To DCC or not?

[Andymsa]

26 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Or the Switch 8 which is about £10 cheaper:

https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/nce/switch8-mk2

It does not have loconet connection and is just a basic interface board. The Dac is far much more, you can programme the outputs to do different things. And they do feed back which I use in Traincontroller.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Andymsa

[Andymsa]

13 minutes ago, melmerby said:

But they wont control Tortoises or analogue Cobalts without these adaptors:

https://www.digikeijs.com/en/dr4101-switch-motor-interface.html

That's another £30

what are the adaptors for exactly 

[WIMorrison]

11 minutes ago, melmerby said:

But they wont control Tortoises or analogue Cobalts without these adaptors:

https://www.digikeijs.com/en/dr4101-switch-motor-interface.html

That's another £30

 

I stand corrected

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Andymsa said:

what are the adaptors for exactly 

To convert the 12v  + C - ouputs to a reversible 12v.

I have one of those DR4018s and a load of transistors and diodes to make my own adaptors.

[newbryford]

49 minutes ago, melmerby said:

To convert the 12v  + C - ouputs to a reversible 12v.

I have one of those DR4018s and a load of transistors and diodes to make my own adaptors.

 

It's quite easy to convert a 3 wire accessory decoder output to a 2 wire reversing 12v.

I use two x 180 ohm resistors on my ESU Switchpilots to power Tortoise motors. Resistors are connected from left output to common and right output to common. Motor is connected across L and R.

 

The other method is to use 2 diodes as per this LS150 diagram.

 

 

 

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

But they wont control Tortoises or analogue Cobalts without these adaptors:

https://www.digikeijs.com/en/dr4101-switch-motor-interface.html

That's another £30

 

 

Give me strength...

 

I run mostly Tortoises , one Cobalt and a Hoffmann (the latter because it gets desperately tight putting a station throat on a board 5 inches wide, and in 2 places Tortoises wouldn't fit..)

I have also some experience with a large club project , which was fairly close to the OP's 60 points and had a "glass panel"

 

I am also a cheapskate

 

I have used NCE Switch-Its and Digitrax DS64 with complete success and no adaptors . I've used a MERG decoder kit - and (with the reservations about it's vulnerability to being knocked over by a short, in the absence of  a seperate bus/circuit breaker protection) it handled Tortoises perfectly well. My cost ran out at about £6-7 per point output  (£2.50 per output for the MERG kit) . And you can drive a crossover (2 points) off a single decoder output  

 

I've been told, by those that have done it, that a Tortoise can be run satisfactorily off a Lenz  LS150 , even though this decoder does cut of the current after (from memory) 2-3 sec, so it isn't a true "stall-motor" decoder.

 

My rule of thumb calculator says 60 points at £6 per output = £360 . On the other hand 200 loco  decoders @ £15 a pop (ie budget decoders) = £3000

 

Where on earth did this idea that accessory decoders would cost more than chipping the loco fleet come from??

 

[Edit = a quick check suggests the "going rate" for stall motor accessory decoders is currently £7-£12 per output - the latter are high end multifunction types. Doesn't alter the arithmetic very much]

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Ravenser

[Butler Henderson]

12 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 

Another option is a 12 pack of tortoise which works out to £15 per motor and your accessory decoder is a dac 20 at £65.00 per board. This works out to the same as the digital cobalt.

Only the same if somehow the extent of wiring is the same - suspect the 12 tortoises all cabled back to a dac20 are going to loose a lot more wires than 12 cobalts connected to an adjacent bus.

[newbryford]

56 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

 

 

I've been told, by those that have done it, that a Tortoise can be run satisfactorily off a Lenz  LS150 , even though this decoder does cut of the current after (from memory) 2-3 sec, so it isn't a true "stall-motor" decoder.

 

 

 

 

 The ESU switchpilot also turns off after a time, so the Tortoise can "relax" a little, but it doesn't cause me any issues.

The DCCconcepts AD-FX series decoders for stall motors  (not the ADS solenoid type) also turn off after a time - about 4-5 seconds from memory) without any problems.

The AD decoders work out at about £6.25-£9 per point motor. (£49 for 8 channels, £18 for 2 channels and prices in between for 4 an 6 way boards)

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by newbryford

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 20:53, Mike Storey said:

Paul - do you want sound?

 

 

Hi Mike, and all the other folk who contribute!

Want sound, yes, but being able to afford sound is an entirely different matter!

On this thread, what is the forum's experience of Hornby TTS, which looks to be more cost effective, although I understand that the sounds are not in sync with the cylinder beats on steam?

Thanks to all

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎23‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 10:14, Philou said:

Can I suggest that the next time OP has an opportunity to get to a town that has a model shop with a working or test layout, if he can't get to a club (I understand that OP doesn't drive), that he asks to be shown a DCC loco (with/without sound) in operation. The shop owner ought to be happy to oblige - particularly if it may lead to a sale .

 

I think OP needs to see this in the flesh and decide. What floats my boat (or our boats) may or may not be for him.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

While I agree with the sentiment of this unfortunately not many model shops have working layouts and if they do they tend to be simple ovals with maybe a siding or two which is hard to relate to my proposed layout! I have looked at a lot of layouts at shows, but there is often not much in 00 between the shunting layout, so no continuous run, and the 24ft 4-6 operator club layouts. Don't think I have ever seen anyone exhibiting a 12ftx8ft layout, run singlehanded, portraying a main line and branch/ relief line which is what my layout is all about?

Thanks to all

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎23‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 12:26, Crosland said:

 

Try running the banker up to the rear of a train without the loco at the front moving on DC.

 

Try forming a "double head"  by reversing the loco on to the front of the train on DC.

 

Both are impossible unless you have very precisely placed track breaks.

 

With DCC, both are a doddle, anywhere, anytime.

 

Hi  Crossland,

I don't want to bank (no inclines), I don't want to doublehead, as it looks a bit silly on 5 coaches, and with the cost of loco chipping (don't have skill to do myself) I may not be able to afford to continue with my aim to portray multiple eras when modern Top and Tail would be good. I don't need to move wagons from up loop across to down loop in one move via several crossovers, and I don't need a loco yard with lots of engines one behind the other. So what is in DCC for me?

Cheers

Paul 

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

On this thread, what is the forum's experience of Hornby TTS, which looks to be more cost effective, although I understand that the sounds are not in sync with the cylinder beats on steam?

 

TTS has limitations but depending on what you want, they are acceptable.

 

You cannot sync exhaust beats with wheel revolutions.

It can only play 1 engine sound & 1 'spot' sound (injector, coal shovelling, compressor, spirax valve, horn etc.) I have not found this a limitation with steam but I do with Diesel. With a compressor running, this fades out for the horn then fades back in.

TTS is effectively an R8249 with sound, so features such as advanced consisting are unavailable.

The standard speaker is not great.

 

The standard speaker can be replaced with something better. Richard Croft has done this & uploaded some videos in his DCC Sound thread on this forum & they sound pretty good.

[Pete the Elaner]

Just now, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi  Crossland,

I don't want to bank (no inclines), I don't want to doublehead, as it looks a bit silly on 5 coaches, and with the cost of loco chipping (don't have skill to do myself) I may not be able to afford to continue with my aim to portray multiple eras when modern Top and Tail would be good. I don't need to move wagons from up loop across to down loop in one move via several crossovers, and I don't need a loco yard with lots of engines one behind the other. So what is in DCC for me?

Cheers

Paul 

DCC does not limit you to isolating sections.

I have seen it argued that you should plan these in advance of laying the track, but a movement which is not initially considered may prove useful at a later date.

The real railway never kept things the same so it is entirely prototypical to run locos the way you never intended to.

 

Even with all the extras like simpler wiring, lights, sound, double heading, acceleration etc., driving trains instead of the track is still the biggest appeal to me.

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎23‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 14:28, Ravenser said:

Back to the OP

 

Now this changes everything

 

Time is now money... Time is costed at professional rates in lots of pounds an hour

 

The big saving in time for your builder translates directly into a lower build cost to you. Therefore , follow your builder's advice and go DCC

 

You want a mimic diagram, and it's probably the simplest best way to go, anyway for this layout.

 

The best known software package is Railroad & Co. It comes in 3 flavours, Bronze,Silver and Gold - none are exactly cheap but in the context of your overall budget, euros 300 is probably not a big item... Bronze will probably do all that's necessary for a full mimic diagram, with full DCC point control. (Do you want full prototypical interlocking here? It can be done with this software)

 

RocRail , freeware

 

There was a freeware system originally developed by  a member of the Croydon club , and subsequently taken on I think by Andi Dell, that did the same

 

JMRI is really programming software - a bit on the lightweight side for this.

 

Talk to your builder and probably go with the package he knows and has used.

 

I have seen a complete interlocked "glass-panel" for a similar-sized layout  built in RR &Co in 1 man day by someone familiar with the software and the layout

 

I think you should go DCC for the accessory control and panel in this scenario. Very strongly so.

 

But you need the whole accessory/layout side on a separate circuit and DCC bus, rigorously isolated by circuit breaker from the traction bus.

 

That way the layout control is protected from shorts, and your layout control remains firmly on DCC even when a line runs on DC

 

You now need to find a system that supports computer control , via a USB connection (about £125) , delivers at least 4 amps, and will support a booster for a second power district.

 

My instinct would be to put each main line (you said you had 3?) on a separate power district . One power district would also support the accessory/layout side -  but that would be as a satellite section, rigorously walled off behind a circuit breaker . (Possibly the simplest power district could be switchable to DC. I suggest - not the one that handles the layout control side....)

 

 

I think it will create lots of work, potential problems and extra cost. The way forward may be a single semi-isolated circuit within the layout plan which can be used to run the DC locos. That might involve a little reconsideration of the plan

 

Alternatively perhaps a DC branch line might be a solution? 

 

The issue is that absolute electrical isolation between DC and DCC is necessary. Absolute electrical isolation of each main running line from the rest of the layout, and the other running line strikes me as a  potential problem In addition , you lumber yourself /your builder with all the complex circuitry 

 

H-D locos are the worst of all to fit decoders . Vintage Triang may not like modern Peco points - check first

 

I would advise you to tackle the DCC Ready locos yourself. The only skills required are the ability to take out small screws and remove the body, coupled with the ability to plug a decoder into a socket the right way round. Then you can program them up - shouldn't take a lot of adjustment

 

Anything requiring hard-wiring is another matter. But getting someone else to fit decoders will cost £15-35 per loco on top of the cost of the decoder  depending on what needs to be done. 

 

So doing the DCC Ready ones yourself will save you £1500 to £3500

Thanks Ravenser,

a few points:-

Do way will I be chipping H-D or Vintage Triang Locos!

Small screws and I don't get on well, never have , and with advanced years (i'm 70) it gets worse particularly as the eyesight for small detail is not great, and my peripheral vision is poor (the hospital tell me!)

So DIY is not an option, unfortunately

Think I am going to do a separate small layout for the vintage, once I can work out a suitable space-think I need 5-6ft by 3-4ft.

 

Thanks also to everyone else who has replied.

[Mike Storey]

30 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Mike, and all the other folk who contribute!

Want sound, yes, but being able to afford sound is an entirely different matter!

On this thread, what is the forum's experience of Hornby TTS, which looks to be more cost effective, although I understand that the sounds are not in sync with the cylinder beats on steam?

Thanks to all

Paul

 

If you want sound then, for the moment, DCC is the most practical option. (There are products coming to market that can work on DC now, but certainly not the cheap TTS chips yet (?), but I believe these are pretty basic, and let's ignore on board battery powered systems for the sake of simplicity).

 

The issue between the TTS and more sophisticated and thus more expensive sound decoders is in the ear of the beholder, and some of that can be helped with better speakers. There are nearly as many functions available on TTS chips now as on the more expensive types, but in terms of driving, you have to do all the work with making each sound. With modern sound chips, they are now routinely driveable, so that the sounds will change (for example to change from puffing to coasting) just by a small movement of the speed controller, whereas on TTS you have to find the Function number to make that change and select it. This equates to the state of most sound chips many years ago, and the few I have from that era are a real faff to use compared to their modern brethren. The sound quality of TTS has improved however, especially for diesels, but to many ears, they still do not sound as good as the latest offerings elsewhere.

 

So, you and your wallet need to decide what you want from your sound! There is nothing to stop you installing TTS on a few locos and slowly building up the number of more sophisticated chips as money allows (if you find TTS is not good enough for what you want). I have not sound equipped all my units and diesels yet, as I simply cannot afford to, but I will over time.

 

I see you are in Bedfordshire - if you are not too far from Peterborough, Trains4U have a demo layout in their shop, where I am sure they would be happy to demonstrate the differences.

 

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks Ravenser,

a few points:-

Do way will I be chipping H-D or Vintage Triang Locos!

Small screws and I don't get on well, never have , and with advanced years (i'm 70) it gets worse particularly as the eyesight for small detail is not great, and my peripheral vision is poor (the hospital tell me!)

So DIY is not an option, unfortunately

Think I am going to do a separate small layout for the vintage, once I can work out a suitable space-think I need 5-6ft by 3-4ft.

 

Thanks also to everyone else who has replied.

 

A seperate vintage layout may well be the cheapest solution. 

 

Buy a Peco point and see if your Triang locos will go through it. I suspect they won't - if so , you're going to be forced into a seperate vintage DC layout anyway

[Tallpaul69]

7 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

Hi Paul

 

Going right back to the beginning of this thread, I'd say that Clive's questions are what it is all about.

 

Whilst people have listed the many features that DCC offers, they are only benefits if you personally want them - sound is a good example - I hate it, find it distracting and rarely realistic - but that is my personal point of view and others may love it.

 

DC wiring can be complex - especially on a complex layout, but I have yet to see a complex DCC layout that has just 2 wires, and it will also need a lot of programming.

 

My personal view is that unless you want a fully automated layout that you can switch on, shut the door, and leave to run itself, in all other cases the limit as to how many trains you can run, with how many functions operating and how many accessories being switched, lies in the brain of the operator, not the control system they are using.

 

I can easily run 3 trains at a time, possibly four, but after that I will get distracted and make an operator error - and that is not dependent upon whether I shelled out for DCC or spent my time wiring my DC system.

 

So go what you are comfortable with unless you see real benefits in switching.

 

Tony

Hi Tony,

I think Clive had missed the point that this is a new Build!!

Cheers

Paul

[Pete the Elaner]

1 minute ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Tony,

I think Clive had missed the point that this is a new Build!!

Cheers

Paul

I thought that too.

I spoke to Clive at ModelRail Scotland on Saturday & mentioned this. He feels that if you are happy with working as you are, why force a change on yourself?

[Tallpaul69]

36 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

If you want sound then, for the moment, DCC is the most practical option. (There are products coming to market that can work on DC now, but certainly not the cheap TTS chips yet (?), but I believe these are pretty basic, and let's ignore on board battery powered systems for the sake of simplicity).

 

The issue between the TTS and more sophisticated and thus more expensive sound decoders is in the ear of the beholder, and some of that can be helped with better speakers. There are nearly as many functions available on TTS chips now as on the more expensive types, but in terms of driving, you have to do all the work with making each sound. With modern sound chips, they are now routinely driveable, so that the sounds will change (for example to change from puffing to coasting) just by a small movement of the speed controller, whereas on TTS you have to find the Function number to make that change and select it. This equates to the state of most sound chips many years ago, and the few I have from that era are a real faff to use compared to their modern brethren. The sound quality of TTS has improved however, especially for diesels, but to many ears, they still do not sound as good as the latest offerings elsewhere.

 

So, you and your wallet need to decide what you want from your sound! There is nothing to stop you installing TTS on a few locos and slowly building up the number of more sophisticated chips as money allows (if you find TTS is not good enough for what you want). I have not sound equipped all my units and diesels yet, as I simply cannot afford to, but I will over time.

 

I see you are in Bedfordshire - if you are not too far from Peterborough, Trains4U have a demo layout in their shop, where I am sure they would be happy to demonstrate the differences.

 

Thanks Mike,

Unfortunately I am in south west Bedfordshire without a car, so Peterborough is two buses to get to Hitchin then a ride up the East Coast line, all of which takes a good while!

Might put together a short end to end line somewhere to try a few options out, just got to consider cheapest way to do this without buying too much stuff I cant use on the main layout when it is built!

Regards

Paul 

[Tony Teague]

14 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Tony,

I think Clive had missed the point that this is a new Build!!

Cheers

Paul

 

4 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I thought that too.

I spoke to Clive at ModelRail Scotland on Saturday & mentioned this. He feels that if you are happy with working as you are, why force a change on yourself?

 

Hi Paul

I get that but as Pete the Elaner then points out, familiarity is a consideration. Why change if you are comfortable?

To which I would say, only if there are valued benefits to be had.

Tony

[Pete the Elaner]

8 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Unfortunately I am in south west Bedfordshire without a car, so Peterborough is two buses to get to Hitchin then a ride up the East Coast line, all of which takes a good while!

Might put together a short end to end line somewhere to try a few options out, just got to consider cheapest way to do this without buying too much stuff I cant use on the main layout when it is built!

Regards

Paul 

Trains4U is nowhere near Peterborough station either. You would have at least 1 bus ride away at that end.

I have found Anthony at AGR models in Leighton Buzzard helpful. I guess you have already been in to see him?

 

I started off with a small end to end to evaluate DCC. It was about a yard long.

[shiny]

Hi Paul,

 

Good to see that you're not deterred!

 

There's been a lot of debate about this and a lot of useful suggestions, but at the end of the day - you have to balance what you want with what you can afford - as well as what you can achieve within your abilities.

 

Perhaps DC is the best way forward for you to run the trains, the majority of it should run on code 100. Take what won't run to a model railway shop and see if they can fettle it for you.

 

For your mimic, why not use it to run a separate DCC accessory bus for your points signals and isolating switches? You can still keep your track purely DC until you are ready to make the change. Most DCC fitted locos will run quite happily on DC so you can spread conversion costs out over several years.

 

Keep DC for your track, but split the track wiring into 3 or 4 separate operating areas - along the lines of goods sidings, loop 1, loop 2 and fiddle yard with a separate controller for each. Use DCC accessory controllers to control relays that isolate your sidings so that you can switch them from your mimic. It limits potential, but you won't be throwing excessive amounts of money at it. There will be plenty of guidance on offer if you go down this route.

 

Go with what you're comfortable with. Good luck.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by shiny
speeling

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

It's quite easy to convert a 3 wire accessory decoder output to a 2 wire reversing 12v.

I use two x 180 ohm resistors on my ESU Switchpilots to power Tortoise motors. Resistors are connected from left output to common and right output to common. Motor is connected across L and R.

 

The other method is to use 2 diodes as per this LS150 diagram.

 

 

 

That isn't the same thing and it doesn't work.

The LS150 is not a +12v DC device it's an AC device with alternately switched outputs (although marked + & -)

Using the diodes you can rectify alternate half cycles for each direction.

Been there, done that.

Try with the DR4018 and you will short the output.

 

That's why i have some unused LS150s and a DR4018 and have so far only used Switch -Its or Switch -8s

Edited February 26, 2019 by melmerby

[Phil S]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

That isn't the same thing and it doesn't work.

The LS150 is not a +12v DC device it's an AC device with alternately switched outputs (although marked + & -)

Using the diodes you can rectify alternate half cycles for each direction.

Been there, done that.

Try with the DR4018 and you will short the output.

 

That's why i have some unused LS150s and a DR4018 and have so far only used Switch -Its or Switch -8s

Phil: The method with the 2 diodes works for LGB (2 wire, non commutating 1/2 turn  motor) - as the output from either 'L' or 'R' outputs on the LS150 is AC (and for upto 10 seconds maximum duration settable).   Each diode half wave rectifies the ac  - so providing the 2 diodes are set facing opposite ways - AS SHOWN - in the diagram, a connected 'dc' motor will go in either direction, as requested, and be driven for anything from 0.1s to 10s as set by push-button programming on an individual output basis.   1N4xxx series diodes would be appropriate with an appropriate current rating. [less than 1 A in my case]

Whether it works when trying to electrocute poor defenceless tortoises, I wouldn't know - they are too bulky for any of may layouts (and so the 2 I bought decades ago remain unused)

[melmerby]

16 minutes ago, Phil S said:

 

Whether it works when trying to electrocute poor defenceless tortoises, I wouldn't know - they are too bulky for any of may layouts (and so the 2 I bought decades ago remain unused)

Using the diodes as in that diagram (lifted from Lenz!) works fine for the tortoise.

The main bug is that only one output on an LS150 can be operated at a time and you have to wait for it to finish before the next one operates.

You need between 3 & 4 seconds to move a tortoise from end to end.

If you have 5 points in a ladder that can be up to 20 secs for all of them to throw.

(I've got 7 in a row on one part of my layout)

 

Using something like a Switch-8 all outputs can be operated in quick succession and as a soon as the command has been sent the next output can operate. Result: almost simultaneous movement of lots of points.

This would also apply when using individual digital Cobalts.

 

You cannot get away with just diodes and/or resistors when using a 12v DC device like the DR4018 without losing considerable output voltage

Using a 2 resistor, 2 diode, 2 transistor arrangement a sort of flip-flop can be created with full 12 volts applied either way round to the tortoise.

Edited February 26, 2019 by melmerby