PAT Testing - Any hints.....

[apj64]

Not Totally on topic but related

 

I PAT Test a very well known High St Chemist as part of my job and you would be surprised at the amount of equipment that I tested last year and failed, On returning to do this years tests I have found a number of items that had the failed stickers removed ( some not and still being used with the failed stickers on) and back in service so this year all failed items now get listed on the job sheet with the PAT Label ID number item description and the Store Manager now has to sign to confirm his acceptance that these items have failed the PAT test and must not be used.

At one branch I failed a radio that had been dropped and the casing was badly damaged. I placed failed stickers on it including one round the earth pin of the plug ( so it cant be pluged in) within 5 minutes a cleaner had removed the sticker and pluged it in. Strong words with the store Manager followed.

Most failures are normally caused by abuse of leads and plugs

PAT testing is there for a reason.. your safety and the safety of others

[Dagworth]

Not Totally on topic but related

 

I PAT Test a very well known High St Chemist as part of my job and you would be surprised at the amount of equipment that I tested last year and failed, On returning to do this years tests I have found a number of items that had the failed stickers removed ( some not and still being used with the failed stickers on) and back in service so this year all failed items now get listed on the job sheet with the PAT Label ID number item description and the Store Manager now has to sign to confirm his acceptance that these items have failed the PAT test and must not be used.

At one branch I failed a radio that had been dropped and the casing was badly damaged. I placed failed stickers on it including one round the earth pin of the plug ( so it cant be pluged in) within 5 minutes a cleaner had removed the sticker and pluged it in. Strong words with the store Manager followed.

Most failures are normally caused by abuse of leads and plugs

PAT testing is there for a reason.. your safety and the safety of others

 

I'm not adverse to cutting the plug off something that is dangerous to prevent its use.

 

Andi

[Pannier Tank]

I'm not adverse to cutting the plug off something that is dangerous to prevent its use.

 

Andi

 

Then what do you do with the extreamly more dangerous Plug and Bare Ended Lead

[petethemole]

"Then what do you do with the extreamly more dangerous Plug and Bare Ended Lead"

 

Make a washing line out of it. A student house occupied by sone friuends in 1971-2 had a line in the kitchen they used for drying tea towels. One day I helped wash up and got a shock when hanging up the wet tea towel. On investigation I found tha line was a length of tatty two-core cable with exposed copper wire in places. Tracing it to the ends revealed that one end was plugged into a live socket! Alteratively, do what my aged grandfather once did (to the horror of my Dad & uncle when they found it) and put a plug on the other end and use it in a string of leads for Xmas lights! Needless to say I don't recommend these. Normal practise where I work is to cut the plug lead as close to the plug as possible, then bin it.

Pete

[Hesperus]

I do the PAT testing at work and I have to say that I agree with the cut the plug off comments, the use for them however is to replace all those plugs with damaged casings that you find ten minutes later. Fortunatly all the equipment I test belongs to my employer so I can do this.

[Talltim]

Not a good idea... what happens if you put a pass sticker on something that is not safe and someone gets hurt?

 

Andi

 

The same as if it didn't have a sticker and they got hurt. A sticker doesn't make it safer or more dangerous

Edit Actually, might might make it safer by insulating it.

[Mod5]

As suggested by Mod 2 above this is maybe not the best place for flippant comments. So we would much prefer sensible advice to what after all is a subject that could affect all of us in some way as exhibitors or paying visitors.

[Dagworth]

The same as if it didn't have a sticker and they got hurt. A sticker doesn't make it safer or more dangerous

Edit Actually, might might make it safer by insulating it.

 

 

That's not the case Tim, the quoted post by myself was in reference to a suggestion of putting a pass sticker on untested equipment with the clear intention of it being accepted as safe. Had no sticker been applied then the equipment would NOT have been accepted without being tested.

Would you get into a car where you knew the driver had given the mechanic a back hander to not see the dodgy brakes on the MOT test?

 

Andi

[Sam Moss]

Makes me wonder how many appliances have stickers but haven't been tested. I enquired about buying a PAT testing set through screwfix. The wouldn't sell me one as I was under 18 at the time, but I could buy a roll of 500 stickers.

[Happy Hippo]

Makes me wonder how many appliances have stickers but haven't been tested. I enquired about buying a PAT testing set through screwfix. The wouldn't sell me one as I was under 18 at the time, but I could buy a roll of 500 stickers.

 

Sam,

 

Even if you had been allowed to by a PAT kit, would you:

 

a. Know how to use it, or

 

b. Have completed the PAT testers course and recieved the certificate.......which has to be renewed every so many years to prove your continued competancy.

 

Plus If you buy a PAT testing kit is it has to be checked every so often to ensure it is not giving false readings. (I often wonder if the test kit is tested by a superior test kit which is in turn tested by another ad nauseum)

 

Over the years I have been responsible for issuing a certification on electrical items and boilers. Although the certificate is valid for a period of time before retest, the certificate is only of use at the point of issue. The MOT is a prime example of this: Your car passes with flying colours, you drive out of the garage, a rear brake light blows.......if you took it back to the same garage for a retest they'd have to fail it.

 

As has been pointed out before, the main problem with items being brought forward for testing is damamge to the casing/flex/plug.

 

One point that hasn't been made in this forum yet is that PAT testing only applies to items that are mains operated or your extension cables. I did have cause to point this out to someone who seemed insistent in testing all the stuff that was plugged into the low voltage side of the transformer.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[melmerby]

 

Plus If you buy a PAT testing kit is it has to be checked every so often to ensure it is not giving false readings. (I often wonder if the test kit is tested by a superior test kit which is in turn tested by another ad nauseum)

 

 

Richard

 

I used to test PAT testers and you check them against prime standards, which can be referenced back to National Standards.

And the PAT tester also has to be PAT tested, it's a portable appliance after all!

Keith

[Dagworth]

Sam,

 

Even if you had been allowed to by a PAT kit, would you:

 

a. Know how to use it, or

 

b. Have completed the PAT testers course and recieved the certificate.......which has to be renewed every so many years to prove your continued competancy.

 

There is NO legal requirement to have passed any sort of course to use a PAT tester.

The legislation only talks of competence

The IEE Code of Practice states, those carrying out the inspection and testing must be competent to undertake the inspection and, where appropriate, testing of electrical equipment and appliances having due regard of their own safety and that of others.

(my emphasis)

See http://www.pat-testing.info/who.htm and http://www.pat-testing.info/training.htm

 

Andi

[Xerces Fobe2]

If electricians can't help at short notice try your local sound and lighting hire company (the kind of places that provide PA and lighting for the events industry), most of these places also do PAT testing and the industry is much more geared to short notice work.

 

Andi

 

Andi - Do you happen to know anyone in sound and lighting business?

[Dagworth]

Andi - Do you happen to know anyone in sound and lighting business?

 

No, why?

 

A

[Penlan]

I have been doing some testing recently of our 240V supply cables that belong to our Village Harbour Christmas Lights Committee, these are required for various displays etc. at our Summer Carnival, first thing I find is most cables had the earth wire trimmed back into the sheathing, so no earth connection - we use splash proof circular 3 pin connectors (not the standard domestic plugs and sockets). I was using the Mains Tester plug with different coloured leds to show what's right/wrong.

 

Once they were sorted - a lengthy job - for an original 5 min task, I then found one cable still had a earth fault, it was the full 100 metres long and laid out on the quay side. We could not work it out, then I spotted some blue tape around the blue cable, not seeming to be doing much, unfurled it and found a knife cut into the sheathing and clean through the earth wire, also nicked into the negative wire. We had spent a long time last winter trying to solve an intermittant fault on the Christmas light display this cable serviced, now solved - but why o' why did they patch it up like that. EDIT - Why didn't we find it last winter? well out on the Old Quay, South Easterly wind/gale, water crashing over the harbour wall onto you - it's not the best time to make sensible/reasoned observations and judgements on what a problem's solution may be, other than '..lets get out of here and go and sit by the fire in the pub...'.

 

Reading the riot act to our volunteers at a meeting last week re. responsibility for H&S etc in electrics (remembering we are dealing with 240V's in the harbour/sea ) and our H&S co-ordinator said he had been caught out recently with a PAT test at a H&S exhibition, he'd borrowed one of our cables, not checked it, plugged everything in for his stand at the H&S event, PAT tester came, condemded it outright and our man then found himself suddenly with no time at all to source some new cable etc. He was both embarrassed and annoyed.

 

Just a little item. I had a shock this last winter (one of about half a dozen) from a cable, about 6 feet from it's plug, it was hanging down from a connector, water had got into the plug and was travelling down the outer sheathing by capillary action, there was a small nick in the sheathing just were I was holding it, just enough for the moisture to have effect - Struth, that made me jump

 

PS - The reason historically the 3 core cables had their earth wire cut back is because most of the time they only provided power to 2 core festoon lighting cables - I've now risen to the top of the pile as everyday electrician on site and I'm making sure that everything is correct, because you never know for what purpose somebody may borrow something.

[Happy Hippo]

There is NO legal requirement to have passed any sort of course to use a PAT tester.

The legislation only talks of competence

 

(my emphasis)

See http://www.pat-testing.info/who.htm and http://www.pat-testing.info/training.htm

 

Andi

 

Andi,

 

Sorry if I was sounding dictatorial, what I was trying to put over to Sam was that you can buy this test equipment, but if you start testing and signing off certificates, you could be letting yourself in for a whole load of trouble. I am not a qualified electrician, but my electrical work is competent. I've read the books and have had plenty of practice. However, under the new (2004?)regulations any electrical work I did around our house has had to be certified by a competent and qualified individual.

 

Back to the PAT testing: When I worked for the local education authority, I was asked to carry out PAT testing at the school where I worked. I understood the principals involved and could competently test portable equipment, but I was not allowed to start testing until my competency had been independently assessed on a competency course. As an aside I also had to attend courses to prove my competency in the use of machine tools (Wood/metal) and welding/soldering/casting.

 

The local EA had to have me 'certified competent' for insurance purposes. Their argument was if someone was electrocuted by a piece of equipment I had certified as safe or if someone was injured whilst I was supervising them using machine tools, lawyers would have a field day with me in court if I could only say; "Well I read the book and took it from there." Regardless of how many items I had certified safe, or how many years I had been using a lathe/mill/welding gear it only requires one accident and in this day and age, and without the relevant certificate it is difficult to get professional indemnity insurance and you could be up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

 

I am sure that there are many RM webbers who are like me, and wonder whatever happened to common sense in these matters.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Penlan]

........... and without the relevant certificate it is difficult to get professional indemnity insurance and you could be up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

 

I am sure that there are many RM webbers who are like me, and wonder whatever happened to common sense in these matters.

Re. last sentance, yes I'm one of those, been testing equipment, checking installations etc., and wondering where common sense ....

 

On the Insurance front - re. our harbour lights, I tried to get insurance cover for us volunteers doing the work, both physical and electrical, but for those of us retired (most of us) the insurance companies said we had no value - no loss of earnings, sick pay etc., etc., thus they would not provide cover (I suppose they might if we paid £100k+ a year premium) it seems we are expendable - I tried argueing that if we had a serious accident we could easily be committed to a wheel chair for the next 20 years, and thus all the inconvience that creates, no luck.

 

We have third party Public Liability and fortunately in the last 47 years no member of the public has stuck their finger(s) in a socket to see if it's alive - but we wait

[96701]

then I spotted some blue tape around the blue cable, not seeming to be doing much, unfurled it and found a knife cut into the sheathing and clean through the earth wire, also nicked into the negative wire. We had spent a long time last winter trying to solve an intermittant fault on the Christmas light display this cable serviced, now solved - but why o' why did they patch it up like that.

 

 

Re. last sentance, yes I'm one of those, been testing equipment, checking installations etc., and wondering where common sense ....

 

We all have common sense, even those of us who are not yet competent..................

As for being uninsurable, that is pathetic. Please don't stand back to admire your work whilst on the ladder.

[meple]

 

Reading the riot act to our volunteers at a meeting last week re. responsibility for H&S etc in electrics (remembering we are dealing with 240V's in the harbour/sea )

 

 

Ever thought of moving over to a 110v system given the environmental conditions?

[Penlan]

Ever thought of moving over to a 110v system given the environmental conditions?

Yes, we have - we did have 110V on the offshore island too, but the voltage drop didn't help, it was over half a' mile of armoured cable under the sea, the cable kept being broken by the rocks moving with the tides, etc., etc., - I have spent many an hour in a little boat hauling the cable up to find the break, repairing it and making good the structural strength and water proofing (first time lacerating my palms from the barnicals on the cable). We have just converted to a 28V Led system out there powered from a yaught wind turbine - that's having it's problems too.

 

I think many years ago 120V was considered/used for the main land, but transformers kept being nicked etc., we have about 10,000 bulbs in the displays, so a lot of transformers used around the village and up in the fields overlooking the village.

 

We are slowly converting to 24v systems, but this again brings it's own problems, transformers, we get through a few of them when the seals on the container boxes are not 100% water tight, or if it's a floating display in the harbour and it gets tipped over in a South Easterly gale - that doesn't do the works much good either.

 

Christmas/winter time is a silly time to have the 'Festive Season' and 'Tom Bowcocks Eve' with live electrics in the harbour and fields, it would be so much easier, and safer in the summer B)

 

The base line also is it's all voluntary work - not many qualified electricians about, there's not that much time to repair, rewire etc the displays, and of course funding, I've already spent £1,200 on timber this year and £3,000 on wire, transformer, bulbs (24V and 240V) fittings. ...and this was started in 1963 when a couple of wires to power some lights was no big deal, anybody could handle it, there's always been a nod to safety of course, but it's an old fashioned village affair with all the casualness that goes with it, if we were to start today, we wouldn't.

 

According to the blurb, there's a 'crew/gang' of 30+ doing the work, I don't know where they are when the press isn't here, their certainly not in the stores shed helping.

[Steven B]

Sigh.

 

Why is it a simple health and safety issue gets blown out of all proportion by folk who don't have full understanding of the rules and regulations. More often than not H&S "rules" have nothing to do with what the HSE actually recommends:

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg247.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg107.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/electricequip.htm

 

 

Oddly you could power your layout off a couple of 12V car batteries and not have to pass any PAT test yet could still give yourself a decent electric shock.

 

Happy modelling,

 

Steven B.

[PWSlack]

Put the onus back on the Host. Reply stating that the electrics are available for inspection at the show and that if the Host cannot offer an assurance that the PAT Test Certificate can be issued on the day then the layout will not attend.

 

i.e. call their bluff!

[Baby Deltic]

I taken the legal stuff seriously. I'm still building the control panel for an exhibition layout. The standard of wiring/soldering, etc is up to scratch, but it contains three mains transformers. Everything is insulated and earthed, and you'd be very hard pressed to get a shock off it, even with the covers off. That said, I am going to take it into work and get it PAT tested and certified before it goes out. In the eyes of the law I am a competent EITB apprenticeship trained electrical/mechanical engineer, but not a qualified PAT tester or electrical installation inspector. Better safe than sorry.