To DCC or not?

[Junctionmad]

9 hours ago, Chris M said:

Why does it have to be seen a challenger? There are many ways of controlling trains and we are all entitled to use what works for us without being told we we are not using the correct method or that our layout is no more than "a circle of track on the carpet". Our choice should be respected by others. I choose dc because it suits my needs best. I came to this conclusion after investigation and carrying out a business analysis of what I needed and what each method of control provides. The person who helps run my layouts at exhibitions and has two dcc layouts at home has said that he thinks dc is the best for my layouts; from his use of dcc he believes that my layouts would be harder to operate at exhibitions if they were dcc. I think dcc is best for what he wants at home and so we are both happy that we have made different but correct choices. 

I  converted one 00 loco to BPRC just out of interest and am very pleased with it. I might convert another loco sometime in the future or I might not as I don't really run 00 gauge. It certainly is viable in certain circumstances and has advantages that could be important to some people. There could be an interesting future though. We know the automotive industry is investing billions in improving battery technology and word is that they are nearly there. Somewhere around 2021/3 we should have a reasonably priced electric car which can run 400 miles and then fully recharge in about ten minutes. Some years after this you can be sure the technology will have worked its way into all batteries which may or may not make BPRC more mainstream. It sounds like the OP should go for dcc primarily because his layout builder is most familiar with dcc and may struggle with anything else but he should be aware that there are other choices which may suit his needs.

I use the term challenge in the technical sense of offering significant advantages over DCC such that users would displace DCC , at the end of the day , theres no need to market similar featured systems unless they appeal to a wide variety off users. Hence the term " challenge "

 

Quote

I choose dc because it suits my needs best.

I have no issue with that , my issue is with people that then try and convince me DC is as good as DCC in general , ie they extrapolate there own decision to  the general case

 

Quote

It certainly is viable in certain circumstances and has advantages that could be important to some people. There could be an interesting future though. We know the automotive industry is investing billions in improving battery technology and word is that they are nearly there. Somewhere around 2021/3 we should have a reasonably priced electric car which can run 400 miles and then fully recharge in about ten minutes.

As an owner of an EV for the last three years and a committee member of a EV advocacy group , I know a lot about this subject 

Firstly 400 miles will be available by the end of 2020.  

BUT , recharging in 10 mins is " a long way away ", the technicalities are a bit beyond this discussion , but you need to separate the marketing hype  from the technical reality . Handling the heat buildup in the car to do 10mins charges in say 100kWh batteries is a huge challenge ( and currently a huge cost ) as scotty always says " ye canna beat the laws of physics " , a dictate that tends not to be taught in marketing degrees , never mind the network supply issues of the power requirements of 200-300 even 500 kw high voltages chargers 

 

( as to how you charge a 100Kwh battery from a 16A or 30A single phase domestic electrical supply in any sort of usable time, well theres another marketing debacle coming ) 

 

Quote

Some years after this you can be sure the technology will have worked its way into all batteries which may or may not make BPRC more mainstream.

 

indeed , we shall see, but the physics of Watt hour density is a hard one to beat ! and the issue of recharging high capacity batteries is even harder to beat.

 

In the meantime DCC does all its required to , should BPRC improve and offer compelling advantages  for the  mainstream cab control user, Ill be cheering in the wings 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by Junctionmad

[wasdavetheroad]

5 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

 

I would assume you are using servos to control points , Ive I had tuppence for every badly fitted servo install with poor wiring , too ling a servo lead and no understanding or care in relation to ground loops, servo power and load dumping Id be a rich man 

 

servos were never designed for the way the average user tries to use them in a model railway , they work very well, but you have to understand how they consume current, and how the high impedance drive input is very susceptible to interference 

 

Once you appreciate the technical issues , the problems go away 

 

The issue is that people see servos as cheap point  motors without any understanding of the technical issues involved when they are used in a model railway . The merg forum is full of advice and shows how NOT to use them , sadly many dont understand or only learn after they have made the mistakes 

 

 

That's useful to know, I am just starting an on vehicle uncoupling project and hope to use servos

[Vecchio]

33 minutes ago, wasdavetheroad said:

That's useful to know, I am just starting an on vehicle uncoupling project and hope to use servos

On continental railways you find several companies offering DCC uncoupling, they are all done by means of a small electro magnet direct in the coupling. Roco was offering some shunters with this feature, but there are also companies like Krois offering electromagnetic couplings which fit into a NEM pocket.

Of course this is not tension lock, but I am sure it would be possible to make something similar for tension lock couplings.

Servo in the loco: Zimo allows this feature since a long time in some of their decoders, I have a loco which does both, electromagnetic couplings and moving the pantograph via servo. I have a small video about that which I can link later, and this is what DCC is for me. Functions which were not possible with DC.

Vecchio 

[wasdavetheroad]

13 minutes ago, Vecchio said:

On continental railways you find several companies offering DCC uncoupling, they are all done by means of a small electro magnet direct in the coupling. Roco was offering some shunters with this feature, but there are also companies like Krois offering electromagnetic couplings which fit into a NEM pocket.

Of course this is not tension lock, but I am sure it would be possible to make something similar for tension lock couplings.

Servo in the loco: Zimo allows this feature since a long time in some of their decoders, I have a loco which does both, electromagnetic couplings and moving the pantograph via servo. I have a small video about that which I can link later, and this is what DCC is for me. Functions which were not possible with DC.

Vecchio 

Thanks for the info. Electro magnets might be in the project as well as you can buy really tiny ones. I will take a look at the continental ones

[Dungrange]

On 20/02/2019 at 14:07, Tallpaul69 said:

I have only ever used DC control.

For a new layout I am being told that the cost of chipping 200 locos, that I have to run 5 different eras on a model (say 50/50 steam /diesel and of those 50/50 are with/without sockets)  is less than the cost of a control panel with mimic track diagrams for a 12ft x8ft 3 track round and round layout with 60+ points, 30 isolated sections, and 15 signals.

 

Any advice welcome, also any thoughts on types of equipment, and traps for the unwary?

 

Many  Thanks

Paul

 

Whilst there has been a lot of interesting discussion and differing viewpoints, we seem to have moved away from the initial question, which I'm not sure has been fully answered in the numerous posts in this thread.

 

Cost is clearly a barrier to entry to DCC for many people and I don't think that many would disagree that for someone building themselves a small layout and who has quite a few locomotives to run (but not all on the layout at the same time), DCC is probably the more expensive option.  DC controllers are generally less expensive than their DCC counterparts and you don't need to worry about the cost of chipping locomotives.  Even using the cheapest budget decoders, 200 locomotives at £10 per decoder would cost £2,000.  Use quality decoders around the £20 price mark and that cost would double.  That would therefore be £4,000 if you were fitting these yourself, but if you are not doing the installation work, then someone else will happily do that for you, but if we assume £20 per locomotive, that would be another £4,000 to have DCC chips installed for you, so £8,000 if you want to use basic good quality decoders.  That is a lot of money, especially when you would also have to purchase a DCC controller, which you don't have.

 

However, leaving aside the cost of the controller and the cost of chipping locomotives, I would argue that the cost of building a DCC layout should be less than the cost of building a DC one, particularly if that layout is being built by a professional layout builder, where labour will be a significant part of the total cost.  A DCC layout should only need a limited number of wires between baseboards (track bus, accessory bus and any feedback bus - ie LocoNet, ExpressNet or whatever your DCC system supports).  A DC layout will most likely have considerably more wiring for the isolating sections and point control, so not only will the cost of wire be higher for DC layout, but so will the time taken to wire the layout and when 'time is money' this will start to add up.

 

Eventually there will reach a point where the complexity of wiring a DC layout and therefore its cost (especially when you start looking at automation and mimic panels) will out weight the costs of fitting decoders to locomotives.  Whether that is the case with what you are trying to achieve, I can't really say.  The layout builders who you you have contacted may charge, say £3,000, more for a DC layout  which would make DCC the cheaper option overall if you were fitting budget chips yourself whilst waiting for the layout to be built, but would be the more expensive option if you would need to pay someone else to fit them.

 

Ultimately, I think the only way forward would be to fully cost everything that you would need and whether that is affordable.  It may be that you can't afford either DC or DCC when you price in the significant cost of labour. 

[Izzy]

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

Whilst there has been a lot of interesting discussion and differing viewpoints, we seem to have moved away from the initial question, which I'm not sure has been fully answered in the numerous posts in this thread.

 

Cost is clearly a barrier to entry to DCC for many people and I don't think that many would disagree that for someone building themselves a small layout and who has quite a few locomotives to run (but not all on the layout at the same time), DCC is probably the more expensive option.  DC controllers are generally less expensive than their DCC counterparts and you don't need to worry about the cost of chipping locomotives.  Even using the cheapest budget decoders, 200 locomotives at £10 per decoder would cost £2,000.  Use quality decoders around the £20 price mark and that cost would double.  That would therefore be £4,000 if you were fitting these yourself, but if you are not doing the installation work, then someone else will happily do that for you, but if we assume £20 per locomotive, that would be another £4,000 to have DCC chips installed for you, so £8,000 if you want to use basic good quality decoders.  That is a lot of money, especially when you would also have to purchase a DCC controller, which you don't have.

 

However, leaving aside the cost of the controller and the cost of chipping locomotives, I would argue that the cost of building a DCC layout should be less than the cost of building a DC one, particularly if that layout is being built by a professional layout builder, where labour will be a significant part of the total cost.  A DCC layout should only need a limited number of wires between baseboards (track bus, accessory bus and any feedback bus - ie LocoNet, ExpressNet or whatever your DCC system supports).  A DC layout will most likely have considerably more wiring for the isolating sections and point control, so not only will the cost of wire be higher for DC layout, but so will the time taken to wire the layout and when 'time is money' this will start to add up.

 

Eventually there will reach a point where the complexity of wiring a DC layout and therefore its cost (especially when you start looking at automation and mimic panels) will out weight the costs of fitting decoders to locomotives.  Whether that is the case with what you are trying to achieve, I can't really say.  The layout builders who you you have contacted may charge, say £3,000, more for a DC layout  which would make DCC the cheaper option overall if you were fitting budget chips yourself whilst waiting for the layout to be built, but would be the more expensive option if you would need to pay someone else to fit them.

 

Ultimately, I think the only way forward would be to fully cost everything that you would need and whether that is affordable.  It may be that you can't afford either DC or DCC when you price in the significant cost of labour. 

 

I would agree with all you have said, but it seems that an important aspect in cost terms is still being missed/ignored. That of the cost of accessory decoders. Easily costing as much as loco decoders they might saved a professional builder some time against DC wiring, but if a mimic panel is still required then I think it would end up being considerably more than for DC. For this cost analysis I am only considering the working of the points/signals since that will be needed whether DC or DCC is involved. In this you can mostly ignore the cost of the units actually doing the movement and just consider that, in the main, the accessory decoders will be an additional cost. Okay, maybe it would be possible to find DCC units at the same cost as non-DCC ones, maybe not. But it needs to be taken into account.

 

As someone that uses DCC I would say that I don't regret using it over DC at all, with several advantages I like, but have to admit that this has come at quite considerable cost compared to that had I stuck with DC.

 

Izzy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Phil S]

Although the TOTAL bill may be 'high' - that part covering the locomotive conversion could easily be staged progressively over months or years, following the successful completion of the professional layout build handover, and with enough locomotives ( an example period perhaps ) during which the owner will 'debug' or fine tune the systems and confirm all is as they wish.   

Then in the light of experience, further batches of locomotives could be converted, either by the owner or multiple others as time demands.

It is also useful to realise that new models, of both decoders, and the same locos, may be released over the development period, making the 'conversion' easier to achieve!  eg - Hornby's  latest Coronation/Princess locos. Their Brighton Belle compared to the Wrenn version etc

 

The pure financial accountancy cost of a railway does not, of course directly reflect on the desirability of one path or another - unless perhaps it is a commercial proposal for public display (such as Wimula, Hamburg, Berlin, Rotterdam and many more growing across Europe - including Ashford etc, with 2 we visited in Sweden recently being large H0 scale models of their local regions.  [DCC  / Mfx and automation in all cases]

 

Maintainability of the system is also a consideration - and it might have to be accepted that, external help is needed, but -  the 'modular simplicity' of a 'DCC and modules' system makes for easier fault-finding, replacement or upgrading than a 'fully-hard-wired' back to a control panel' bespoke system often associated with analogue control' .  DCC control is now nearer to 'plug and play' than 'analogue hard wiring.  

 

[ BUT there is nothing to stop an analogue layout having the common sense to use DCC or an alternative bus (CAN or AT-bus from MERG, for example)  to operate all the points, signals and 'operating effects' ... and even to remotely switch power to cab-control track sections. - BECAUSE I had separated track and accessory-bus wiring on my original Zero-1 Layout (130 points/accessories and 100+ locos at time of 'conversion' to DCC - I was able to convert locos over to dcc, and leave the accessories on Zero-1 until  I completely rebuilt the layout after a house extension. 

[Of course, some make the comparison unfairly here between a hand-operated pointwork layout and full remote control or even full automation - which cannot be compared either by price or result]

 

Apart from the ease of adding operating lineside effects (lighting, motion etc) and controlling them via the same system, the range of options is wider with digitisation ( dcc or Mfx ... other systems are available 8-) )   Mfx automatically identifies any (Mfx) loco placed on the track ... Railcom/Railcom+ is part of DCC's response to include such 2-way communicaton - Some accessory modules/motors include Railcom Feedback within them (eg Viessmann ).  Otherwise separate busses are available and not a problem either [ I prefer them to be separate as it allows one to work without the other ]   Coaches can have opening doors ( Roco), Pantograph raising and lowering (LGB, Roco, Marklin, Trix...),

remote uncoupling anywhere - although Kadees do not require dcc for this, and the added controllability of old featres like smoke and drectional lighting ... how does anccountancy cost compare these for a non-commerically owned/operated  model railway ??

 

Trains may be constrained by rails - but the imagination need not be ... and trains are a part of the layout.  A difficulty faced by the prospective purchaser of a commercially built layout MIGHT be to have to decide ALL or as much as possible before ANYTHING is built:  A club layout might feel the same restrictions, but a layout is like life - developments happen - and there is opportunity to include what one wants -

On our portable H0 layout, we have not only railways (H0,H0m,H0e and H0f) we have pedalling cyclists (Magnorail [R] ) , falling trees (as part of the forestry industry) , a Galloper (fairground ride) and animated signs  [ not yet the Train Tech versions just released ].  We will be adding moving boats and skiers, and a Faller Car (using OpenDCC car system control - and we have the flexibility to control ALL of this from 1 or more Roco Multimaus Handsets ( cabled or wireless ),  or a tablet/phone, or a touch screen [ for the touch screen, we will also be incuding train detection feedback and display which had been on the previous version of this layout, but not yet included on this Mark 2  ... a progressive development.

 

Erroneous factors have been mentioned in earlier posts - such as with Servos = the power problems if they are powered from the DCC bus (as for example with the Bachmann/ESU ServoPilot or at start-up,- or heavy current solenoids (Peco)  if powered via the track without a CDU ... or even the powering of the locos by battery or not ... stay-alives  being an example of problem avoidance here  ... POWER and CONTROL do not have to be from the same source - although there may be a convenience in them being common (eg reduced wiring ) - there can be disadvantages too.  But they are solvable - and do not need to affect the analogue / dcc / Mfx etc decision as to CONTROL METHOD   Economical, Effective use of POWER in the solutins we choose should always be adopted where appropriate  ( eg SMPS power supplies ) - but this is outside the dcc/dc debate.

[Dungrange]

I agree that I omitted to mention the cost of accessory decoders, but they don't need to be as expensive as a locomotive decoder.

 

The Cobalt ip Analogue had an RRP of £19.96, whereas the Cobalt ip Digital, which is effectively the same motor, but with a built-in accessory decoder, has an RRP of £24.95.  That means that the cost of the accessory decoder is just £4.99.  That is at RRP.  Once you look at retailers who sell these point motors and decoders at a discount and take advantage of the reduced costs of buying in bulk and the difference is probably down to just £4 per decoder.  Whilst I agree that it is important to budget for these costs, they are relatively small compared to the costs of labour.

[Ron Ron Ron]

33 minutes ago, Phil S said:

.....there is nothing to stop an analogue layout having the common sense to use DCC or an alternative bus (CAN or AT-bus from MERG, for example)  to operate all the points, signals and 'operating effects' ...

 

A good point, often unknown, missed or ignored.

 

A new layout using analogue (DC) control of trains, can still benefit from using the relative simplicity of wiring, flexibility and utility of DCC for points, routes and signal control.

These being controlled from a traditional (hardware) mimic control panel, or a lever frame assembly, wired for DCC with just a single 2 wire cable connecting to the layout's accessory bus.

There's a fair bit of off-the shelf kit available, to do this.

 

 

.

[Clive Mortimore]

On 23/02/2019 at 11:01, Junctionmad said:

Come round to mine , which uses frog juicers and you can run over wrongly set points all day every day without shorts 

 

stop reaching for nonsense points to justify your position , this is my problem with DC arguments , DC is a control system from the interwar years , DCC is a control system from the digital era , it’s far from perfect 

but this arguments is like adherents trying to argue black and white TV is better 

 

DCC allows you to simply do ,ie prototype freedom of movement , that’s awkward , costly and difficult to completely emulate in DC 

 

there is no counter argument , you can argue black and white tv is fine for you , I accept that , but stop ( not you ) telling me DC can do everything DCC can do or the argument that “ the things it does do, sniff sniff , I don’t like “ 

 

simple DC layouts are just that , simple cheap and understandable at a basic level. That suits “ some “ people ( though less and less ) 

 

DCC adds functions and features that greatly enhance realism and simplify wiring complexity , that’s not a discussion that can be argued , I’m sorry ( because to do it properly in DC is very complex ) 

 

as I said it’s not about DC versus DCC , it’s people arguing that black And white tv is “ as good as color “ type of arguments that annoy me. 

Wot utter tosh......turn it around DCC layouts are better because they are expensive.

 

No,  good layouts are ones that people enjoy building and are fun to operate.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[Butler Henderson]

On ‎24‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 17:42, Crosland said:

 

Not really, you just use different motors.

Which obviously adds to the complication - I was referring to my own experience in making a Heljan Bo-Bo chassis radio controlled for track cleaning purposes through an inaccessible tunnel. The supplier of the rc components recommended the voltage booster not a replacement motor. As neatness was not necessary I did not completely disassemble the chassis which would have been needed if the rc components were to be fitted and the body shell refitted. And would a low voltage motor provide enough power to propel a CMX track cleaning wagon?

Edited February 25, 2019 by Butler Henderson

[Clive Mortimore]

On 23/02/2019 at 12:26, Crosland said:

 

Try running the banker up to the rear of a train without the loco at the front moving on DC.

 

1 Try forming a "double head"  by reversing the loco on to the front of the train on DC.

 

2 Both are impossible unless you have very precisely placed track breaks.

 

With DCC, both are a doddle, anywhere, anytime.

 

1, Catting to my mate at this weekends Glasgow show , he said someone had pressed the consit button and the handheld wizardry was now useless but he did say he would give a DCC train shop a call to unlock it. 

 

2, so? See Pig Lane or Hanging Hill, not hard to do.

 

 

[melmerby]

DC versus DCC slanging match started.

Book your front row seats now

[shiny]

DC or DCC? I still don't know which is the best one - nobody will agree on it.

Instead of waiting for everyone to decide, I've laid all of my track going downhill instead.

Far cheaper.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

17 minutes ago, shiny said:

DC or DCC? I still don't know which is the best one - nobody will agree on it.

Instead of waiting for everyone to decide, I've laid all of my track going downhill instead.

Far cheaper.

 

 

Setting aside the humorous part of that (which I like), there is no argument about "which is the best one".

That's clearly settled.

 

The only valid DC v DCC debate or discussion, is about suitability, practicality or personal preference, particularly when it involves things like a pre-existing (DC) layout, large numbers of locos that would need converting, cost considerations or relatively simple requirements, such as a small, simple layout with only a couple of locos in action.

 

 

.

[Andymsa]

8 hours ago, Dungrange said:

I agree that I omitted to mention the cost of accessory decoders, but they don't need to be as expensive as a locomotive decoder.

 

The Cobalt ip Analogue had an RRP of £19.96, whereas the Cobalt ip Digital, which is effectively the same motor, but with a built-in accessory decoder, has an RRP of £24.95.  That means that the cost of the accessory decoder is just £4.99.  That is at RRP.  Once you look at retailers who sell these point motors and decoders at a discount and take advantage of the reduced costs of buying in bulk and the difference is probably down to just £4 per decoder.  Whilst I agree that it is important to budget for these costs, they are relatively small compared to the costs of labour.

 

Another option is a 12 pack of tortoise which works out to £15 per motor and your accessory decoder is a dac 20 at £65.00 per board. This works out to the same as the digital cobalt.

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

1, Catting to my mate at this weekends Glasgow show , he said someone had pressed the consit button and the handheld wizardry was now useless but he did say he would give a DCC train shop a call to unlock it. 

 

 

 

 

 

Make sure Dave reads the instructions next time.......

[newbryford]

On 23/02/2019 at 10:46, Neil said:

 

I'm similarly amused when locos are driven into wrongly set trailing points on DCC layouts and everything shuts down.

 

 

 

 I seem to recall that when I drove a loco through a wrongly set of points on my DC controlled layout, the system shut down..... 

 

It's just that it's more obvious with sound/light fitted locos.

 

DCC isn't for everybody and in the same vein, DC isn't either.

Me - I prefer to drive the trains, not the track.

 

The largest arguments against DCC about cost tend to be the cost of chipping an extensive collection. That I get. Totally.

I was lucky in that a new project requiring new stock meant that I could easily spread the cost of decoders as the collection grew.

 

As for the OP - ask yourself how many locos will you be running on your new layout? 

Do you have favourites that will be run ahead of others? Fit them with decoders first. fit others as time and money allows.

Although I bet the cost of fitting them is less than a professionally built layout that is capable of accommodating the OP collection of 200 locos.

 

In the whole scheme of things - the "typical" cost of fitting decoders to the OP's fleet is £3000-4000 - how many locos is that at today's prices? 20-25 or so? So that's 10% of the existing fleet.  

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

 

 

[Chris M]

6 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

relatively simple requirements, such as a small, simple layout with only a couple of locos in action.

 

 

.

I  mostly agree with Ron especially about personal preference. Although my dc layout is small I tend to have more than a couple of locos in action even though I only have two controllers. The wiring around the back allows point route setting through the junction with the push of one button using good old fashioned diodes.

 

[Tony Teague]

On 20/02/2019 at 17:07, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Paul

 

Does you layout work?

 

Do you enjoy operating it?

 

Why change?

 

Save your money or buy more locos and stock.

 

 

Hi Paul

 

Going right back to the beginning of this thread, I'd say that Clive's questions are what it is all about.

 

Whilst people have listed the many features that DCC offers, they are only benefits if you personally want them - sound is a good example - I hate it, find it distracting and rarely realistic - but that is my personal point of view and others may love it.

 

DC wiring can be complex - especially on a complex layout, but I have yet to see a complex DCC layout that has just 2 wires, and it will also need a lot of programming.

 

My personal view is that unless you want a fully automated layout that you can switch on, shut the door, and leave to run itself, in all other cases the limit as to how many trains you can run, with how many functions operating and how many accessories being switched, lies in the brain of the operator, not the control system they are using.

 

I can easily run 3 trains at a time, possibly four, but after that I will get distracted and make an operator error - and that is not dependent upon whether I shelled out for DCC or spent my time wiring my DC system.

 

So go what you are comfortable with unless you see real benefits in switching.

 

Tony

[Clive Mortimore]

6 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Make sure Dave reads the instructions next time.......

Hi Mick

 

It weren't Dave.....I do have another friend.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Mick

 

It weren't Dave.....I do have another friend.

 They both use DCC? Interesting....

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 

Another option is a 12 pack of tortoise which works out to £15 per motor and your accessory decoder is a dac 20 at £65.00 per board. This works out to the same as the digital cobalt.

Or the Switch 8 which is about £10 cheaper:

https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/nce/switch8-mk2

[WIMorrison]

4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Or the Switch 8 which is about £10 cheaper:

https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/nce/switch8-mk2

 

wow - mega expensive

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digikeijs-DR4018/dp/B00BV72H3Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1551172312&sr=8-1&keywords=dr4018

 

[melmerby]

7 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

wow - mega expensive

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digikeijs-DR4018/dp/B00BV72H3Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1551172312&sr=8-1&keywords=dr4018

 

But they wont control Tortoises or analogue Cobalts without these adaptors:

https://www.digikeijs.com/en/dr4101-switch-motor-interface.html

That's another £30

Edited February 26, 2019 by melmerby