James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain. - Hornby's decline and struggle to survive.

[south_tyne]

2 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

As Winston Churchill (almost) said:  "History will be kind to me ... for I intend to write it."

 

 

Yes... but we should be able to judge history in an objective manner. Life is not simply a case of black or white - let's face it, Mr Churchill had many flaws and did some terrible things alongside his great achievements. 

 

Anyhow, I really hope this programme is positive for Hornby. This pastime and all those with a vested interest in it - from employees, retailers, customers, model railway clubs to every individual modeller - needs the company to be strong to ensure the future of the hobby. The last few years have been difficult, but it's not all doom and gloom and hopefully things are on the up (as above it's not just either black or white). I'm looking forward to watching the programme next week - James May normally does an excellent job and makes the subject matter accessible and interesting without ever belittling or trivialising it. 

[Vistisen]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

snip

 

The main warehouse at Margate has been modified and fitted out for the storage of locomotives and rolling stock.

 

.

Is that where the old Hornby APT-P moulds that were  deemed by H&S to be 'too heavy' to ever be moved (or used again) were kept? I seem to remember a SK blog post to that effect. If they have moved them I could imagine a Railroad APT-P, that might upset some of the DJM ciult.

[rockershovel]

So... just to clarify this..... Hornby sold their previous Margate building, which is now owned and operated by the (otherwise unrelated) Locomotive Storage Ltd. Hornby now hold a lease on some office space within that site. 

 

The site alse may, or may not contain some historic tooling abandoned there by Hornby, in an unknown condition and possibly/probably,  obsolete and/or unusable. This doesn’t form any known part of Hornby’s plans. 

 

Hornby presently have a warehousing operation which may, or may not be returning to Margate, depending on which account you are reading. 

 

No Hornby production is, or is planned to, return to Margate.

 

Is that correct? 

 

 

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

Hornby presently have a warehousing operation which may, or may not be returning to Margate, depending on which account you are reading

 

It is not, that has already been clarified.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It is not, that has already been clarified.

 

“Between” is the site at Canterbury? 

 

I did google that, and drew a blank. 

 

One thing I did find, was a carefully worded piece  which appears to refer to that move?   It gives the impression that the actual warehousing was outsourced http://www.rekuk.com/Hornby-moves-new-warehouse-near-canterbury/

[Fat Controller]

6 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

“Between” is the site at Canterbury? 

 

I did google that, and drew a blank. 

 

One thing I did find, was a carefully worded piece  which appears to refer to that move?   It gives the impression that the actual warehousing was outsourced http://www.rekuk.com/Hornby-moves-new-warehouse-near-canterbury/

Both warehousing and distribution were outsourced; having seen the manouevres involved in getting a container lorry into a position whence it could be unloaded, I can see why they moved. The old site was also becoming less and less accessible, due to traffic jams at the adjacent shopping-complex.

[Captain Kernow]

I like James May.

 

I like Hornby.

 

I'm just looking forward to watching the programme.

 

[rockershovel]

4 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Both warehousing and distribution were outsourced; having seen the manouevres involved in getting a container lorry into a position whence it could be unloaded, I can see why they moved. The old site was also becoming less and less accessible, due to traffic jams at the adjacent shopping-complex.

 

Old industrial sites become obsolete as technology changes, no news there. Pressure on the interface between drivers hours, distance from ferry or Channel Tunnel and JIT delivery systems mean that you HAVE to turn wagons round quickly, it isn’t really an option.

 

I’d be curious to know how the transfer actually played out, how many of the former workforce actually made the transfer

 

 

[Mike Storey]

But Kent Live said this (my emphasis in bold):

 

"Operations were moved to Hersden near Canterbury, while the company's head office moved to Discovery Park in Sandwich.

In 2017, the historic site was sold to Locomotive Storage Ltd for £2.25 million, but Hornby kept a presence at the site and leased back the visitor centre and shop. It was hoped a new visitor centre could be built on Ramsgate seafront, but this fell through.

But now hopes in the brand have been renewed as all operations are set to return to Margate by April, and there will be 125 staff operating from the site."

 

All of which suggests something different.

 

[Revolution Mike B]

Very interesting reading through the posts on this thread.

 

'Hornby = Trainset' both accurate and inaccurate at the same time (and I'm not being rude to the original poster either). My first proper trainset was Hornby, and I always remember looking through the Hornby catalogues as a kid and now thinking back, it was very 'toy' like. However, recently, Hornby have been turning out some serious models (some with glaring errors) but as they say 'you need to be in it to win it' and of late, they've certainly been winning it. My personal opinion is that other manufacturers make many glaring mistakes too, their media teams just seem to be better at hiding them or just blatantly ignoring them. There's also a genuine willingness by Hornby to listen to feedback, both good and bad which allows them to cater for a wider market - Trainset to Serious Modeller and with anyluck, that will be their success story.

 

From my recent dealings with Mr Kohler and his team, they certainly have the bit well and truly between their teeth - they have a genuine concern for making people feel good about their purchases and have identified key areas of major concern.

 

Long live the Red Box! 

[woodenhead]

So what we do here is securely store your loco, first we put it into the warehouse then we scan it using a laser.  The item is then shrunk to 4mm to the foot (or thereabouts, it looks a little narrow but only a purist will notice) and stored securely in a plastic cradle within a red box.  We store thousands of items of rolling stock this way and we even have other secure locations around the country - Hattons, Rails and a few high street locations too where you can just pop in and for a fee get your item back.

 

Make them big again?  We have a place up north in Darlington that builds it again piece by piece

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

I like James May.

 

I like Hornby.

 

I'm just looking forward to watching the programme.

 

Nice try for getting the thread back on topic.

It seems to have immediately drifted back to irrelevant drivel again though.

[Captain Kernow]

9 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Nice try for getting the thread back on topic.

It seems to have immediately drifted back to irrelevant drivel again though.

I just don't care about the politics or economics of the situation, where Hornby is based or who's doing what in the company.

 

I wish them well and hope that they will continue to produce high quality models like the cute little Peckett.

 

I might eventually have a few Hornby boxes that James May can dispose of, as well.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 hours ago, Vistisen said:

Is that where the old Hornby APT-P moulds that were  deemed by H&S to be 'too heavy' to ever be moved (or used again) were kept? I seem to remember a SK blog post to that effect. If they have moved them I could imagine a Railroad APT-P, that might upset some of the DJM ciult.

 

6 hours ago, rockershovel said:

....The site alse may, or may not contain some historic tooling abandoned there by Hornby, in an unknown condition and possibly/probably,  obsolete and/or unusable. This doesn’t form any known part of Hornby’s plans. .....

 

IIRC, Hornby moved most of their useable tooling to China. 

The Margate facility was cleared out of rubbish when Hornby left in 2014/15.

There's a report that the "previous management" disposed of a lot of what has been called "Hornby's heritage".

That may include all the old and unusable tools.

 

I'm sure I've read that the tools for everything made since the move China, remained in China.

Also that some of those items were "lost "following the closure of Sanda Kan. I don't know if that's true or not?

 

 

.

 

 

.

[HonestTom]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

So what we do here is securely store your loco, first we put it into the warehouse then we scan it using a laser.  The item is then shrunk to 4mm to the foot (or thereabouts, it looks a little narrow but only a purist will notice) and stored securely in a plastic cradle within a red box.  We store thousands of items of rolling stock this way and we even have other secure locations around the country - Hattons, Rails and a few high street locations too where you can just pop in and for a fee get your item back.

 

Make them big again?  We have a place up north in Darlington that builds it again piece by piece

 

 

 

 

I lost a full-size Battlespace Turbo Car that way, I'm not doing that again. Once Bittern, twice shy.

[Legend]

I love Hornby, actually it was Tri-ang when I got my first Trainset , so Hornby Dublo purists would probably argue its not Hornby at all!  However I think most people would say todays Hornby owes more to its Tri-ang legacy than Hornby Dublo. Of course its moved on from producing toys to producing scale models for the discerning enthusiast. I suspect that will be all the more obvious if you compare a 2019 announced Princess with the 1951 one, or even my 1971 Princess Elizabeth!   Opening these red boxes was always a thrill .We remember our first trainset , so that's why most of us are very fond of the brand , more than maybe Bachmann , who are relatively recent (30 years!) but there must be few who remember opening their first Bachmann trainset , by comparison. That's why Hornby is iconic and cherished and why this program will have been made, because even if you are not into model railways , people of a certain age will know the name Hornby.

 

I love model trains but I'm also interested in the business that surrounds them . So actually I am interested in the politics and economics too . The reasons for moving production to China I think are well known to most of us . More detail , lower cost (at least to the manufacturer), but was it envisaged that essentially by becoming a commissioner and subcontracting all manufacturing out that actually somebody else could pretty much do the same and you become a "me too" operation?  What about putting all the eggs in the Sanda Kan basket , did someone think there was a risk there? Did they at any time consider setting up their own manufacturing in China? How easy or difficult was it to go out and source alternative producers , what happened to the tooling , did they have to retool existing models to get them back into production?  What was envisaged when they took over Lima , Rivarossi, Arnold, Electronen . More closer to home , how did "Design Clever" emerge , what was the impetus behind that? Is there resistance to constantly increasing prices , was this what resulted in "Design Clever"?Who decided to announce it ? How are Airfix, Scalextric and Corgi performing .  How do they intend reacting to new producers popping up, shop commissions , shops now manufacturing themselves? Really there's lots of fascinating stuff.  Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall at all these meetings?  I'm hoping that to some extent these factors will emerge in this program  .Hornbys troubles didn't just start 5 years ago, they were a long time coming and , of course , the demise of the High Street and rise of the internet just accentuate the difficulties.  

 

I really hope the program looks into these issues . Clearly there is  commercial confidentiality but I hope its more than just a superficial nostalgia trip , even though that in itself will be enjoyable, it could be so much more

 

Didn't Hornby feature in the Money Program sometime back- probably 20 years ago!

 

Incidentally about 15 years back Axiom video produced a series of three films on Hornby Dublo,  Tri-ang Railways and Triang-Hornby . I have the 3 DVD set, but I believe these are now available on YouTube , just in case anyone is interested. They contain interviews with Richard Lines , Simon Kohler, Pat Hammond , Michael Foster . Very enjoyable . Now that is a nostalgia trip although documenting the issues faced then.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Legend
My spellings just getting worse..........

[rockershovel]

I was involved in laying a gas pipeline through the outer wastelands (and I use the term advisedly) of the old Ford plant at Dagenham, back in the early 90s. The sheer quantity of redundant tooling, patterns and general scrap, some dating back to the late 1940s, laying about in the long grass and vegetation, was amazing and posed a considerable problem for our operations.

 

I gather that obsolete tools retain a “book value” considerably above their scrap value, long after they cease to be of the slightest use. I remember an old friend who had a Panther motorcycle, and was involved in the attempted purchase of a stock of factory tooling from the by-then-defunct factory. The receivers wanted a ridiculous sum, especially when you considered the cost of uplift, reconditioning and generally, ever using them again. Eventually much of it was simply broken up with a wrecking ball and sent for scrap, no agreement having been reached. 

 

 

Good luck retrieving anything that is ever sent to China! 

 

[The Johnster]

Hornby in it's current incarnation is a direct descendent of Rovex/Triang.  When Hornby Dublo went under, some of the 2-rail production was rescued by Wrenn, but Binns Road closed and nobody was interested in taking on the already rather crude and obsolete likes of the A4 or Duchess, as out of scale and toy-like as the Rovex Black Princess had been, as the die cast production had become too costly for the market to bear.  Wrenn never made themselves millionaires out of the rather better stuff they were making.

 

Triang in those days was improving steadily and had produced some half decent models in plastic; the 31 was pretty good in it's day and they were the first on the scene with scale length RTR coaches.  They bought the right to use the Hornby name, and promptly rebranded themselves as 'Triang Hornby', and a coupling converter van was produced so that you could mix older Triang and Hornby Dublo 2 rail stock in the same train.  Most of us just hooked the Triang tension lock hook over the HD 'buckeye' and crossed our fingers...  Triang Hornby eventually dropped the 'Triang' part and the rest is history.

 

So, current Hornby is genetically Rovex/Triang and owes absolutely nothing to Hornby Dublo beyond a bought name and the marketing advantage that came with it.  Whether you regard this as in any way mendacious is up to you.

 

Interesting to play 'what if' and pretend HD never went under.  They would almost certainly have had to abandon 3 rail and short coaches with tinplate printed sides, and had already moved to plastic injection moulding for goods vehicle bodies and some locomotives; they'd have had to go head to head with Triang. who in turn would have had to up their game in terms of scale appearance, particularly with valve gear, and finish.  It was still normal to build locos with flangeless centre drivers in those days so as to be able to use 13 inch radius curves, but HD were producing to BRSMB standards with finer rail and flange sections; Triang may have had to introduce new standards and a new range of track better than 'Super 4'.  The Ringfield motor might have been a common feature of both ranges, and I suspect the firms would have eventually merged track production (no Peco Setrack then) and possibly merged altogether in response to the eventual entry of Lima, Airfix, and Mainline to the scene.  So Triang Hornby would probably made an appearance anyway sooner or later, but with much more HD input.

[Legend]

29 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Hornby in it's current incarnation is a direct descendent of Rovex/Triang.  When Hornby Dublo went under, some of the 2-rail production was rescued by Wrenn, but Binns Road closed and nobody was interested in taking on the already rather crude and obsolete likes of the A4 or Duchess, as out of scale and toy-like as the Rovex Black Princess had been, as the die cast production had become too costly for the market to bear.  Wrenn never made themselves millionaires out of the rather better stuff they were making.

 

Triang in those days was improving steadily and had produced some half decent models in plastic; the 31 was pretty good in it's day and they were the first on the scene with scale length RTR coaches.  They bought the right to use the Hornby name, and promptly rebranded themselves as 'Triang Hornby', and a coupling converter van was produced so that you could mix older Triang and Hornby Dublo 2 rail stock in the same train.  Most of us just hooked the Triang tension lock hook over the HD 'buckeye' and crossed our fingers...  Triang Hornby eventually dropped the 'Triang' part and the rest is history.

 

So, current Hornby is genetically Rovex/Triang and owes absolutely nothing to Hornby Dublo beyond a bought name and the marketing advantage that came with it.  Whether you regard this as in any way mendacious is up to you.

 

Interesting to play 'what if' and pretend HD never went under.  They would almost certainly have had to abandon 3 rail and short coaches with tinplate printed sides, and had already moved to plastic injection moulding for goods vehicle bodies and some locomotives; they'd have had to go head to head with Triang. who in turn would have had to up their game in terms of scale appearance, particularly with valve gear, and finish.  It was still normal to build locos with flangeless centre drivers in those days so as to be able to use 13 inch radius curves, but HD were producing to BRSMB standards with finer rail and flange sections; Triang may have had to introduce new standards and a new range of track better than 'Super 4'.  The Ringfield motor might have been a common feature of both ranges, and I suspect the firms would have eventually merged track production (no Peco Setrack then) and possibly merged altogether in response to the eventual entry of Lima, Airfix, and Mainline to the scene.  So Triang Hornby would probably made an appearance anyway sooner or later, but with much more HD input.

 

Yes its interesting to speculate . I know in one of these videos either Pat Hammond or Michael Foster speculates that Hornby Dublo would have evolved into something like the Airfix Railways range , with 3 rail (they had already discontinued it anyway) abandoned . Of course had they survived ,would Airfix, Mainline , Lima  have entered the UK market at all ? In part this really only happened because Hornby had a monopoly in the early 70s and actually struggled to supply, which was the reason for the massive cut back in the range in 1975. Don't forget ,though, that the British market has always been a low cost one . Both Airfix and Mainline were less expensive than Hornby when introduced yet brought greater standards of detail .  Lima were cheaper and brought more variety , but I doubt people would say were more accurate than Hornby at the time

 

Anyway we digress, it much more recent history that's of interest and hopefully covered by this program

[Fireline]

4 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

But Kent Live said this (my emphasis in bold):

 

"Operations were moved to Hersden near Canterbury, while the company's head office moved to Discovery Park in Sandwich.

In 2017, the historic site was sold to Locomotive Storage Ltd for £2.25 million, but Hornby kept a presence at the site and leased back the visitor centre and shop. It was hoped a new visitor centre could be built on Ramsgate seafront, but this fell through.

But now hopes in the brand have been renewed as all operations are set to return to Margate by April, and there will be 125 staff operating from the site."

 

All of which suggests something different.

 

 

Yes, it suggests that Kent Live weren't listening properly.... Andy has already confirmed that the warehouse operation is staying at Hersden. That's good enough for me.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Lima were cheaper and brought more variety , but I doubt people would say were more accurate than Hornby at the time

I disagree with that. They made several models which can be compared side by side:

 

Lima 09 had outside frames. Hornby 08 had incorrect inside frames.

Hornby 37 had 31 then 47 bogies. Lima's 37 was a later release but this had correct bogies. Grilles & bodyside fittings were far more accurate too.

Original Hornby Mk3 was too short. Lima one was the correct length.

Lima HST was assembled squarely. Hornby ones never seemed to have the cabs put on straight & the underframes were less detailed.

Westerns had massive differences but had their faults.

Hornby Mk1s had poorly modelled B4 bogies. All Limas had Mk1 bogies which may not have been correct for more modern variants but they were moulded reasonably well.

 

Hornby have taken huge steps forward now, but their 1980s diesel range was way behind Lima's.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

........Anyway we digress, it much more recent history that's of interest and hopefully covered by this program

 

I quite agree with that.

As interesting as some find the ancient history of the various roots of the present day Hornby, it is totally irrelevant to the present day company and its recent "modern" history.

The last 20 years since the move to Chinese production and a rebirth of the company, is the only worthwhile historical context in which to observe and judge the company's current fortunes and circumstances.

Only the future can determine Hornby's prospects for survival, not the past.

 

 

 

...

[Robin Brasher]

Lima made some models that were better than Hornby and some that were worse. They were both making Mk1 coaches in the big four liveries.

 

Coming back to topic it looks like the programme is about Hornby as a company and not just about Hornby Railways. The programme will probably include Scalextric and Airfix and it will be interesting how they are performing compared with the railways.  I am not sure that Hornby Railways are in decline. They seem to have overcome the supply problems with the Duchess and Coronation models coming out on time. In Swanage we have two model shops selling Hornby railways whereas we did not have any in the 1970s.

 

[The Johnster]

I’d agree that Lima were pretty good at plastic mouldings, but their chassis and mechanisms were a joke, and not a very funny one.  The 08 looked better than the old Triang Jinty chassis one, but was inferior in every respect to HD’s discontinued version. 

 

Cabs full of motors, crude wheels, poor motors and cheap/nasty drive trains along with tyres apparently designed with the purpose of picking up as much crud as possible and spreading it all over your layout made any attempt at running below a scale 30mph a bit wobbly.  Tender drives with spur gears visible (Airfix we’re guilty as well of this), steam chassis with uncoupled centre drivers, and more visible spur gears, poor pickup performance.  No thanks. 

 

Westerns are a particular issue if you use tension lock couplers, and I am reluctant to criticise Lima for this particular loco, but the Triang Hornby one ran much better!

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

I quite agree with that.

As interesting as some find the ancient history of the various roots of the present day Hornby, it is totally irrelevant to the present day company and its recent "modern" history.

The last 20 years since the move to Chinese production and a rebirth of the company, is the only worthwhile historical context in which to observe and judge the company's current fortunes and circumstances.

Only the future can determine Hornby's prospects for survival, not the past.

 

 

 

...

Exactly so - this is what really interest me as well and has been more than amply listed above. by 'Legend'.  But it would be interesting, and in some respects instructive, to learn why Hornby followed the particular paths that it did in respect of both production and even more so in the matter of acquisitions and its subsequent business plans.  A look back through the company's annual reports shows a very clear, and sudden, movement from profitability to ever increasing losses and we will be forever left running if the marketing blunders over the Olympics played a part in that?  Unless these programmes address such issues.

 

While I doubt we'll be told much it would also be very interesting to learn how LCD has grabbed the cost issues and wider managerial issues in the Group by the scruff of the neck and is setting the cost base of the company at a more appropriate level for its turnover.  It's all of this, as much as nice new models, which will help secure the future of the company and has no doubt in part been responsible for stabilising the share price.