LNWR London Road - Locomotives and rolling stock

[Jol Wilkinson]

There seem to be a thousand and one small parts on the underframe etch...

A slight exaggeration, but yes and they all have a purpose. It is an outside bearing Cleminson underframe, so there are the parts for that, plus overlays for the hornguides, etc. The spring rubber cushion bushes are made up of several etched "washers", which could have been done as small lost wax brass castings, but that would have added to the cost.

 

Of course, on the number of parts per £ and therefore build value, it does rank quite well.

[Guy Rixon]

A slight exaggeration, but yes and they all have a purpose. It is an outside bearing Cleminson underframe, so there are the parts for that, plus overlays for the hornguides, etc. The spring rubber cushion bushes are made up of several etched "washers", which could have been done as small lost wax brass castings, but that would have added to the cost.

 

I like the idea of simulating the rubber bushes with stacks of washers; easier than drilling out castings to thread on wire. And much neater than wonky whitemetal.

 

I'm interested in how the underframe allows for track twist. I can see how the trucks for the outer wheels are attached to a wire each and how those wires threads through the centre truck, but not how the wires attach to the fixed frame or how the weight is transferred to the trucks.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Guy,

 

I'll try to explain and will follow up with some photos during the build. I've attached a side view photo of the underside of the U/F but it doesn't show all the details.

 

 

There are three "trucks". The outer two pivot/rotate about a bolt and one has a pair of ears that reach up to the underside of the floor. So that one can rock for and aft but not side to side. It also has a thick brass wire that passes through a horizontal slot and into a hole in the centre truck. So these two can rock up and down about the outer pivot and the centre one can also rock from side to side about the wire. The other outer truck can rock in any direction about its pivot and also has a brass wire that goes into a hole in the centre truck.. The centre truck is restrained fore and aft by fold down "fingers" from the floor but can still move side to side.

 

Hence one outer truck acts like a fixed axle in a compensated underframe, the other outer like the rocking axle, while the centre axle can move side to side and move up and down pivoting around the outer "fixed" axles pivot.

 

This is more complicated than Bill Bedfords simple sliding centre axle system for six wheel underfames, but was designed to cope with 00, EM and P4, taking into account that 00 layouts will probably have smaller radius curves .

Edited November 4, 2018 by Jol Wilkinson

[Compound2632]

Guy,

 

I'll try to explain and will follow up with some photos during the build. I've attached a side view photo of the underside of the U/F but it doesn't show all the details.

 

LNWR 6W underframe.jpg

 

There are three "trucks". The outer two pivot/rotate about a bolt and one has a pair of ears that reach up to the underside of the floor. So that one can rock for and aft but not side to side. It also has a thick brass wire that passes through a horizon at slot and into a hole in the centre truck. So these two can rock up and down about the outer pivot and the centre one can also rock from side to side about the wire. The other outer truck can rock in any direction about its pivot and also has a brass wire that goes into a hole in the centre truck.. The centre truck is restrained fore and aft by fold down "fingers from" the floor but can still move side to side.

 

Hence one outer truck acts like a fixed axle in a compensated underframe, the other outer like the rocking axle, while the centre axle can move side to side and move up and down pivoting around the outer "fixed" axles pivot.

 

This is more complicated than Bill Bedfords simple sliding centre axle system for six wheel underfames, but was designed to cope with 00, EM and P4, taking into account that 00 layouts will probably have smaller radius curves .

 

Thanks - that's clearer than it sounds... I think the Slaters Midland 6-wheel coaches have a similar arrangement, but with inside bearings to the wheels. However, I'm yet to bring one to successful completion - not a comment on the effectiveness of the design so much as the point at which I cam to a stop a couple of decades ago.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Compound2632

[Jol Wilkinson]

Stephen,

 

it's a Cleminson underframe design so may be what Slaters followed too. Brassmasters also do  a universal kit, but the LRM one was designed to include the LNWR outside hornguides, etc.

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

A bit of progress today.  I folded up the underframe, adding the hornguide overlays and bufferbeams.

 

 

This shows the three "trucks" folded up and the mounting plate for the end one that is free to pivot side to side as well as fore and aft. An etched "domed" washer will be soldered onto the mounting plate to give enough freedom of movement.

 

 

No more tomorrow as we are attending a family 130th birthday lunch (one B.I.L. is 70, the other is 60).

[N15class]

Looks good but why go to such a great complicated set up. In 4mm mount the wheels on a 2mm tube. Put the tide on an appropriately sized axel. The centre axle will have enough lateral movement for most layouts. If compensation is required put a rocking axle at one end a spring wire on the centre one. Bill Bedford wrote about it somewhere. But works a treat and easier than trying to get 3 subframes to move in different directions.

[Compound2632]

Looks good but why go to such a great complicated set up. In 4mm mount the wheels on a 2mm tube. Put the tide on an appropriately sized axel. The centre axle will have enough lateral movement for most layouts. If compensation is required put a rocking axle at one end a spring wire on the centre one. Bill Bedford wrote about it somewhere. But works a treat and easier than trying to get 3 subframes to move in different directions.

 

But as Jol has mentioned, does this method get the vehicle round a second radius curve in 00? I appreciate that Jol's P4 models don't face that challenge, nor, I suppose, do yours, and you might reasonably consider such a requirement an absurdity.

[Guy Rixon]

Jol - thanks, it makes sense now.

 

Peter - I agree that the Cleminson is more complex than the Bedford system, but I bet it's easier to build. No spring carriers to make up and no need to pull wheelsets apart. More work for the designer, of course. I've built a chassis using Bill's method and it's OK but not particularly quick.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Looks good but why go to such a great complicated set up. In 4mm mount the wheels on a 2mm tube. Put the tide on an appropriately sized axel. The centre axle will have enough lateral movement for most layouts. If compensation is required put a rocking axle at one end a spring wire on the centre one. Bill Bedford wrote about it somewhere. But works a treat and easier than trying to get 3 subframes to move in different directions.

Peter,

 

what we might see as a realistic option for a scratchbuild/kit bash, etc. in EM or P4 doesn't always suit a multi gauge kit "solution".

 

I have a six wheel chassis on a Mallard/Blacksmith LNWR WCJS Fish van built many years ago with one fixed axle and a inside bearing bogie made from tubes "a la Sharman". It works well but would be a little difficult to design as a kit with brake gear, etc. The LNWR underframe for the kit may seem complex but provides an accurate (I think) model, is straightforward to build despite the number of bits and works well. Putting more effort into designing the kit can make it easier for the builder (see my comments above about the BS LNWR Boff van kit).

 

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

But as Jol has mentioned, does this method get the vehicle round a second radius curve in 00? I appreciate that Jol's P4 models don't face that challenge, nor, I suppose, do yours, and you might reasonably consider such a requirement an absurdity.

Stephen, 

 

what radius is that in "proper" modelling terms? For 00 I try to get my designs to work  at 24" radius but there are often limitations in the prototype that make that difficult. With the six wheel underframe the answer for the smallest radius operation would be to go for inside bearings, but that makes for more drag. The backs of the cast axle boxes can be hollowed out so that ends of the outsize bearing pin points aren't the limiting factor, it is movement of the "trucks".

 

However, most modellers that will buy and build these sort of kits will be using more generous curves than Peco Set Track, Hornby or Bachmann provide. The newly announced EMGS/Peco track collaboration points are B6. IIRC an A5 is about 3ft radius which is probably the sharpest most builders might opt for.

 

Jol

[Compound2632]

Stephen, 

 

what radius is that in "proper" modelling terms? For 00 I try to get my designs to work  at 24" radius but there are often limitations in the prototype that make that difficult. With the six wheel underframe the answer for the smallest radius operation would be to go for inside bearings, but that makes for more drag. The backs of the cast axle boxes can be hollowed out so that ends of the outsize bearing pin points aren't the limiting factor, it is movement of the "trucks".

 

However, most modellers that will buy and build these sort of kits will be using more generous curves than Peco Set Track, Hornby or Bachmann provide. The newly announced EMGS/Peco track collaboration points are B6. IIRC an A5 is about 3ft radius which is probably the sharpest most builders might opt for.

 

Jol

 

Second radius is 438 mm or 17 1/4". I can hear you wincing from here - or is that the flanges squealing?

[Brassey]

The ability of these to negotiate curves is not just about the movement of the trucks themselves but the width between the valances that can restrict their movement.  For example, to put them on a plastic Ratio kit with unadjusted thick plastic valances set to OO means the centre set have hardly any room to move at all.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The ability of these to negotiate curves is not just about the movement of the trucks themselves but the width between the valances that can restrict their movement.  For example, to put them on a plastic Ratio kit with unadjusted thick plastic valances set to OO means the centre set have hardly any room to move at all.

Very true, although I didn't know Ratio did any six wheel coach kits. Slaters did the MR six wheelers,  but they are no longer available in 4mm AFAIK (they went to Coopercraft, where they are still listed,). The Brassmasters  "Universal" Cleminson underframe kit that has an inside bearing option for the centre axle which might help with thicker solebars. 

 

The LRM kit is specifically LNWR and designed for their 30' 1" and 32' six wheel carriage kits, so doesn't really suit other prototypes.

[Brassey]

I’ve been working on building some of the Ratio GWR 4 wheelers as 6 wheel but they need a new chassis with slimmer solebars to get them to work. I’ve done some with adapted Mainly Trains underframes. I have a stash of the Brassmasters Cleminsons for these and for IKB 6 wheelers which are a bigger challenge. I have a thread on here somewhere and will post a link on when I’m off the mobile.

Jol, I also have some LRM 6 wheelers on the list too (and David Geen for which I have LRM u/frames) so will watch this build with interest. All I need is time to build them! Peter

 

Edit for link: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72342-lnwr-coaches-gwr-coaches/

Edited November 15, 2018 by Brassey

[polybear]

Slaters did the MR six wheelers,  but they are no longer available in 4mm AFAIK (they went to Coopercraft, where they are still listed,).

 

......Just don't try buying them (unless you can use Paypal), cos' you might just lose your money.......

[Brassey]

I believe the Slaters 4mm kits have returned to Slaters

[Jol Wilkinson]

I believe the Slaters 4mm kits have returned to Slaters

I thought so too, but other than the LNER/NER 20T hopper wagon kit, there are no 4mm kits listed on their website.

[jwealleans]

Some of the wagon kits have been available via Powsides for some time. The 20T hopper was the obvious kit to relaunch on the back of the Hornby Q6. They may not be so concerned with getting the others out in a rush.

[Jol Wilkinson]

D425 underframe completed. Buffers and couplings will be added after painting.

 

 

First stage in building the body, etched in .012" brass. Vents soldered to doors, sides "formed" and soldered to ends, steps added.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

The body is now complete after adding door hinges, grab rails, etc. The hinges were a bit fiddly as one or two holes were etched a bit undersized and the lower hinges are rather small. The upper hinges are etched as a pair on a bar, so easier to manage. Just the roof to do and then back in the box to await painting.

 

 

So what next. I'll get on with the 45 ft Family Saloon etch design for John at LRM as that will also enable me to etch the new ends for the Boff Van. As to the next kit to build there are several options in the kit stack that come to mind, including the LNWR Mansion House 2-4-2T, a 247 Developments D214 50ft corridor coach, a BS 50ft  Cove Roof Milk Van (comparable design concepts to the Boff Van) and a couple of LRM 42ft non corridor coaches. I am drawn to the Mansion House Tank and one of the LRM coaches first as they will be more straightforward. I also have a set of side/end etches on order for a  Worsley Works 42ft WCJS coach to include in the set twith the 12 wheel diner, but when those will turn up is anyone's guess.

[Brassey]

Jol, would it be possible to add some additional etches for the Boff Van/Milk Van ends for us mere mortals who don't have access to such things?

 

I've ordered quite a few things from Worsley and all have turned up.  No complaints from me.

 

Peter

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol, would it be possible to add some additional etches for the Boff Van/Milk Van ends for us mere mortals who don't have access to such things?

 

I've ordered quite a few things from Worsley and all have turned up.  No complaints from me.

 

Peter

Peter,

 

I can add some items to a test etch sheet as there is usually space (although I don't yet know how much) but it's probably not worth adding them to a production tool. The test tool will also include a new gangway design I am working on. So it will be a one off, as it is for another manufacturers kit and I can't guess how many LRM might sell. How many do you want?

 

The etches from WW have been on order for about eighteen months, but I remain hopeful.

 

Jol

[Brassey]

Peter,

 

I can add some items to a test etch sheet as there is usually space (although I don't yet know how much) but it's probably not worth adding them to a production tool. The test tool will also include a new gangway design I am working on. So it will be a one off, as it is for another manufacturers kit and I can't guess how many LRM might sell. How many do you want?

 

The etches from WW have been on order for about eighteen months, but I remain hopeful.

 

Jol

 

Hi Jol,

 

I've PM'd you regarding the van ends.  

 

IIRC I did wait quite some time (18 months sounds about right) for a LNWR 45' break composite from WW of which I'd ordered 2 but only one turned up in the end but that was better than nothing.  GWR items arrived quicker possibly within a week.  I also had a bespoke item etched which was produced relatively quicker than the 45' coach that was listed on the website. I don't mind the wait as I have enough on my build list to be getting on with.

 

Peter

[Jol Wilkinson]

The D425 is now ready to go back into a box, awaiting painting and lining. I'll fit the door handles after that so they don't get in the way of lining out.

 

 

I'll be at the  Portsmouth show on Saturday (well recommended if you can get there) and hope to hear some good news on the LNWR 0-4-2 Crane Tank and the 0-4-0T. I've done a bit on the artwork for the LNWR 45 ft clerestory roof family saloon and should be able to pick up the underframe etch for  that too, so I can finish the body design.