HS2 under review

[Ron Ron Ron]

The proposed design of HS2, with spurs off to serve other places, requires a fleet of normal loading gauge trains and another fleet of larger trains for journeys solely using HS2. This is obviously inefficient.......

 

 

Why is it inefficient to use trains optimised to take advantage of the larger loading gauge on HS2?

A captive fleet dedicated to serve the main markets within the HS2 infrastructure, would never need to be used elsewhere and presents an opportunity for providing higher passenger capacity, including the possibility of double-deck trains, unencumbered by the British classic network loading gauge.

 

Dedicated train fleets exist all over our rail network, although they usually could be used elsewhere.

There are also route restrictions that prevent certain types of train operating on particular routes and lines.

 

 

.

[edcayton]

It's beyond time that we stopped encouraging people to travel so much by any means. Perhaps they should "ration by price" the new line?

 

Ed

[Edwin_m]

The proposed design of HS2, with spurs off to serve other places, requires a fleet of normal loading gauge trains and another fleet of larger trains for journeys solely using HS2. This is obviously inefficient, and I believe the latest news is that the whole fleet should conform to the normal UK loading gauge to maximise flexibility, so the route could be altered to save money and serve more places. Yet another example of the project changing so that it no longer makes sense.

Are you saying it was inefficient before or it doesn't make sense now, or that it is now efficient but doesn't make sense any longer? 

 

The classic compatible fleet would be a very non-standard design so it makes sense to order all that might ever be needed at the same time.  Captive units will be standard designs as used in Europe so can be ordered in relatively small quantities, as near to off the shelf as you get with a train. 

[Edwin_m]

Meadowbank certainly wouldn't be the right place for the South Yorkshire HS2 station as it is in Edinburgh ! The proposal was for Meadowhall.

 

Stopping at the existing Sheffield station would of course maintain the wide range of connections available there now, plus it would give Sheffield high quality, high speed services, not just to London but also Birmingham, and Leeds and points north. However, why resiting the station like this necessitates demolishing houses in Mexborough, several miles from Meadowhall but even further from Sheffield, I'm not entirely sure.

Looking at the maps on the HS2 website, the line needs to squeeze between Mexborough and Consiborough and the new estate appears to be blocking the small gap between the two.  Alternatives would be to go through one of the existing historic towns or make a big diversion to go east or west of both, which is probably causes more problems elsewhere (and will no doubt have been looked at as an option).  The proximity of the deep Don valley would appear to make a tunnelling option impossible.  All in all probably better to announce that part of new estate (that people are only just moving into) is likely to be demolished in a few years time, rather than plough through a community where people are more established. 

[Colin_McLeod]

The Blythfield curve linking Belfast Central station with Belfast Great Victoria Street involved the demolition of some brand new houses. Despite the best efforts of the DOE(NI) to try to use this to pour cold water on the project NIR approached the householders directly and discovered that they had been moved from their former community on the nearby Donegal Road. So NIR bought a plot on the Donegal Road and got new houses built there. The householders were delighted to get back to their former area, the new curve was built and everyone was happy. The moral of the story is that there are always solutions and perhaps some of the problems highlighted for HS2 are not so insurmountable as the objectors make out.

[Joseph_Pestell]

At the latest Inotrains there was a doubledeck coach to UK gauge and It looked good.

Interesting. Any weblinks for info?

 

Edit to add:

http://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/double-deck-concept-for-uk-loading-on-display-at-innotrans-exhibition/

 

Only a very brief summary with picture of top deck. It's the lower deck that's difficult within UK loading gauge. Pity that the design work has had to go out to a German firm.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Meadowbank certainly wouldn't be the right place for the South Yorkshire HS2 station as it is in Edinburgh ! The proposal was for Meadowhall.

 

Stopping at the existing Sheffield station would of course maintain the wide range of connections available there now, plus it would give Sheffield high quality, high speed services, not just to London but also Birmingham, and Leeds and points north. However, why resiting the station like this necessitates demolishing houses in Mexborough, several miles from Meadowhall but even further from Sheffield, I'm not entirely sure.

Yes, sorry about that. Realised in the middle of the night that I had typed Meadowbank instead of Meadowhall.

 

So far as I understand the new HS2 map, the idea is to bring Sheffield into it but only as a northern terminus rather than part of the through route. That does not seem to me as good for Sheffield as having a through station whether at Meadowhall or elsewhere.

[Jol Wilkinson]

It's beyond time that we stopped encouraging people to travel so much by any means. Perhaps they should "ration by price" the new line?

 

Ed

Doesn't that already happen?

 

Those that travel usually have little alternative such as commuting through house availability/cost. Business users can usually claim their travel expenses so the costs get passed down the line to the end customer. Leisure travelers are more flexible and can take advantage of less busy periods and cheaper fares.

 

The example of the M6 toll is a good one. Not as heavily used as one would expect because of the cost (or so I am informed by friends that live near it). When you look at the benefits it provides, compared to the cost of the Dartford crossing for example you can see why people are reluctant to use it. If you over price HS2 services, it won't benefit travellers in general. just those that can afford it or have little choice.

[jamie92208]

Yes, sorry about that. Realised in the middle of the night that I had typed Meadowbank instead of Meadowhall.

 

So far as I understand the new HS2 map, the idea is to bring Sheffield into it but only as a northern terminus rather than part of the through route. That does not seem to me as good for Sheffield as having a through station whether at Meadowhall or elsewhere.

As I've mentioned above there are studies ongoing for a northern link from Sheffield back to HS2 It was in one of the HS2 papers I read yesterday with a junction at IIRC Carlton (It certainly began with C). I think it said that the precise form of the junction had not been determined yet though it would obviously be grade separated.

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

The proposed design of HS2, with spurs off to serve other places, requires a fleet of normal loading gauge trains and another fleet of larger trains for journeys solely using HS2. This is obviously inefficient, and I believe the latest news is that the whole fleet should conform to the normal UK loading gauge to maximise flexibility, so the route could be altered to save money and serve more places. Yet another example of the project changing so that it no longer makes sense.

 

Nope - its your analysis that is flawed - not HS2.

 

Build a totally 'captive' fleet and you will be unable to serve places on the classic network

Build a totally 'classic compatible' fleet and you waste capacity on the brand new HS2 line which is designed to accommodate 2x double deck TGVs coupled together to cater for projected growth in passenger numbers (yes its the words 'extra capacity' again).

 

Hence the plan is to buy the 'classic compatible fleet' for phase 1 (which will initially be used on all services) - then buy the the 'captive' designs for phase 2. The 'captive' trains can then displace the 'classic compatible trains on runs to Birmingham to be re-deployed onto further services to destinations on the classic network. Doing it in this manor postpones the purchase of 'captive sets' to take advantage of a larger order and also reflects the situation that under phase 1, most trains will use HS2 for only part of their journey to the North West.

 

True, the 'classic compatible' sets will need to be a bespoke design - but for the 'captive' sets there are plenty of 'off the shelf' designs available from the likes of Siemens or Alstom which require no development costs at all.

Edited November 16, 2016 by phil-b259

[caradoc]

Some interesting points being made in this topic. I hadn't realised that Sheffield was to be served by a spur; I would have thought running the main HS2 line through Sheffield wouldn't be impossible, given that the Midland approach from the south was at one quadruple track but is now only double, and that the area alongside the Midland immediately north of Sheffield is not exactly salubrious ! 

 

Regarding the M6 Toll; I always use it when driving between Scotland and Oxford, because I consider the price worth paying to avoid the M6 through Birmingham, due to it being far less congested. Southbound, Norton Canes Services is also a convenient place for our last comfort stop.

[Colin_McLeod]

Only a very brief summary with picture of top deck. It's the lower deck that's difficult within UK loading gauge. Pity that the design work has had to go out to a German firm.

Why is it a "pity"? It makes sense to use a firm with relevant previous experience rather than starting from scratch using a firm that lacks such experience.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Colin_McLeod

[PaulCheffus]

Locally we will be having disruption to the roads for a period of 6 - 9 months while the ducting and cables for an offshore wind farm are installed. Instead of recognising the inevitable and turning the situation to their advantage (compensation for the community in terms of something for the Village Hall management fund, we had a lot of protest, ill feeling, etc. Result, the project will proceed as originally proposed and nowt for the community!

 

Hi

 

Where that happened near us the fund is only allowed to be in single amounts of £250. So for example the village arranged that the first 100 or so people to the Chip van got free Fish and Chips one week.

 

The village in question wanted to use some of the money to fund the streetlights as the council are discussing switching them off permanently but they were told it couldn't be used for that. So compensation might not be as good as you might think.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi

 

Where that happened near us the fund is only allowed to be in single amounts of £250. So for example the village arranged that the first 100 or so people to the Chip van got free Fish and Chips one week.

 

The village in question wanted to use some of the money to fund the streetlights as the council are discussing switching them off permanently but they were told it couldn't be used for that. So compensation might not be as good as you might think.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Paul,

 

thanks for that.

 

My comment was really more about Nimbyism and how it can be too short sighted. There are various other projects in this and adjoining villages that would have benefited the majority but were stamped on by aggressive and vocal minority.

 

It's difficult for some to see the bigger picture when they are directly affected but it also pays to be pragmatic, especially where large governmemt backed schemes are involved. You probably won't stop or materially alter it, so you have to find how you can get the most out of it at a local level.

 

Jol

[jamie92208]

Paul,

 

thanks for that.

 

My comment was really more about Nimbyism and how it can be too short sighted. There are various other projects in this and adjoining villages that would have benefited the majority but were stamped on by aggressive and vocal minority.

 

It's difficult for some to see the bigger picture when they are directly affected but it also pays to be pragmatic, especially where large governmemt backed schemes are involved. You probably won't stop or materially alter it, so you have to find how you can get the most out of it at a local level.

 

Jol

Very different where we are moving to in rural France. The two villages that are promoting a wind farm on spare ground between them stand to benefit to the tune of several thousand Euros per year into their respective council coffers. The only opposition I heard was from a load braying English woman who doesn't want her woodland walks disturbed. The wind farm will be on open land and won't be visible from most of our village. The French inhabitants are all for it. So am I.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

Paul,

 

thanks for that.

 

My comment was really more about Nimbyism and how it can be too short sighted. There are various other projects in this and adjoining villages that would have benefited the majority but were stamped on by aggressive and vocal minority.

 

It's difficult for some to see the bigger picture when they are directly affected but it also pays to be pragmatic, especially where large governmemt backed schemes are involved. You probably won't stop or materially alter it, so you have to find how you can get the most out of it at a local level.

 

Jol

 

We have a  similar sort of situation here in that our Neighbourhood Plan development fell into the hands of nimbys (all incomers as it happens) who decided to stop development of various sites and concentrate on others which they thought were 'better'.  Net result is that we lost a local car body repair firm, lost a filling station (whose competitive presence kept fuel prices down), lost the youth club, and other potential amenity sites are effectively under longer term notice.

 

The net result of all their efforts - the filling station site which they nominated for housing has been taken over by a firm specialising in developing accommodation for 'older people' so instead of having a percentage of affordable homes for younger folk that site won't yield any (these sort of developers don't have to provide them).  The law of unintended consequences seems to apply as much to the action of nimbys as anything else, and in our case with an even worse result.   Good job HS2 isn't coming our way because i hate to think what they'd try to do to that. 

[phil-b259]

Very different where we are moving to in rural France. The two villages that are promoting a wind farm on spare ground between them stand to benefit to the tune of several thousand Euros per year into their respective council coffers. The only opposition I heard was from a load braying English woman who doesn't want her woodland walks disturbed. The wind farm will be on open land and won't be visible from most of our village. The French inhabitants are all for it. So am I.

 

Jamie

 

The British disease unfortunately - Move somewhere nice then demand nothing ever changes (but conveniently forget all the changes that happened before you started living there).

[Glorious NSE]

Nope - its your analysis that is flawed - not HS2.

 

Build a totally 'captive' fleet and you will be unable to serve places on the classic network

Build a totally 'classic compatible' fleet and you waste capacity on the brand new HS2 line which is designed to accommodate 2x double deck TGVs coupled together to cater for projected growth in passenger numbers (yes its the words 'extra capacity' again).

 

Hence the plan is to buy the 'classic compatible fleet' for phase 1 (which will initially be used on all services) - then buy the the 'captive' designs for phase 2. The 'captive' trains can then displace the 'classic compatible trains on runs to Birmingham to be re-deployed onto further services to destinations on the classic network. Doing it in this manor postpones the purchase of 'captive sets' to take advantage of a larger order and also reflects the situation that under phase 1, most trains will use HS2 for only part of their journey to the North West.

 

True, the 'classic compatible' sets will need to be a bespoke design - but for the 'captive' sets there are plenty of 'off the shelf' designs available from the likes of Siemens or Alstom which require no development costs at all.

One of the interesting things is that leaving the EU seems to be being hinted by the politicians as now allowing HS2 to have high level platforms, if my understanding of how this works is right that would mean either the classic compatibles (and any other domestic trains running on it in the North) would need some kind of movable step to bridge the extra gap, or the 'captive' sets would need narrower bodyshells to match a UK body width - none of that would seem to be beyond what has already been achieved with HS train sets but it'll be interesting to see which way that goes.

 

Narrower 'captive' sets shouldn't preclude them being bilevels, but it would give you much less space inside to make that work...

 

 

[lmsforever]

Wish we were on the receiving end of some cash from HS2 I can think of many projects that need to be aided here in Aylesbury but it does not seem as we will get any at all.Maybe a wind farm would be a good thing here?

[Legend]

Some interesting points being made in this topic. I hadn't realised that Sheffield was to be served by a spur; I would have thought running the main HS2 line through Sheffield wouldn't be impossible, given that the Midland approach from the south was at one quadruple track but is now only double, and that the area alongside the Midland immediately north of Sheffield is not exactly salubrious ! 

 

Regarding the M6 Toll; I always use it when driving between Scotland and Oxford, because I consider the price worth paying to avoid the M6 through Birmingham, due to it being far less congested. Southbound, Norton Canes Services is also a convenient place for our last comfort stop.

Also use M6 toll . Unfortunately it just gets you to the traffic mess between Junctions 15 and 27 faster. Wonder if that area around Manchester will go into gridlock as people drive to join their new HS2 service from Manchester Airport. Need new roads I'm afraid

[frobisher]

The example of the M6 toll is a good one. Not as heavily used as one would expect because of the cost (or so I am informed by friends that live near it). When you look at the benefits it provides, compared to the cost of the Dartford crossing for example you can see why people are reluctant to use it.

It's the locals that are reluctant to use it, not those of us travelling longer distance. Because it is more lightly loaded (still busy) at the notorious choke point that is Birmingham (M6 there is insanely busy) if you're merely "passing through" it makes perfect sense for the few extra quid it costs.

[ess1uk]

It's the locals that are reluctant to use it, not those of us travelling longer distance. Because it is more lightly loaded (still busy) at the notorious choke point that is Birmingham (M6 there is insanely busy) if you're merely "passing through" it makes perfect sense for the few extra quid it costs.

And the A5 is free and I use that unless claiming the toll on expenses.

[Godfrey Glyn]

My sister-in-law is German and they live on the outskirts of a village near Frankfurt. The authorities have just built a by-pass round the village which passes about 150 metres from their house. I asked if there had been many objections and was told you could only object if the new development run across your land/property. Must make building new roads and railway lines much easier! No NIMBYs, only NOMOLs in Germany

Godfrey

[jamie92208]

My sister-in-law is German and they live on the outskirts of a village near Frankfurt. The authorities have just built a by-pass round the village which passes about 150 metres from their house. I asked if there had been many objections and was told you could only object if the new development run across your land/property. Must make building new roads and railway lines much easier! No NIMBYs, only NOMOLs in Germany

Godfrey

I'm not so sure. I seem to remember that their High Speed lines took an awful long time to get through the planning process. IIRC it was to do with the constitution which gives a lot of power to the Lande as a check and balance against the Federal Government. This is an obvious response to their history. Whether that just means that there are a lot of bureaucratic hoops or that individuals can slow down the process I don't know.

 

Jamie

Edited November 16, 2016 by jamie92208

[Godfrey Glyn]

I'm not so sure. I seem to remember that their High Speed lines took an awful long time to get through the panning process. IIRC it was to do with the constitution which gives a lot of power to the Lande as a check and balance against the Federal Government. This is an obvious response to their history. Whether that just means that there are a lot of beauracratic hoops or that individuals can slow down the process I don't know.

 

Jamie

 

I suspect that in my sister-in-law's case the bypass was built by Hessen rather than by the Federal Government which might explain things. i shall have to make a phone call!

Godfrey