Record number of under 18s trespassing

[Boris]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44868659

 

This is quite a frightening article when you get into it, unfortunately may be a reflection of changing attitudes in the country towards being responsible for your own safety.

 

What are your thoughts folks? 

 

(Can we try and keep it civil please)

[Dunsignalling]

Walking on railway lines is an extremely dangerous activity. That's why rail staff are nowadays heavily restricted from doing so except in closely-defined circumstances and with comprehensive training.  

 

Some years ago, I was (in a place of safety) adjacent to the line (1 in 100 uphill) when a Class 50 (not the quietest of locos) came up, working hard with nine on. There was only a gentle breeze blowing, but it was enough to muffle the sound to such an extent that I didn't hear the first sounding of the horn. Had I been in the four-foot, I would have been lucky to scramble clear when I heard a subsequent sounding and only heard the mechanical/exhaust roar of loco itself when it was 50 yards away. For me, the experience has remained with me better than any training received before or after that morning. 

 

All that with training and full awareness of the risks, and without the headphones that most of the demographic in the report can't be separated from.

 

Unfortunately, the young (especially male) unconsciously consider themselves immortal, I did myself until I'd fallen off a couple of motorbikes. A few people I knew got the message too late.

 

I've never quite understood why people who wouldn't dream of getting in the way of even a slow-moving 44 tonne truck (with steering and quick acting brakes) feel it's any less hazardous to interact with trains weighing many times more, travelling at speed, with no ability to swerve round them, and which take half a mile to stop.

 

Fencing and publicity can only do so much when it comes to keeping people off operational railways. If they are determined to ignore both, there's not much more to be done. Applied Darwinism then kicks in and, in a confrontation between a human being and even a small train, there will only be one winner.

 

In truth, the dangers are known to all and the railway would cease to function if it were made "safe" for every Tom Dick and Harry to wander about on at will.

 

We can educate, cajole, fence (within reason) all we like, but those who are determined to place themselves in jeopardy will, sooner or later, face the consequences of their actions. The lucky ones will get a severe fright, which they will hopefully learn from. The others will get into the news.

 

John

Edited August 16, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[RJS1977]

Though I can't help thinking the police/courts could do more. On a recent episode of "Paddington 24x7", the BTP in Bristol 'arrested' three youths who were trespassing on a line, then what did they do? "We'll have a quiet word with their parents". That might have worked in the 60s, but not now.

 

The lineside signs say there is a £1000 fine - no use if it isn't enforced!

[caradoc]

The report on BBC Breakfast this morning was excellent and will hopefully dissuade people (of all ages) from going onto the railway, also well done to the young man who was badly burned by the OLE for speaking about his experience. One thing that could perhaps have been added is that only trained railway staff are only allowed onto the track, and only then under specific conditions, and other staff, no matter how many years of experience they have, are not authorised to go onto the line.

[Guest teacupteacup]

Take all fencing down, if you are stupid enough to walk in front of a train, then you deserve what you get.  Any costs incurred in clean-up and delays to the rest of the population passed to the families with seizure of assets/stopping of benefits..

 

Of course the psychological effect on train & emergency staff cannot be compensated for, and its those men & women who suffer long term.

 

I blame the parents for letting far too many kids do what they want with no punishment

 

Sorry if thats blunt but its how I see it

[Zomboid]

Kids will always push boundaries, and some will treat the railway fence as a challenge. I'm sure the first event occurred around the time of the first fence being erected.

 

I wonder if the headline is actually right though, would trespass have been more or less popular back when it was fashionable to break into loco sheds to collect the numbers?

[NittenDormer]

You have to admit, walking on railway tracks is NOT dangerous for about 90% of the time, then suddenly it is, with very little warning and even less time to amend the risk assessment (if there has been one). This (the 90% part) is what tempts people. (Therefore what we need is more trains.)

 

50 years ago in this country it was considered acceptable for spotters/enthusiasts to wander all over tracks. What has changed?

 

In other countries, railways are unfenced. How do they deal with the problem?

[beast66606]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44868659

 

This is quite a frightening article when you get into it, unfortunately may be a reflection of changing attitudes in the country towards being responsible for your own safety.

 

What are your thoughts folks? 

 

(Can we try and keep it civil please)

 

I find the article on the BBC website a head shaker.

 

Within the text is a link to the "Tributes to Graffiti artists hit by train" story and the train which hit them is described as "out of service", as if, somehow, that's wrong - such articles should be hard hitting and not have words such as "tribute" within them, doesn't have to be callous, but not spurting praise either.

[Dunsignalling]

You have to admit, walking on railway tracks is NOT dangerous for about 90% of the time, then suddenly it is, with very little warning and even less time to amend the risk assessment (if there has been one). This (the 90% part) is what tempts people. (Therefore what we need is more trains.)

 

50 years ago in this country it was considered acceptable for spotters/enthusiasts to wander all over tracks. What has changed?

 

In other countries, railways are unfenced. How do they deal with the problem?

Essentially, trains have got faster, quieter and, on many lines, more frequent. The latter since the widespread adoption of clock-face timetables even on rural lines.

 

Also, of course, enthusiasts acquired an understanding of the technology and the hazards involved. They knew it was A BAD IDEA to get in the way.....

 

As for unfenced railways, any reports of lunacy don't filter through to the UK so maybe they engender a more mature attitude among the populace.

 

Perhaps it's time to unfence everything in this country and stop blaming the railway for the fate of individuals who make bad decisions....  

 

John

[woodenhead]

In the 1970s I used to spend time walking the local railway line, I also played in old factories and warehouses, climbed walls with anti intruder shards of glass at the top and generally wandered far and wide.

 

People have always trespassed, in fact there is a site many of us have perused to see records of trespass into old properties - https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/  

 

It's in our nature to go where we shouldn't.

 

What is perhaps missing these days is respect for the property you are on, though I am sure some people in the 1970s did damage too.

[scouser]

The danger of being overprotective, if kids don't discover danger in small ways then unfortunately it can happen in big ways.

This doesn't just apply to railways.

[DavidB]

I was recently on a train between Harrow and Wembley which made an emergency stop due to trespassers on the line - two young teenage lads walking coolly and calmly down the middle of the West Coast main line. They carried on walking along the Up Main towards Euston (I.e. With their backs to any approaching Pendolino or Voyager on a line with a 125mph limit, and with live LUL 4th rail tracks just to their right) as we came to an abrupt stop alongside them on the Up Slow. Apparently they were wanted by the police for a burglary and had sought refuge on the WCML, as being a place where the police wouldn't be able to follow them. It took the deployment of a couple of huge Police Alsatians to persuade them to leave the track 90 minutes later, during which time the WCML had been completely shut (although the Bakerloo Line continued running past the site for at least another 20 minutes). If those lads thought the WCML was a safer place for them to be than on the streets, they had a very lucky escape. As a postscript, my train's emergency stop had halted us with the pantograph just feet from a neutral section - fortunately with the gentle downgrade we were able to get moving again (just) and coast at walking place to Wembley, rather than needing rescuing from the section. As the first train into Euston for the best part of two hours at the start of the evening rush hour, the consequences of the lads' actions on thousands of delayed travellers was all too apparent.

 

David

[woodenhead]

Record numbers might also be in recent years, there are no accompanying statistics to show against the past.

 

I do remember the more harrowing public safety films when at school - the boy pointing a stick towards an overhead cable and the school sports day run through a tunnel - BTP have always been concerned about the numbers of people not being aware of the risks

[Welly]

I once had to persuade a 14 year old boy from sitting on the platform edge at my local station!

[hayfield]

In the 1970s I used to spend time walking the local railway line, I also played in old factories and warehouses, climbed walls with anti intruder shards of glass at the top and generally wandered far and wide.

 

People have always trespassed, in fact there is a site many of us have perused to see records of trespass into old properties - https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/  

 

It's in our nature to go where we shouldn't.

 

What is perhaps missing these days is respect for the property you are on, though I am sure some people in the 1970s did damage too.

 

In some ways you are very right others I disagree.

 

I was bought up close to the west coast main line in the 50's and 60's. There is a large cutting just south of Bushey and Oxhey station. Yes we went through the wire fence to get a better look, but none of us were stupid enough to go anywhere near the running lines, and yes we like all kids did stupid things from time to time.

 

We cycled to More Park station to see the Midland line, but never thought of going through the fence on to the lines

 

Have to admit going into Willesden and Old Oak sheds, never via the main lines but through the gates. Lads train spotting was tolerated by staff, but up to a point providing we were not mucking about or near anything which was either moving or about to

[woodenhead]

I once had to persuade a 14 year old boy from sitting on the platform edge at my local station!

Less staff may also have had an impact on numbers trespassing - if no-one stops you then you continue.

 

Back in my spotting days i was at York once and I had gone down to a footbridge (outside of the station) over the avoiding lines that had a limited view of BREL - found a gap in the fencing and stuck my head through to see what I could see, no intention of going any further but there was a tannoy and I quickly realised it was me they were talking to so head went back.

 

How many of us also trespassed in engine sheds, it might have had a different name but bunking a shed without permission was trespass.

[woodenhead]

In some ways you are very right others I disagree.

 

I was bought up close to the west coast main line in the 50's and 60's. There is a large cutting just south of Bushey and Oxhey station. Yes we went through the wire fence to get a better look, but none of us were stupid enough to go anywhere near the running lines, and yes we like all kids did stupid things from time to time.

 

We cycled to More Park station to see the Midland line, but never thought of going through the fence on to the lines

 

Have to admit going into Willesden and Old Oak sheds, never via the main lines but through the gates. Lads train spotting was tolerated by staff, but up to a point providing we were not mucking about or near anything which was either moving or about to

My local line was a run down freight branch and I knew the trips/timetabled services, I wouldn't have ventured onto a main line either - but then we knew the dangers then as we do now.  

 

I am not saying it was right or OK either - just that curiosity existed in the past just as it does now, of course there is a saying about cats and curiosity. 

[hayfield]

I find the article on the BBC website a head shaker.

 

Within the text is a link to the "Tributes to Graffiti artists hit by train" story and the train which hit them is described as "out of service", as if, somehow, that's wrong - such articles should be hard hitting and not have words such as "tribute" within them, doesn't have to be callous, but not spurting praise either.

 

My thoughts entirely, these three were firstly trespassing, secondly either vandalising or about to vandalise someone else's property, thirdly quite often the paint cans are stolen.

 

Is graffiti an art form? certainly not where they have not got the owners permission. There seems almost a bravado in marking ones territory in the most unacceptable areas, these three wer law breakers, not deserving to loose their lives, but as you say not deserving of any form of tribute which in themselves may be unwanted by the locals 

[HullCityB17]

When I was at school we were read a book called The Terbulent Term Of Tyke Tyler. Now although this may seem unrelated but back in around 1984/1985 there was a chapter in this book where the main character Tyke and her friends trespass on a railway and for some reason a train approaches and I remember her friends only just jump clear of the train but she has her foot stuck under one of the rails and has to lie flat and the train passes over her.

Now if there are books glorifying railway trespass and not properly highlighting the dangers then there will be children who think that they can copy what they have seen and heard.

 

After hearing about this story that put me off going near to the railway tracks.

Jump forward to the present day and after one person has trespassed on the Humber Bridge climbing the towers and walking along the suspension cables without any safety gear then posting it on social media this has then encouraged other idiots to copy the first idiot to break the law to trespass and risk life, limb not only their life but of the motorists driving below!

[Reorte]

There's talk here about people who poked around as children, and even putting aside the issue that the dangers then might've been both less frequent and more obvious I'm sure you were also enthusiasts who had some idea about the railway. I very much doubt that's the issue with the vast majority of current trespassers, so if something effective is to be done, and Fortress Britain will only get you so far (as well as making for a generally unpleasant place to live in), we need to get to the root of the issue. That issue is far wider than just the railways; trespassing on railways is just one symptom of it. General lack of responsibility and consequences perhaps, particularly when that starts happening across generations?

 

What I don't think will have that much effect are testimonials from people who have trespassed but survived, albeit not entirely intact, or graphic images and so on helps (although perhaps making people who have been caught trespassing assist in the clearup of someone who wasn't so lucky as to merely get caught might get the message home to them at least). Once someone is old enough to be shown such things then I suspect they'll only be effective on the type of person who isn't going to be a problem in the first place. The rest "yeah, that can happen but I'm not that careless." Some instincts need to be learned early, and primitive means are the most effective there because quite simply we've evolved to work like that - a scare and / or something that hurts at a young age is how those self-preservation instincts are built (I'm not suggesting we put young children in the way of very real risk though!)

[Glorious NSE]

In other countries, railways are unfenced. How do they deal with the problem?

Google "Operation Lifesaver" for the US equivalent campaigns.

 

Probably shouldn't be surprising, but having no fences clearly doesn't prevent trespass/stupidity/death....

 

 

 

[Steven B]

Time to remake these perhaps?

 

 

 

Steven B.

[EddieB]

The trouble is that the railways are facing an uphill struggle against a culture that presents live running lines as a playground.

 

Consider these.

 

I'm just back from Costco where they have a children's early read book "Dolly and the Train".  The cover picture shows a happy group of adults, children and farm animals on a railway track surrounding an equally happy steam engine (the cover illustration on the version sold by Amazon is a little more sensible).  Innocent fun, or are we inculcating the wrong values from the earliest age?

 

We've discussed here before how various pop artistes have recorded music videos on what appear to be well-used railway tracks.  In one instance, ISTR the female artiste had recorded without seeking permission from the TOC or Network Rail.  Again, there is a subliminal message sent about disregard for safety.

 

The degree of adulation afforded to the graffiti vandals killed at Loughborough Junction in certain national media is quite staggering and enough to encourage others to take similar risks in the pursuit of mindless daubings.  They represent an international subculture ranging from the casual trespasser (if there is such a thing) to those prepared to travel to other countries and break into railway installations to commit their crimes.

 

The attitude to wandering on and over railway tracks is different in many countries.  It seems the further East you go in Europe, the more acceptable and commonplace it becomes to take short-cuts over running lines.  The situation in the developing world is even worse.

[hayfield]

The trouble is that the railways are facing an uphill struggle against a culture that presents live running lines as a playground.

 

Consider these.

 

I'm just back from Costco where they have a children's early read book "Dolly and the Train".  The cover picture shows a happy group of adults, children and farm animals on a railway track surrounding an equally happy steam engine (the cover illustration on the version sold by Amazon is a little more sensible).  Innocent fun, or are we inculcating the wrong values from the earliest age?

 

We've discussed here before how various pop artistes have recorded music videos on what appear to be well-used railway tracks.  In one instance, ISTR the female artiste had recorded without seeking permission from the TOC or Network Rail.  Again, there is a subliminal message sent about disregard for safety.

 

The degree of adulation afforded to the graffiti vandals killed at Loughborough Junction in certain national media is quite staggering and enough to encourage others to take similar risks in the pursuit of mindless daubings.  They represent an international subculture ranging from the casual trespasser (if there is such a thing) to those prepared to travel to other countries and break into railway installations to commit their crimes.

 

The attitude to wandering on and over railway tracks is different in many countries.  It seems the further East you go in Europe, the more acceptable and commonplace it becomes to take short-cuts over running lines.  The situation in the developing world is even worse.

 

 

But we have had Ivor the tank engine and Thomas and friends, does that mean we were encouraged to play with the real things ?

 

As for irresponsable pop videos, perhaps the record companies should have been sued for trespass by Network Rail

[JeffP]

I was recently on a train between Harrow and Wembley which made an emergency stop due to trespassers on the line - two young teenage lads walking coolly and calmly down the middle of the West Coast main line. They carried on walking along the Up Main towards Euston (I.e. With their backs to any approaching Pendolino or Voyager on a line with a 125mph limit, and with live LUL 4th rail tracks just to their right) as we came to an abrupt stop alongside them on the Up Slow. Apparently they were wanted by the police for a burglary and had sought refuge on the WCML, as being a place where the police wouldn't be able to follow them. It took the deployment of a couple of huge Police Alsatians to persuade them to leave the track 90 minutes later, during which time the WCML had been completely shut (although the Bakerloo Line continued running past the site for at least another 20 minutes). If those lads thought the WCML was a safer place for them to be than on the streets, they had a very lucky escape. As a postscript, my train's emergency stop had halted us with the pantograph just feet from a neutral section - fortunately with the gentle downgrade we were able to get moving again (just) and coast at walking place to Wembley, rather than needing rescuing from the section. As the first train into Euston for the best part of two hours at the start of the evening rush hour, the consequences of the lads' actions on thousands of delayed travellers was all too apparent.

 

David

And then mags would give them a smack on the wrist, and ask them nicely not to do it again.