanent damage. Massage of the area certainly does abate the twinges though. C6T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 The National Health Service, the American Medical Association and the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia have issued statements of their conclusion that there is "no good-quality evidence that homeopathy is effective as a treatment for any health condition". Homeopathy is quackery. The thinking behind homeopathy is laughable. However, it is actually dangerous in that it risks deceiving people into buying products which have no medicinal benefit and deterring them from seeking advice from qualified medical professionals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted July 9, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2018 The National Health Service, the American Medical Association and the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia have issued statements of their conclusion that there is "no good-quality evidence that homeopathy is effective as a treatment for any health condition". Homeopathy is quackery. The thinking behind homeopathy is laughable. However, it is actually dangerous in that it risks deceiving people into buying products which have no medicinal benefit and deterring them from seeking advice from qualified medical professionals. Arnica gel is a herbal product containing 500mg of arnica per 1g of gel. It is not a homeopathic product and I did not claim it was. There is evidence of comparable efficacy to ibuprofen. I will simply state the product works and it's not related to massaging it into the affected area. Dr Dava 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 The National Health Service, the American Medical Association and the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia have issued statements of their conclusion that there is "no good-quality evidence that homeopathy is effective as a treatment for any health condition". Homeopathy is quackery. The thinking behind homeopathy is laughable. However, it is actually dangerous in that it risks deceiving people into buying products which have no medicinal benefit and deterring them from seeking advice from qualified medical professionals. Oh dear, oh dear. I'm no cheerleader for homeopathy but do find doctors very lacking in science at times. Pretty much the whole of modern (western) medicine is based on the teaching of Hippocrates and his well known use of willow bark to produce salacilic tea etc etc. Something which presumably these days would be ridiculed as homeopathic quackery? The use of dock leaves to alleviate nettle rash has been known for centuries. More homeoptahic quackery? I doubt these are the only 'natural' remedies but I'm not gullible enough to think all homeopathy works either. Another point to bear in mind is that most 'scientific' studies are funded directly or indirectly by pharma companies. What do you expect the 'scientific' result to be? If it shows any benefit from homeopathic remedies it's simply buried by he who pays the bill. As I mentioned in the earlier posting, the 'science' involved in the testing of arnica didn't look particularly scientific to me. (Other opinions available). I certainly wouldn't consult homeopathy before a doctor but I really get annoyed at doctors TOTALLY rubbishing homeoptahy when current medicine is based on what was homeopathy. (Eventually we worked out how willow bark worked and now we treat aspirin as being science) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 Arnica gel is a herbal product containing 500mg of arnica per 1g of gel. It is not a homeopathic product and I did not claim it was. There is evidence of comparable efficacy to ibuprofen. I will simply state the product works and it's not related to massaging it into the affected area. Dr Dava You are correct that this specific brand of gel is not a homeopathic product based on the fact that it contains a measurable amount of arnica. I apologise for conflating the two. Most other brands on sale are homeopathic products. Would you be kind enough to provide a link to the evidence of arnica having any efficacy. My understanding is that there is only anecdotal "evidence" and that it shows so little promise that it hasn't even rated any substantial scientific studies. You state that it works, yet there are no approved medicines making use of this miracle cure. These two things seem contradictory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 Oh dear, oh dear. I'm no cheerleader for homeopathy but do find doctors very lacking in science at times. Pretty much the whole of modern (western) medicine is based on the teaching of Hippocrates and his well known use of willow bark to produce salacilic tea etc etc. Something which presumably these days would be ridiculed as homeopathic quackery? If the treatment appeared to be sufficiently effective, it would be scientifically tested and proven or disproven, subjected to further tests to ensure it was safe and a medicine containing a controlled dose created. The use of dock leaves to alleviate nettle rash has been known for centuries. More homeoptahic quackery? The only effect dock leaves have on nettle stings is that they contain sufficient moisture such that when rubbed on the affected area they have a cooling effect. Any similar vegetation or just water has exactly the same effect. I doubt these are the only 'natural' remedies but I'm not gullible enough to think all homeopathy works either. No homeopathy works. It is based on two ridiculous principles, the key one being that the more you dilute something the more effective it becomes, even to the extent that homeopathic products contain so little of the allegedly medicinal ingredient that it is considered to be zero. Another point to bear in mind is that most 'scientific' studies are funded directly or indirectly by pharma companies. What do you expect the 'scientific' result to be? If it shows any benefit from homeopathic remedies it's simply buried by he who pays the bill. Ah, a conspiracy theory. I would expect the result to be that the pharma companies would turn it into a medicine and make money from it. As I mentioned in the earlier posting, the 'science' involved in the testing of arnica didn't look particularly scientific to me. (Other opinions available). There is so little to show that arnica has any effect on anything that no one can be bothered. The burden of proof lies with the companies selling the products and making unsubstantiated claims. How many homeopathy or herbal product manufacturers have put their money where their (marketing) mouths are and funded independent testing to prove their products work? They'd rather spend the money on deceitful advertising and carefully worded false claims on packaging. I certainly wouldn't consult homeopathy before a doctor but I really get annoyed at doctors TOTALLY rubbishing homeoptahy when current medicine is based on what was homeopathy. (Eventually we worked out how willow bark worked and now we treat aspirin as being science) Medicine is not based on homeopathy, it is rooted in herbal cures e.g willow bark. Where science comes into play regarding aspirin is that not only do we now understand how it works but we also understand how to produce it in a pure form and a safe controlled dose. It would be difficult to rubbish homeopathy enough. It is total nonsense. If you took the most potent poison known to man and diluted it homeopathy style it would have no discernible effect. The second principle of homeopathy is that is something looks like what you want to treat then it is just the thing to cure your ailment. Honestly, it is a struggle to stop sniggering enough to type this. Homeopathy is definitely quackery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted July 9, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2018 This is all getting a bit OTT. I just recommended the product from my own experience for those living with similar symptoms. It relieves symptoms better than alternatives I have used and is neither a 'miracle' or 'cure'. Information on efficacy can be found at the website listed at #1. I have no other connection or interest in it and have nothing more to say on the matter. If in doubt seek medical advice etc. Mrs Dava knows more about clinical research & drug trials than most people ever will. Nearly time for 'Versailles', they didn't do pain relief in those days.... Dava 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 I agree. Well, I don't agree but this is supposed to be a model railway forum. "Nearly time for 'Versailles', they didn't do pain relief in those days...." They did though. It was called wine or "bite on this stick". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 I agree. Well, I don't agree but this is supposed to be a model railway forum. From the forum index:- " Wheeltappers The non-railway and non-modelling social zone. " Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted July 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2018 Homeopathy is quackery. The thinking behind homeopathy is laughable. However, it is actually dangerous in that it risks deceiving people into buying products which have no medicinal benefit and deterring them from seeking advice from qualified medical professionals. Will that be the "qualified medical professionals" who get get "perks" from the drugs companies for prescribing their meds? Like when my cholesterol came back at 5.5 in a blood test, my GP wanted me to go on statins. I knew several people who'd gone on them and suffered severe side effects, so did a bit of digging about. After not taking the pills, eating healthier (was never really bad anyhow!) and increasing the exercise I was doing, I dropped the level down to 4.5 in 18 months. Also saved myself £150 in prescription fees 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2018 Will that be the "qualified medical professionals" who get get "perks" from the drugs companies for prescribing their meds? Like when my cholesterol came back at 5.5 in a blood test, my GP wanted me to go on statins. I knew several people who'd gone on them and suffered severe side effects, so did a bit of digging about. After not taking the pills, eating healthier (was never really bad anyhow!) and increasing the exercise I was doing, I dropped the level down to 4.5 in 18 months. Also saved myself £150 in prescription fees There is little doubt we have become too dependent on drugs where lifestyle changes should be dealt with first. Please don't interpret my anti-quackery stance as supportive of a 'pill for everything' approach. What you have done is the very best approach. You sought facts and acted on them. I hope this doesn't come across as patronising in any way. Well done. You should be proud of what you have achieved. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2018 From the forum index:- " Wheeltappers The non-railway and non-modelling social zone. " Yeah, I know Colin, but I was concerned the thread was at risk on becoming non social and that is not what RMweb is for. I suppose I'm just niggled at allowing myself to be drawn in but it really bugs me when people are being conned. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I think we're confusing two seperate things here. The gel mentioned in the original post is a herbal medicine. These treat medical conditions using chemical compounds, in the same way as mainstream pharmaceuticals, with the only difference being that the compounds have been grown in a plant rather than synthesised in a factory. The problems with herbal medicines are non-science related and centre around production quality, regulation, and marketing, so the result is vast numbers of products of dubious value with all sorts of misleading claims. But the science behind them is sound, even if the end products aren't. Homeopathy, on the other hand, is where they put mashed up herbs in water, dilute it down a million times, and claim that the water retains a 'memory' of the healing properties. This cannot work, and the people who sell it are either charlatans, or scientifically illiterate conspiracy theory nuts who think they're on to some kind of 'truth' that is being suppressed by the pharmaceutical industry (presumably at the behest of their Reptilian overlords). Any encounter between them and mainstream science normally turns in a shouting match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2018 I certainly wouldn't consult homeopathy before a doctor but I really get annoyed at doctors TOTALLY rubbishing homeoptahy when current medicine is based on what was homeopathy. (Eventually we worked out how willow bark worked and now we treat aspirin as being science) Medicine is not based on homeopathy, it is rooted in herbal cures e.g willow bark. Where science comes into play regarding aspirin is that not only do we now understand how it works but we also understand how to produce it in a pure form and a safe controlled dose. It would be difficult to rubbish homeopathy enough. It is total nonsense. If you took the most potent poison known to man and diluted it homeopathy style it would have no discernible effect. The second principle of homeopathy is that is something looks like what you want to treat then it is just the thing to cure your ailment. Honestly, it is a struggle to stop sniggering enough to type this. Homeopathy is definitely quackery. I'm sorry you feel your arguments are so weak you can only resorting to belittling others. Rmwebbers are mostly capable of better debate. At least pete macfarlane has explained the difference between herbal and homeopathic. How would the average man/woman/non-binary in the street know the difference? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2018 I'm sorry you feel your arguments are so weak you can only resorting to belittling others. Rmwebbers are mostly capable of better debate. At least pete macfarlane has explained the difference between herbal and homeopathic. How would the average man/woman/non-binary in the street know the difference? At no point have I belittled anyone. It is homeopathy that deserves to be belittled. I feel sorry for those people who are duped by the charlatans who push these fake cures and that is exactly why I felt compelled to comment. I'm sorry you feel offended by my post. That was not my intention and it still doesn't read that way to me. In my response I separated herbal cures from homeopathy and went on to explain why homeopathy is nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Just to throw another 'cat among the pigeons', there have been tests where the placebo (normally just a sugar coated pill) has been as effective as the actual drug. This is normally attributed to the persons belief in the product and their own body doing the rest, after all, someone with a positive attitude always seems to be healthier or gets better quicker than someone without. With respect to my 'bad back', I have (in the past) tried lots of alternative treatments, from Chiropractors and Osteopaths to Accupuncture, in the end it was Deep Tissue Massage that made the difference, and then installing a Jacuzzi Whirlpool bath. I have a bath once a week (whether I need it or not, ) and I'm more supple, and have less back pain, than I did 25 years ago since I installed the bath 12 years ago. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2018 I have a bath once a week (whether I need it or not, ) In the current weather I wouldn't like to be standing behind you at an exhibition!! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 In the current weather I wouldn't like to be standing behind you at an exhibition!! Mike. I do own a shower as well! It's just a weekly event that I relax/get pummelled in the bath (along with a pint of muscle relaxer!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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