Risk and reality

[locoholic]

Yesterday I was told off for leaning out of the window of a Mark 1 carriage on a railtour - whilst the train was stationary at a booked platform stop, and the window I was leaning out of was adjacent to said platform. I've been trying, but I simply can't think of any risk attached to this activity at all.

 

This is in marked contrast to the situation at the start of the railtour, when several hundred people were crammed onto the very narrow platform at Linlithgow, with trains passing at line speed (75mph?) just inches away. The potential risks of that situation were very serious indeed, but apparently that is acceptable.

 

What has gone wrong? Why is there such a big gap between actual risks in reality and nonsensical rules?

[woodenhead]

The risk is the person who asked you to not lean out was doing their job and if the train left the station and later you were decapitated he may be in trouble with the law for not doing his job.

 

But point taken, a platform should not be allowed to be overcrowded 

[jim.snowdon]

Rule 1 - you are ultimately responsible for your own actions.

 

Jim

[Bomag]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

The risk is the person who asked you to not lean out was doing their job and if the train left the station and later you were decapitated he may be in trouble with the law for not doing his job.

 

But point taken, a platform should not be allowed to be overcrowded 

 

The correct request would have been to say that once the train was moving would you please not lean out of the window. 

[locoholic]

4 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Rule 1 - you are ultimately responsible for your own actions.

 

Jim

But technically I could have been thrown off the train for doing something that is not even remotely risky!

[black and decker boy]

Why didn’t you just open the whole door? Same view but not against any rules...

[brianusa]

Self preservation is a marvelous thing!   Sadly more than a few don't understand the concept which is probably why the powers that be err on the side of caution if only to avoid legal action.

          Brian.

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, locoholic said:

Yesterday I was told off for leaning out of the window of a Mark 1 carriage on a railtour - whilst the train was stationary at a booked platform stop, and the window I was leaning out of was adjacent to said platform. I've been trying, but I simply can't think of any risk attached to this activity at all.

 

You, and many on here, realize the difference between a moving train vs the platform side of a stopped train.

 

Most others don't, and thus the appearance of someone leaning out of a window make it appear that it is an acceptable thing to do.

 

Given relatively recent incidents it also may well be an insurance and/or legal liability issue where the nuances can quickly get lost.  Thus the insurance coverage specifies that leaning out of windows is not allowed and thus should be dealt with.  Or staff find it easier (and safer) to be able to honestly reply with the simple, unambiguous answer if anything does happen that they told said person that it wasn't allowed rather than trying to convince a police officer or injured person's lawyer that the distinctions between what was safe and dangerous had been explained in such a way that the injured party fully understood things.

[bimble]

meanwhile in Germany... it wasn't until they were give high-fives between the trains that I actually laughed out loud...

[The Johnster]

I think the problem here is that you have a very clear idea of what is safe to do, and act sensibly, but you are not everybody else.  Everybody else includes people who are not only stupid beyond belief, but litigious when they are injured by their own actions, as are their probably equally stupid relatives when they are killed.  So there has to be a rule that applies to everybody, which means everybody else as well as you, and you have to abide by it.  It is intensely irritating, but sadly necessary.

 

Things have at least improved a little since the days when a certain type of enthusiast wandered about on busy main lines in hi-viz carrying a VHS camera, but Flying Scotsman was held up by linesiders only a few days ago by Darwin Award contestants.  We have, collectively but not individually, only ourselves to blame.

 

When mk2 air conditioned stock was first introduced in the early 70s on the ECML, the door windows were fixed shut in order that the internal air conditioned and heated environment wasn't compromised. The doors were opened from the inside by a spring loaded aluminium door handle, and both BR and the D of E reckoned that this was safe; there were prominent notices explaining the dangers of opening the door while the train was not stationary at a platform.  The new stock was in service for less than a week when a passenger who had had too much to drink staggered out of a toilet into the door handle and decanted himself onto the opposite track at over 100mph.  One sort of hopes he was killed outright, as he was almost immediately run over by a down express.  This incident took place on the Thirsk straight, IIRC.

 

The train was taken out of service at York, and all such stock immediately 'stopped'.  The doors were replaced with standard mk 2 wraparounds with opening droplights and no internal handles, but it illustrates that people in general cannot be told to look after themselves of their own accord, they have to be made to.

 

At the time, a new airco mk2 was at Canton for guard training; we had to be able to switch the heating and airco on and off.  This coach retained the handle, but it was explained that it was going back to York to have new doors fitted.

Edited May 7, 2019 by The Johnster

[Mark Saunders]

39 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

When mk2 air conditioned stock was first introduced in the early 70s on the ECML, the door windows were fixed shut in order that the internal air conditioned and heated environment wasn't compromised. The doors were opened from the inside by a spring loaded aluminium door handle, and both BR and the D of E reckoned that this was safe; there were prominent notices explaining the dangers of opening the door while the train was not stationary at a platform.  The new stock was in service for less than a week when a passenger who had had too much to drink staggered out of a toilet into the door handle and decanted himself onto the opposite track at over 100mph.  One sort of hopes he was killed outright, as he was almost immediately run over by a down express.  This incident took place on the Thirsk straight, IIRC.

 

The train was taken out of service at York, and all such stock immediately 'stopped'.  The doors were replaced with standard mk 2 wraparounds with opening droplights and no internal handles, but it illustrates that people in general cannot be told to look after themselves of their own accord, they have to be made to.

 

 

It has puzzled me from many years ago why DMU's (1st generation) had handles on the inside but loco hauled Mk1/2 had them outside only!

[lmsforever]

Just watched the scotsman video  one idiot was lineside by a bridge and kept coming out to trackside, a passing dmu stopped and obviously told him his fortune.Scotsman stopped and the crew made a twit go back on the bridge which he did trying to not be recognised.After the train had departed the two of them sat on the parapet as though nothing had happened hope someone recognises them and reports to police.

[jim.snowdon]

And the braking distance of the said DMU is? If its driver could see the "idiot " from far enough back to stop, it follows that the "idiot" could see just as far, which is a good bit further than we can judge from the picture. I don't think that standing on the inside of a curve is exactly a good idea, but we cannot see what he could see, so the typical knee-jerk reaction may not be as appropriate as you might think.

 

Jim

[petethemole]

From my reading of the video poster's notes, their location had been reported by a previous train in the opposite direction and all trains were warned to slow/stop at that point.

[roythebus]

Not forgetting the poor chap on the central division who was decapitated in the Wandsworth Common area whilst leaning out of a train window fairly recently. He was a railwayman and an enthusiast. Hence don't lean out of the window. Even when the train is stopped at a station, there could well be a train passing at speed on an adjacent track.

 

That is the risk and the reality of it.

Edited May 7, 2019 by roythebus

[Zomboid]

If the rule is "don't lean out of the window" then that is clear and enforceable to everyone. If you start creating exceptions then it opens the door for liberties to be taken, misunderstandings to occur, and someone to lean out of the window on a non-platform side and have their head taken off. And too many of those will lead to the removal of all droplight fitted carriages from the network.

[locoholic]

32 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

If the rule is "don't lean out of the window" then that is clear and enforceable to everyone. If you start creating exceptions then it opens the door for liberties to be taken, misunderstandings to occur, and someone to lean out of the window on a non-platform side and have their head taken off. And too many of those will lead to the removal of all droplight fitted carriages from the network.

That is exactly the idiotic mentality that is so annoying - ignore the actual situation in order to make it easier for the jobsworths. There is no risk whatsoever from leaning out of a stationary train window at a platform, but we'll ban it anyway. That is only one step away from insisting that every passenger remains seated for the duration of the journey, except for when they absolutely must go to the toilet. In fact, we'll install lockable seat belts to make absolutely sure.

[Zomboid]

It's not for the jobsworths so much as the fact that the wider public are no longer that familiar with slam doors and droplights and may not be aware of the risks they can pose. By leaning out in a relatively safe situation you're setting an example to someone who doesn't know the risks involved suggesting that it's ok to do that, and then they may do it when it's not safe to do so.

 

Plus why bother flailing at a station? I could understand if it was a Western/ 45/ 50 climbing a hill or something, but there's nothing I can think of worth flailing at on tickover.

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

If the rule is "don't lean out of the window" then that is clear and enforceable to everyone. If you start creating exceptions then it opens the door for liberties to be taken, misunderstandings to occur, and someone to lean out of the window on a non-platform side and have their head taken off. And too many of those will lead to the removal of all droplight fitted carriages from the network.

 

2 hours ago, locoholic said:

That is exactly the idiotic mentality that is so annoying - ignore the actual situation in order to make it easier for the jobsworths. There is no risk whatsoever from leaning out of a stationary train window at a platform, but we'll ban it anyway. That is only one step away from insisting that every passenger remains seated for the duration of the journey, except for when they absolutely must go to the toilet. In fact, we'll install lockable seat belts to make absolutely sure.

Because like in the other thread about Scotsman - where do you draw the line when it comes to how close you can you be to the operating line

 

Barriers like fences and rules like do not lean out of the window set the boundaries so that everyone can then know what they can and cannot do, like Zomboid says - the days of opening windows in trains are generally long gone so people are not so familiar - going back to that incident on a 442 - that person was an employee and he lost sight of how dangerous sticking your head out of a window can be on a moving train.  

 

Another potential issue for the dispatchers on the platform - that head sticking out of the window - is that person trying to get out of the train, are they stuck, do they need assistance?  It may confuse and delay departure whilst they check on that person as it is not part of a general dispatch procedure.

[locoholic]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It's not for the jobsworths so much as the fact that the wider public are no longer that familiar with slam doors and droplights and may not be aware of the risks they can pose. By leaning out in a relatively safe situation you're setting an example to someone who doesn't know the risks involved suggesting that it's ok to do that, and then they may do it when it's not safe to do so.

 

Plus why bother flailing at a station? I could understand if it was a Western/ 45/ 50 climbing a hill or something, but there's nothing I can think of worth flailing at on tickover.

Who was "flailing?" I was just looking along the train to see the loco. Incidentally, in the course of the whole twelve hours there was not one single chance to get a decent photo of the loco. The station staff at Aberdeen seemed to derive immense satisfaction from preventing access to the other platforms, and the empty stock for the return journey appeared at the platform only a minute before the scheduled departure time. And then of course there was the diesel on the back, which did a considerable amount of work during the trip.

 

In today's paper there's a story about "bored"children train surfing. Now there's a risky activity. 

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Zomboid said:

If the rule is "don't lean out of the window" then that is clear and enforceable to everyone. If you start creating exceptions then it opens the door for liberties to be taken, misunderstandings to occur, and someone to lean out of the window on a non-platform side and have their head taken off. And too many of those will lead to the removal of all droplight fitted carriages from the network.

An interesting point here is the pace at which droplight fitted stock is vanishing anyway - and HSTs apart there isn't too much of it left except on privately owned excursion sets using earlier vehicles but which also have stewards to keep an eye on things.

[caradoc]

On 06/05/2019 at 17:37, woodenhead said:

 

But point taken, a platform should not be allowed to be overcrowded 

 

The problem there being (at least as far as Linlithgow is concerned) is that it is an open station with no barriers, and on the Down side, direct level access from the car park straight onto the platform.

 

Regarding internal door handles on Mark 2/3 coaches; Despite the lack of them (other than as The Johnster says, on the first Mark 2d vehicles), passengers still opened doors on trains in motion resulting in fatalities; For some reason the Trent Valley route had a spate of such incidents. Eventually BR fitted Central Door Locking to address the issue.

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

If we are going to get round to the security of carriage doors, the European railways were onto self-contained automatic door locking long before BR adopted its rather more complicated system. 

 

Jim 

[Titan]

On 08/05/2019 at 19:04, caradoc said:

 

For some reason the Trent Valley route had a spate of such incidents.

 

The Tamworth Triangle as it became known...

 

[royaloak]

On 06/05/2019 at 18:50, jim.snowdon said:

Rule 1 - you are ultimately responsible for your own actions.

 

Jim

If only that was true, unfortunately 'the railway' has ultimate responsibility for everyone who visits it, therefore if anything happens, even through your own stupidity, 'the railway' will be found deficient in its duty of care towards you, so we now have this completely over the top situation where everyone is completely risk averse even when there isnt any risk at that particular time.