Risk and reality

[royaloak]

On 07/05/2019 at 22:30, petethemole said:

From my reading of the video poster's notes, their location had been reported by a previous train in the opposite direction and all trains were warned to slow/stop at that point.

Correct, the latest instances of Flying Scotsman related trespassing has caused several hours worth of delays which Network Rail will have to pay for, expect Flying Scotsman to be banned from the National Rail Network in the not too distant future, unless the tour operators are willing to accept liability and responsibility for all the delay minutes caused because Network Rail are getting mightily pissed off with having to pick up the tab.

[royaloak]

On 06/05/2019 at 18:51, Bomag said:

 

The correct request would have been to say that once the train was moving would you please not lean out of the window. 

Nope, the sign says do not lean out of the window, that is exactly what it means.

[royaloak]

On 07/05/2019 at 20:07, jim.snowdon said:

And the braking distance of the said DMU is? If its driver could see the "idiot " from far enough back to stop, it follows that the "idiot" could see just as far, which is a good bit further than we can judge from the picture. I don't think that standing on the inside of a curve is exactly a good idea, but we cannot see what he could see, so the typical knee-jerk reaction may not be as appropriate as you might think.

 

Jim

Trains were being stopped and cautioned due to the reported trespassing hence the DMU being able to stop in time, the cautioning caused several hours worth of delay which Network Rail will have to compensate the TOCs for.

[caradoc]

9 minutes ago, royaloak said:

If only that was true, unfortunately 'the railway' has ultimate responsibility for everyone who visits it, therefore if anything happens, even through your own stupidity, 'the railway' will be found deficient in its duty of care towards you, so we now have this completely over the top situation where everyone is completely risk averse even when there isnt any risk at that particular time.

 

However the case of the girl killed by a train while sitting on a level crossing (Page 162 of the Level Crossing stupidity topic) shows that that is not always true.

 

[royaloak]

Just now, caradoc said:

 

However the case of the girl killed by a train while sitting on a level crossing (Page 162 of the Level Crossing stupidity topic) shows that that is not always true.

 

Although the Mother of said girl tried to blame the railway because the train was almost silent and it didnt sound its horn, completely in compliance with the rule book.

[caradoc]

16 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Although the Mother of said girl tried to blame the railway because the train was almost silent and it didnt sound its horn, completely in compliance with the rule book.

 

She did indeed, but the railway was cleared of any blame.

 

[Bomag]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

Nope, the sign says do not lean out of the window, that is exactly what it means.

 

Sorry what sign? The one often next to the sign which says lean out and open the door from the outside?

[adb968008]

Meanwhile at Dhaka Airport, the Airport express train is leaving...

 

 

 

[adb968008]

The whole banning standing by a window thing seems over handed and bizarre.

 

it started following the  SPAD with 34067 at Wootton Bassett, and appears to be a knee jerk response at general tightening up, as it had nothing to do with the SPAD itself.

 

Theres only 1 precedent to this in railtours, which was the mid1990’s when someone was killed on an NWCE, though it wasn't clear if it related to window hanging or other activity (for one his camera hadn't been used). The result of this was bars over windows... something i’d consider a good substitute today (it worked ok for 3 years on Barrow with the 37/4s until Jan 2019).

 

Whilst not condoning hanging out at speed, but standing by an open window, feeling the air, smelling the steam and hearing the locomotive was what mainline steam was all about.

 

Ive not done UK mainline steam since Wootton Bassett, and a lot of people seem to have likewise as railtour stock lengths have become notably shorter. Prior to this I would travel around a dozen a year.. barely sitting down for a moment on any of them. For me an era spanning 30 years ended in the UK then.

 

The product now is just a money machine. One of the operators is even touting the option of dividends in the future. What I don't understand though is why go for a ride on a steam train, when the windows are sealed, aircons... you cant hear it, smell it and all to often if your onboard you don't get chance to see it either... no wonder they get away with diesels on the back, apart of the shove, you couldn't tell...

 

Sadly I see a future where Thomas the tank is put on the front of 12 Mk3 coaches and pushed over Shap, then stops on Ribblehead whilst a smoke generator puffs out some clouds, plays an electronic whistle before the diesel pushes it on. 

 

I concentrate on photography, preserved railways, overseas and an ever expanding model railway collection instead.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by adb968008

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

Sorry what sign? The one often next to the sign which says lean out and open the door from the outside?

 

There is usually a caveat to when it is not a good idea to lean out.

 

If I was leaning out of the window whilst stationary at a errrrr..... station and was asked to put my head back indoors, I would have drawn their attention to the above.

 

 

 

[Reorte]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Theres only 1 precedent to this in railtours, which was the mid1990’s when someone was killed on an NWCE, though it wasn't clear if it related to window hanging or other activity (for one his camera hadn't been used). The result of this was bars over windows... something i’d consider a good substitute today (it worked ok for 3 years on Barrow with the 37/4s until Jan 2019).

 

 AIUI the Cumbrian Coast line has more limited clearance than usual, and trains running on it a long time ago had bars on the windows too (back when if something was done for safety reasons there must've been a very high risk indeed).

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

 AIUI the Cumbrian Coast line has more limited clearance than usual, and trains running on it a long time ago had bars on the windows too (back when if something was done for safety reasons there must've been a very high risk indeed).

Similarly, the North London Line, back as far as the 1951 electric stock. But, the older stock had sliding doors that could be, and were, opened on summer days whilst the train was in motion. Ditto the NER and LNER Tyneside stocks. People then were brought up to respect the railway. But equally, the world had a much more practical view of safety then. Now, anything remotely risky gets labelled as "dangerous" whether or not it is. And when it isn't, safety is called into disrepute.

 

Jim

[phil-b259]

On 08/05/2019 at 07:22, Zomboid said:

If the rule is "don't lean out of the window" then that is clear and enforceable to everyone. If you start creating exceptions then it opens the door for liberties to be taken, misunderstandings to occur, and someone to lean out of the window on a non-platform side and have their head taken off. And too many of those will lead to the removal of all droplight fitted carriages from the network.

 

Too late it already has!

 

The ORR have made it Crystal clear they WILL NOT permit the use of external handbells and lowerable windows past 2023 (IIRC) on ANY ROLLING STOCK  - and cite the example of the Hastings DMU as how its perfectly possible to fit central door locking to Mk1s (they are less than happy with the 'garden gate bolt solution' used by many charter operators) thus allowing internal handles to be installed and the restriction of opening windows.

 

Charter train companies need to start paying attention as they days of gaining exemptions for the doors and toilets that discharge onto the track are coming to an end

[phil-b259]

On 08/05/2019 at 08:00, locoholic said:

That is exactly the idiotic mentality that is so annoying - ignore the actual situation in order to make it easier for the jobsworths. There is no risk whatsoever from leaning out of a stationary train window at a platform, but we'll ban it anyway. That is only one step away from insisting that every passenger remains seated for the duration of the journey, except for when they absolutely must go to the toilet. In fact, we'll install lockable seat belts to make absolutely sure.

 

There is no need for that - you simply retrofit central door locking and fix the window so it cannot be opened more than 6 inches. This is what the ORR are demanding and the Hastings diesels lot prove it can be done to Mk1 stock at modest cost.

[phil-b259]

On 08/05/2019 at 17:33, The Stationmaster said:

An interesting point here is the pace at which droplight fitted stock is vanishing anyway - and HSTs apart there isn't too much of it left except on privately owned excursion sets using earlier vehicles but which also have stewards to keep an eye on things.

 

Thats primarily because the ORR want them gone and thanks to the forthcoming disability regulations have the perfect tool to make it happen.

[Oldddudders]

Coroners have always taken a dim view of passengers/customers dying on the railway. In the halcyon days of slam-door suburban stock - a 10-EPB had an awful lot of slam doors on the platform side, not to mention the other one! - platform staff were, once they had given the guard the tip to go, instructed to shout "Stand away there!" to anyone attempting to join the train, be it stationary or moving. Effectively, if that shout were uttered (and corroborated in court) then the railway was largely exonerated of blame for death or injury. 

 

The unfamiliarity of droplights and slam doors in 2019 no doubt goes a long way towards making operators disproportionately uneasy, not assisted, as has been said already, by the headless-chicken (sorry) behaviour of a small but extremely visible minority.   

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

There is no need for that - you simply retrofit central door locking and fix the window so it cannot be opened more than 6 inches. This is what the ORR are demanding and the Hastings diesels lot prove it can be done to Mk1 stock at modest cost.

And i think this is a perfectly acceptable solution. The LT 4TC is not too dissimilar. 

 

It would seem though, the cheaper cost is to acquire mk3’s, than upgrading mk1’s.  However I refer back to..l if you cant See it, Hear it, Smell it or Touch it...

 

 You've only got the sense of taste left, which is where much of the money lies...   I take Rovosrail as an example... luxiourious train but for the most part steam is the first or last mile.., its not for me, but its the future of steam.

 

i’m surprised that Warner Brothers /WCRC have considered licensing other owners of Halls to run as 5972 Hogwarts Castle.. there’d be quite a bit of money impersonating a red hall.

 

Remember mainline steam is no longer about a bunch of enthusiasts working free to restore an engine, and selling tickets to like minded enthusiasts to hopefully break even.

Its a business, with employees run to make a profit, just like any other rail service, but enjoys perks of sympathy from the Network operators, with respect to derogations, delays etc.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by adb968008

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Similarly, the North London Line, back as far as the 1951 electric stock. But, the older stock had sliding doors that could be, and were, opened on summer days whilst the train was in motion. Ditto the NER and LNER Tyneside stocks. People then were brought up to respect the railway. But equally, the world had a much more practical view of safety then.

 

Practical, or more of a acceptance of people being getting injured or killed being a part of life?

 

[jim.snowdon]

10 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Practical, or more of a acceptance of people being getting injured or killed being a part of life?

 

Or, as one now retired Railway Inspector put it, more of mother telling little Jonnie that if he played in te doors and fell out, she wasn't going to come after him. For a long time, people accepted that if you did something stupid and (in this context) fell out of the train, it was your own fault, not that of the railway company for building trains you could fall out of. Or, as a poster once spotted in an INdian Railways office, directed at staff, said - Rule 1 - Safety starts with YOU! .

 

Jim

[The Evil Bus Driver]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

And i think this is a perfectly acceptable solution. The LT 4TC is not too dissimilar. 

 

It would seem though, the cheaper cost is to acquire mk3’s, than upgrading mk1’s.  However I refer back to..l if you cant See it, Hear it, Smell it or Touch it...

 

 You've only got the sense of taste left, which is where much of the money lies...   I take Rovosrail as an example... luxiourious train but for the most part steam is the first or last mile.., its not for me, but its the future of steam.

 

i’m surprised that Warner Brothers /WCRC have considered licensing other owners of Halls to run as 5972 Hogwarts Castle.. there’d be quite a bit of money impersonating a red hall.

 

Remember mainline steam is no longer about a bunch of enthusiasts working free to restore an engine, and selling tickets to like minded enthusiasts to hopefully break even.

Its a business, with employees run to make a profit, just like any other rail service, but enjoys perks of sympathy from the Network operators, with respect to derogations, delays etc.

 

4VEP stock had windows that only opened 6 inches or so, and for the last few years had a bit of an odd situation where every alternate window had bars

 and the window could open fully. These had internal door catches too, unlike CIG, CEP and BEP type stock, where you leaned out to open the door. I can see it now "Oi don;t lean out of the window". The reply to the steward being "Ok clever clogs, so how am I supposed to open the door to get off the train?"

Edited May 10, 2019 by The Evil Bus Driver

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, The Evil Bus Driver said:

4VEP stock had windows that only opened 6 inches or so, and for the last few years had a bit of an odd situation where every alternate window had bars

 and the window could open fully. These had internal door catches too, unlike CIG, CEP and BEP type stock, where you leaned out to open the door. I can see it now "Oi don;t lean out of the window". The reply to the steward being "Ok clever clogs, so how am I supposed to open the door to get off the train?"

 

Given rudamentary secondary door locking (the garden gate bolt) MUST be applied by the Stweard AT ALL TIMES (as a condition of the charter train company being allowed to operate by the ORR) unless the train is SPECIFICALLY timetabled to call at a station then the steward is not going to be that stupid.

 

What they might do is tell the passenger to not lean out of the window if the train is still moving or if the train is cleared for departure.

 

This is precisely because as far as the ORR see it, the steward is a manual form of central door locking - they are only allowed to permit folk to lean out of the window to board or alight. As soon as the doors are locked for departure or until they are unlocked (stewards usually get radio messages from the guard telling them when the doors may be opened) then passengers must be kept away.

 

They believe  ONLY justification for placing any part of your body outside the train is to alight where traditional train doors are used.

 

Sticking  your head out to see what is going on or to listen to a loco pulling away (or any other of the excuses enthusiasts use) cuts no ice with the authorities.

 

Look, it doesn’t matter what you or any other enthusiast think, the ORR make the rules and they have had enough of enthusiasts pleading poverty.

 

You want to plan on the mainline that means playing by mainline rules - which includes removing the need for traditional full depth drop light windows in favour of central door locking and internal handles.

 

Charter stock owners have been given notice - they need to act now if they still want to be in business five years hence.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

4 hours ago, The Evil Bus Driver said:

These had internal door catches too, unlike CIG, CEP and BEP type stock, where you leaned out to open the door. I can see it now "Oi don;t lean out of the window". The reply to the steward being "Ok clever clogs, so how am I supposed to open the door to get off the train?"

 

That's where the attempt at trying to specify the minutae of every acceptable behaviour fails, and why absoutism just draws scorn and makes the world a crappier place for most. I just wish that the "appeal to authority" types would realise how much they're not helping matters with their dogmatic attitude. Working to destroy respect for the rules really does not increase compliance.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Reorte

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Sticking  your head out to see what is going on or to listen to a loco pulling away (or any other of the excuses enthusiasts use) cuts no ice with the authorities..

...

Charter stock owners have been given notice - they need to act now if they still want to be in business five years hence.

 

 

Theres a difference between leaning out of and standing by an open window.

 

I think charter stock owners have got the message.. they are adapting to survive, at least some of them. The mk3 will probably play a much bigger role in the future. 

 

The mainline peaked for enthusiasts in 2008-2011, its been in decline ever since. At the same time the target market for clientel will be different in the future, that one hasn't peaked yet and will be considerably more lucrative, hence those cries for poverty should no longer apply... the Role model of Belmond will apply to many more steam tours, indeed steam around my gaff is about to get much more interesting starting in 2 weeks time when the weekly evening diner service starts from Waterloo round Surrey.. eventually the Brighton Belle is to come...

The day of the bacon butty railtour is over, meals on wheels is the future, £35-£85  for a one way from Waterloo to Windsor, via Brentford at 30mph.. it even goes from the same Platform 19 too, Oystercards not accepted. I’d imagine this will be popular with tourists.. they just need paint the B1 red and put 5972 on it.

Edited May 10, 2019 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Theres a difference between leaning out of and standing by an open window.

 

I think charter

 

I appreciate that - but one fatality is one too many. An open window presents a far too tempting opportunity for some - and don't kid yourself humans are very good at telling themselves it won't happen to them!

 

The 'amber gambler' who gets away with it 'all the time'...except the one time they don't, the person who doesn't get someone to foot a ladder when doing DIY because 'its never fallen over before'...except the one time it does, the person who doesn't wear safety glasses while buh trimming because 'I never get anything in my eye'.... except the one time they do.

 

If a railway enthusiast who had secured a train maintenance job with Siemens and who was actively involved in the Heritage railway, and thus was supposedly even better informed than an ordinary enthusiast managed to do it at Balham - then so too can regular enthusiasts on a steam excursion.

 

Again to point here is not so much saving a person from their own stupidity - its stopping others e.g. train drivers, stewards, other passengers, bystanders (at stations) , track workers, the family and friends of the deceased, etc from having to deal with the Trauma afterwards, Trauma that last for years if not decades.....

[adb968008]

28 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I appreciate that - but one fatality is one too many. An open window presents a far too tempting opportunity for some - and don't kid yourself humans are very good at telling themselves it won't happen to them!

 

 

An open window that doesnt open more than 6 inches is not going to see anyones head out...  the ORR in your own post said the Hasting unit proposal is acceptable, and I agree with it.

 

theres nothing more to save here, if your suggesting only permanently sealed windows is the only safe option... then your creating risk unnecessarily,. Old stock that isnt air conditioned creates heat on a hot day that can pose risk to life... trains without toilets can pose greater risk to life.

Weve seen several “instinct to survive” events were uninformed passengers have had to break windows or force doors to abandon a train after being stranded for hours and walk on the track to safety.

 

Indeed passengers becoming ill on board have few if any emergency treatments available.. I think if theres spare money for reducing risk from 3 “window” events in 50 years since steam started in 1971 to zero, two of which were on scheduled service trains... then theres better life saving risk reductions  still to be had on the railways.

 

Blocking windows yes, but stopping people from standing seems extreme, especially when millions everday on schedule services have no choice but to stand.

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by adb968008