Class 314’s to work the Gospel Oak - Barking route

[TravisM]

I had a quick glance at the latest issue of Railway Magazine and to my astonishment there was a snippet about surplus ScotRail Class 314’s going to Eastleigh for overhauling, then back to work for TfL on the Gospel Oak - Barking (GOB) Line due to the delay in commissioning of the Class 710’s.

 

If this were to be true, I find it astounding that they would go all the way to Glasgow to get these units when 313’s and 315’s are coming off lease, especially the 313’s with the 717’s entering service.  Even though they are newer, I have to ask, are the 314’s in better condition than the 313’s?

[31A]

Surprised they didn't think of this earlier (but would have expected 315s or 313s to be used), but wouldn't there be an issue with DOO equipment on the stations, or lack of?

[Covkid]

58 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I had a quick glance at the latest issue of Railway Magazine and to my astonishment there was a snippet about surplus ScotRail Class 314’s going to Eastleigh for overhauling, then back to work for TfL on the Gospel Oak - Barking (GOB) Line due to the delay in commissioning of the Class 710’s.

 

If this were to be true, I find it astounding that they would go all the way to Glasgow to get these units when 313’s and 315’s are coming off lease, especially the 313’s with the 717’s entering service.  Even though they are newer, I have to ask, are the 314’s in better condition than the 313’s?

 

Jools - are you sure it is not an April edition prank ? 

[TravisM]

45 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Jools - are you sure it is not an April edition prank ? 

 

Possibly, I was just flicking through as I planned to buy it but the queue at the checkout was too long and I’d missed my train.  If they had said 313’s or shortened 315’s, it would have sounded plausible.

[adb968008]

I’m expecting WCRC to turn up with top/tail class 37’s

[DY444]

Maybe it's just me getting old but as April fools go it's limper than old lettuce.  The irony of course being that TfL could and should have done far more to run the full service once it became clear that the 710s were not going to be ready.  I've heard all the "reasons" why nothing more could be done but there were ways around all of them had those in charge actually wanted to find a solution.      

Edited April 7, 2019 by DY444

[ruggedpeak]

4 hours ago, DY444 said:

Maybe it's just me getting old but as April fools go it's limper than old lettuce.  The irony of course being that TfL could and should have done far more to run the full service once it became clear that the 710s were not going to be ready.  I've heard all the "reasons" why nothing more could be done but there were ways around all of them had those in charge actually wanted to find a solution.      

Yet Sadiq is still banging on about TfL taking on suburban lines from NR.

[mdvle]

16 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Jools - are you sure it is not an April edition prank ? 

 

It's on the website dated April 3rd - https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/former-scotrail-class-314s-heading-for-goblin-work/

[Bomag]

It is sometime since I was on a 314 but I think that it can be used DOO and also guard control. Given 717s are also late there may not be enough 'good' 313's freed up and ditto 315's vs the 345s. 

[caradoc]

When Class 314 was introduced their services had Guards, but they have run on DOO routes (only) for many years now, so not sure whether Guard control of doors is still possible.

[flapland]

Personally hoping for top and tail Standard Class 4 Tanks and a 4 MK1's as this is local to me. :-) 

[John M Upton]

Class 314's will be akin to Class 313's.  On stations where mirrors/cameras are provided on the platforms and/or manned with dispatch staff then they can work DOO as per the Great Northern ones.  Where there is no dispatch staff and/or platform DOO equipment, a guard has to be provided as per the Southern ones.  The same applies to all non DOO equipped EMU's and DMU's which is basically everything built up until quite recently including SWT's Desiro fleet.

[phil-b259]

31 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Class 314's will be akin to Class 313's.  On stations where mirrors/cameras are provided on the platforms and/or manned with dispatch staff then they can work DOO as per the Great Northern ones.  Where there is no dispatch staff and/or platform DOO equipment, a guard has to be provided as per the Southern ones.  The same applies to all non DOO equipped EMU's and DMU's which is basically everything built up until quite recently including SWT's Desiro fleet.

 

The newly electrified Gospal Oak to Barking line lacks any platform mounted DOO infrastructure - like all modern DOO schemes the kit is entirely train** mounted.

 

The new 710s, like the 387s are to be DOO.

 

That means Guards would be needed for any 313 / 314 based solution - however given TfL in general has no need of guards (the North London line / West London line went DOO in 2013) and the ex guards used with the 172s will be heading for new roles, so it may not be that easy to rustle up some at quick notice.

 

It has been suggested that the 314s may head towards TfL Rails Liverpool Street to Chingfiord / Endfield / Cheshunt lines - which do have platform mounted DOO equipment (thanks to DOO having been introduced before privatisation on these routes) as the the 315s are not faring well in the reliability stakes.

 

That said, given the London Mayor / TfL are getting a right kicking over the service (or lack of it) on the Gospel Oak to Barking line (which is currently getting by with three shortened 387 units nicked from the North London Line fleet *) and Bombardier still carn't give a date when the 710s will be ready for service the pressure is mounting for alternative solutions.

 

 

* which means the GoBlin + NLL  + WLL fleets have ZERO units spare during the day and any faults / extended maintenance requirements will result in cancellations due to a shortage of stock.

 

** ALL Electrostars, including the very first batch ordered by Connex feature train mounted DOO equipment and the same is true of the Desiro family initially ordered by SWT. Effectively NOTHING ordered in the post privatisation period requires any platform mounted DOO kit - where as all British Rail built / ordered stuff does.

Edited April 7, 2019 by phil-b259

[John M Upton]

Slight correction, all of SWT's 450's and 444's do not have any DOO equipment.  Stagecoach always believed in Guard operation so never specified it.  It could be retrofitted at some point but the cost would probably be prohibitive.

[phil-b259]

46 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Slight correction, all of SWT's 450's and 444's do not have any DOO equipment.  Stagecoach always believed in Guard operation so never specified it.  It could be retrofitted at some point but the cost would probably be prohibitive.

 

Indeed so - it seems I was mistaken as a review of online images shows that none of the Desiro family (including the EMUs built for FGE and the DMUs built for TPE) have the camera pods on the sides necessary.

 

While I was very well aware Stagecoach had decided to retain guards I thought the trains were still equipped for it in most respects (if for no other reason than to 'future proof' them* by the actual owners against changes in TOCs in future years.

 

* In the same way they can be equiped for 3rd rail, OLE or both

Edited April 7, 2019 by phil-b259

[DY444]

11 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Class 314's will be akin to Class 313's.  On stations where mirrors/cameras are provided on the platforms and/or manned with dispatch staff then they can work DOO as per the Great Northern ones.  Where there is no dispatch staff and/or platform DOO equipment, a guard has to be provided as per the Southern ones.  The same applies to all non DOO equipped EMU's and DMU's which is basically everything built up until quite recently including SWT's Desiro fleet.

 

In a parallel fantasy universe nowhere near London:  Just think how different the options would be if only TfL had access to scores of station staff recruited to man stations on a new line that was supposed to open last December.  Had they been in that wholly hypothetical position then with some vision, lateral thinking, nous, negotiating skills, leadership and determination (ha - I did say it was fantasy) they could have trained and deployed those staff at GOBLIN line stations as a temporary solution.  But in the real universe it's just easier to shrug your shoulders and say it's all too hard and not even bother to try.   

Edited April 8, 2019 by DY444

[roythebus]

I thought they were getting Pacers for the GOBLIN according to recent reports at the start of April.

[caradoc]

Would it not be simpler to fully convert the Liverpool St/Shenfield service to Class 345, eliminating Class 315 unreliability on that route at least, enabling more of the worst sets to be withdrawn, and releasing sets for Gospel Oak/Barking ?

[caradoc]

22 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

In a parallel fantasy universe nowhere near London:  Just think how different the options would be if only TfL had access to scores of station staff recruited to man stations on a new line that was supposed to open last December.  Had they been in that wholly hypothetical position then with some vision, lateral thinking, nous, negotiating skills, leadership and determination (ha - I did say it was fantasy) they could have trained and deployed those staff at GOBLIN line stations as a temporary solution.  But in the real universe it's just easier to shrug your shoulders and say it's all too hard and not even bother to try.   

 

Scotrail gets plenty of criticism, but they showed what can be done with the rapid introduction of Class 365 when Class 385 was delayed.

 

[jim.snowdon]

On 8 April 2019 at 08:20, DY444 said:

 

In a parallel fantasy universe nowhere near London:  Just think how different the options would be if only TfL had access to scores of station staff recruited to man stations on a new line that was supposed to open last December.  Had they been in that wholly hypothetical position then with some vision, lateral thinking, nous, negotiating skills, leadership and determination (ha - I did say it was fantasy) they could have trained and deployed those staff at GOBLIN line stations as a temporary solution.  But in the real universe it's just easier to shrug your shoulders and say it's all too hard and not even bother to try.   

I can speak for the Gospel Oak line, but almost immediately after TfL took over the Great Western stations that would be served by Crossrail there was a very noticeable increase in the numbers of staff. Possibly, finding additional platform staff to manage train despatch may not be that difficult.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Scotrail gets plenty of criticism, but they showed what can be done with the rapid introduction of Class 365 when Class 385 was delayed.

 

They were helped in that endeavour by a fleet of suitable EMUs being freshly off lease. I guess some 315s would be available from the 345 introduction, but I don't think anything with train mounted DOO kit is knocking around waiting for work right now.

[St. Simon]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

Would it not be simpler to fully convert the Liverpool St/Shenfield service to Class 345, eliminating Class 315 unreliability on that route at least, enabling more of the worst sets to be withdrawn, and releasing sets for Gospel Oak/Barking ?

 

Hi,

 

I don't think there are enough good Class 345s ready for service for all the 315s to be cascaded / withdrawn, there are still some significant software problems with the 345s.

 

Simon

[Karhedron]

On 06/04/2019 at 21:56, jools1959 said:

Even though they are newer, I have to ask, are the 314’s in better condition than the 313’s?

 

I have no knowledge but the 313s have been worked pretty hard on a lot of routes. It is possible that the 314s have lower mileage (or at least, lower mileage since their were last refurbished). Just speculation on my part.

[John M Upton]

From what I understand, the Great Northern 313's are in the main worn out and with a few exceptions fit really only as parts donors for the Southern ones which are apparently factory fresh by comparison. 

 

I don't think any major work has been done on the GN ones since FCC days.

[jim.snowdon]

9 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

I don't think there are enough good Class 345s ready for service for all the 315s to be cascaded / withdrawn, there are still some significant software problems with the 345s.

 

Simon

You would like to think that having got the Electrostar family firmly established, companies like Bombardier would capitalise on them rather than, as is seeming to be the case, starting a new family of trains from scratch. It's like change for its own sake, rather than necessity.

 

Jim